Pintail trivia^

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DominiqueS
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Pintail trivia^

Post by DominiqueS » Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:11 pm

Would anyone know in which year the Pintail was first produced?

It has to be after 1985 (not in that year's catalog, available here:
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 85#p367244)

and before 1993 (I know of one). Thank you.
Last edited by DominiqueS on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pby5a
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Re: First Pintails

Post by pby5a » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:27 pm

I don't know, but thanks for that link!!

I love that pdf, my father has two Weekenders HC, with hatches and cords that is obviously, still in really really good nick. They must be about 20 years old. Very pretty kayaks, he uses them for the quiet inland waters of the Netherlands. If anybody has another link to info of the Weekenders, I'd love to have it.
Onno

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Jim
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Re: First Pintails

Post by Jim » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:30 pm

DominiqueS wrote:Would anyone know in which year the Pintail was first produced?

It has to be after 1985 (not in that year's catalog, available here:
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 85#p367244)

and before 1993 (I know of one). Thank you.
I think the first time I saw one was at a show in 1993, mind you it was also the first time I'd actually seen any sea kayak close up other than my mate's Anas Acuta's.....
I don't recall any big fuss about it being a new boat so I would agree with some time before 1993....

alan2222
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Re: First Pintails

Post by alan2222 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:40 pm

I paddled a Pintail at the first Scottish Sea Kayak Symposium at Lendalfoot in 1992.

Cheers

Alan
Pas de lieu Rhone que nous

DominiqueS
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Pintail trivia

Post by DominiqueS » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:08 pm

Thank you. Just heard of a 1991 in the US... we are getting there... between 1985 and 1991.

We know they changed in 1995 (higher back deck, less rounded hull, plus keyhole cockpit I believe) and then again sometime after 1999 (more overall volume?).

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wilsoj2
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by wilsoj2 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:48 pm

A bit more from same topic thread on the North Shore Paddlers Network board: http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=6188

I would love to see a chart/sheet of the development of Valley boats. Peter Orton mentioned doing one for the Valley site some time ago, but has not had the time.

alan2222
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by alan2222 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:27 pm

Hi Folks,

Duncan Winning did an excellent family tree tracing the lineage of many of our modern sea kayaks. I have a hard copy - not sure if it's available electronically. There's not much he doesn't know about the development and history of kayaks. He might be able to throw some light on this.

Cheers

Alan
Pas de lieu Rhone que nous

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by MikeB » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:34 pm

alan2222 wrote:Hi Folks,

Duncan Winning did an excellent family tree tracing the lineage of many of our modern sea kayaks. I have a hard copy - not sure if it's available electronically.
Ah, now that would be nice to have on UKRGB - could it be scanned or photgraphed?

Mike.

DominiqueS
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by DominiqueS » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:47 pm

Best to ask the author first...

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wilsoj2
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by wilsoj2 » Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:47 am

Does anyone have contact info or access to Frank Goodman? There has been much on various boards inquiring and speculating about the history and development of Valley boats. No one mentions contacting Goodman. Did I miss his passing?

I emailed Peter Orton this morning asking about the date of Pintail and other Valley boats. I will post what I hear back from him.

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by MikeB » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:29 pm

DominiqueS wrote:Best to ask the author first...
I did - and he was kind enough to give me a lot of info - now articled here including the "family tree".
wilsoj2 wrote:Does anyone have contact info or access to Frank Goodman? There has been much on various boards inquiring and speculating about the history and development of Valley boats. No one mentions contacting Goodman. Did I miss his passing?

I emailed Peter Orton this morning asking about the date of Pintail and other Valley boats. I will post what I hear back from him.
Did anything come of that contact?? I've also been in touch with Valley about some queries but no response.

Mike

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wilsoj2
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by wilsoj2 » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:29 pm

I have email into both Peter Orton and Aled Williams and have been awaiting response. Peter did respond with a promise to check on dates etc..., but has a lot on his plate at the moment ;-)

I might suggest some adjustments to the family tree. The Aquanaut and its kin were developed from the Avocet so might more accurately be placed as descending from the Pintail rather than the Nordkapp. In order it would be: Pintail, Avocet, Argonaut, Aquanaut. The Argonaut (a.k.a. Aquanaut HV) came before the Aquanaut which was first offered as a lower volume version of the Argonaut. In addition, Aled Williams has stated that the starting point for the NDK Romany was the Pintail, so the Romany and subsequently the Explorer could be placed on the tree descending from the Pintail.

Also, my understanding is that the Nordkapp H2O is a modification of the Jubilee, not the original ('Classic') Nordkapp. So the line of descent would be; Nordkapp, out of which came the Nordkapp Jubilee, out of which came the Nordkapp H2O. Though the H2O has a number of changes which differentiate it from the Jubilee, my understanding has been that the H2O designation was only used on this (American) side of the pond. http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... php?t=9711
Last edited by wilsoj2 on Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia

Post by MikeB » Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:58 pm

Cheers - yes, I'd have thought the family tree would be as you've described - I wouldn't presume to amend the work Duncan did though.

I'll link this thread from the article though.

Your "US perspective / understanding " on the H20 designation is useful.

Regs, Mike.

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wilsoj2
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Some useful Nordkapp info from Peter Orton et al

Post by wilsoj2 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:28 am

A few useful Nordkapp threads:

"The H20 label is not attached to UK Nordkapps. As far as I know it means 2 oval hatches. In the UK recent Nordkapps sold up to 2005 have had the Jubilee label Here is a 2004 model which I have paddled with 2 oval hatches". - http://www.paddling.net/message/showThr ... 850#443878

"...difficult for people to understand its lineage..."
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThr ... tid=381430

"Length should read the same as the full size Nordkapp. Classic is just the generic term we give to the old HS and HM versions of the Nordkapp i.e the pre-jubilee versions."
http://www.paddling.net/message/showThr ... 932#591864

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by MikeB » Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:51 am

I note even Peter Orton prolonging the error about what HS /HM means by referring to them as "hull standard" / "hull modified" in one of those posts.

Mike.

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wilsoj2
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by wilsoj2 » Sun Oct 04, 2009 2:00 pm

MikeB wrote:I note even Peter Orton prolonging the error about what HS /HM means by referring to them as "hull standard" / "hull modified" in one of those posts.

Mike.
Yes, it is surprising coming from Peter Orton. The error in what HM and HS stood for is so deeply ingrained that even though we all know that H2O was for Hatches 2 Oval, many fail to make the connection with HM/HS (Hatches, Modified hull/Hatches, Standard hull).

Honestly, I made the same mistake until seeing a friend's vintage Anas Acuta which has 'H' decals on deck indicating that it is one with hatches.

-Jim

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keith
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by keith » Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:29 pm

This pdf will explain everything!

http://bit.ly/bH1SH

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by MikeB » Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:55 pm

keith wrote:This pdf will explain everything!

http://bit.ly/bH1SH
LOL

That .pdf came from Arnold Kuiter a while back - can't recall exactly when, but I certainly referenced it in the Nordkapp article in 2008. He also sent me the full Valley catalogue for the same year - it's in the History page.

Seems as though hatches were optional on all the Valley boats of the era - as Jim mentions, the designation "H" being worthy of a sticker!

Looking at that brochure, it's also interesting to see what the well-dressed paddler wore in those days. None of this namby pamby dry suit stuff - they were clearly made of stern stuff back then.

Mike.

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keith
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by keith » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:03 pm

Yes - can't remember where I got the PDF from, but it was from this forum.

Re: Drysuit, some of us still refuse to use a namby pamby dry suit - the badge of a beginner / day triper to me and most of the gang I paddle with ;-)

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MikeB
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by MikeB » Sun Oct 04, 2009 7:26 pm

keith wrote:Yes - can't remember where I got the PDF from, but it was from this forum.

Re: Drysuit, some of us still refuse to use a namby pamby dry suit - the badge of a beginner / day triper to me and most of the gang I paddle with ;-)
Yep, Arnold sent it in response to the Nordy article in which I'd repeated the HS / HM = Hull Standard / Modified stuff - isn't it interesting how stuff which falls even within our own lifetimes (well, mine anyway) gets confused?

I look forward to reading the responses of the massed ranks of drysuit wearers - - -

Mike.

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Jim
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:28 am

MikeB wrote: I look forward to reading the responses of the massed ranks of drysuit wearers - - -

Mike.
Sod you hard nuts!

As a student I spent many winters paddling rivers (often in the snow) wearing ronhills, some non-cotton t-shirts and a thin woollen jumper under my leaky centre type cag (no waterproof trousers in those days).

I'm surprised I'm still alive, and there is no way I'm giving up my drysuit to fit in with a clique of nutters :-)

On the other hand, there are many situations where I don't need a full drysuit, indeed I that old leaky centre style cag (must be 20 years old now) often goes with me to be used as a wind shield on warm sunny days - and it does still get used.

Jim

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woody
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Re: Pintail trivia^

Post by woody » Mon Oct 05, 2009 12:16 pm

keith wrote: Re: Drysuit, some of us still refuse to use a namby pamby dry suit - the badge of a beginner / day triper to me and most of the gang I paddle with ;-)
I prefer to think of them as the badge of the warm and the comfy. As my old mate Maybanks used to say, "Any fool can suffer"

Woody
Rain rain we want rain

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