Anas Acuta Question?^

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Owen
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Anas Acuta Question?^

Post by Owen » Sun May 11, 2008 11:01 am

My friend has a very old Anas Acuta that he may sell. It has no bulkheads, hatches, deck lines or skeg and has leaky seams; so requires quite a bit of work to make it sea worthy.
I'm trying to figure out just how much work. The main question to those that have paddled this boat is how much skeg does in need? Some boats you hardly ever need one while other have to have the skeg down all the time; where does the Anas fit?

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al27
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Post by al27 » Sun May 11, 2008 5:14 pm

Guess mine is of the same era. It doesn't have a skeg (hatches, decklines or bulkheads), and most of the time its fine without. Force five and above and its a bit of a handful getting it to go downwind.
Would I put one in? No. I think the beauty of the boat is that its so simple.
Al.

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Post by TaysideTom » Sun May 11, 2008 9:55 pm

As I understand it the original Greenland model for the Anas had an integrated skeg, which was lost from the production models of this boat, so it could probably do with a little more skeg than it has. (The first and fifth kayak drawings on this page have integrated skegs, to show the kind of keel profile that you might expect: http://www.traditionalkayaks.com/fixeddrawings.html)

Paddling an Anas belonging to my club, which had a skeg retrofitted, I have tended to find that I want to use the skeg a lot of the time.

Looking at Harvey Golden's drawings of the twin to the Ken Taylor original of the Anas (plates 72 a and b of Kayaks of Greenland, there is quite a long keel at the back of the kayak, although not the kind of bulbous integrated skeg seen in some other West Greenland kayaks (eg. plate 65, which my own kayak is based upon). Bearing all that in mind, Inuit sometimes used strap-on skegs. So even if there isn't much skeg in the original, they still had ways of improving tracking in a following sea if they needed it.

Basically, a skeg is probably a good idea, and is not out of keeping with the original design of the kayak.

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Sun May 11, 2008 11:35 pm

No skeg. They handle just fine without them if you know how to paddle them. It's not as though you have much stern volume for kit as it as, why lose any more by fitting a skeg box?

What Tom says is not wrong, and if you get a chance to compare with a qaarsut you will be able to see what he is on about, but I really think fitting a skeg would be a bad choice, especially if he's basically tarting it up to sell

A rear bulkhead and Oval hatch are relatively easy to retrofit on account of the flat rear deck. I did this for a friend many years ago (it may have had the bulkhead already). The bow is best loaded past the footrest, or stick an airbag in if just out for the day.

Any idea how much he would be looking for? I don't really have anywhere to store it (could ask my boss nicely) but would not be adverse to getting hold of one in original(ish) condition as a day/playboat. What colour, and is the stern intact (some had them cut off level to fit rudders - yuk!). Obviously making it seaworthy is something I can do, allegedly, my Sea King keeps trying to prove otherwise (I blame Phil and Geoff for always choosing rocky beaches).

Jim

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Post by Windowshade » Mon May 12, 2008 12:02 am

I have several NDK and Valley kayaks. When I take out one or other of them, I have to adjust my paddling (e.g. Nordkapp vs. Greenlander). However, when I paddle my Anas Acuta, I have to shift gears more fundamentally than with any other boat.

More than anything else what's different is the high degree of rocker and the effect this has on directional stability. The Anas Acuta is the only boat I can turn smartly without putting it on edge. (It's like paddling a banana!)

I do not use the skeg on my Anas Acuta to improve tracking (except in a following sea). However, the ability to deploy the skeg in quartering and beam seas gives me considerable comfort. I view the Anas Acuta as a challenging boat. A skeg makes paddling easier when conditions get tough.

Malcolm

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Fantastic wee boats

Post by Snowghillie » Mon May 12, 2008 4:36 pm

Owen I have a soft spot for them as I used one as a teaching boat twenty years or more ago. There were a few basic boats sold off years ago from city councils outdoor education and your friends boat could be one of them. Many people moulded on an extra length of skeg and a few fitted a simple skeg in the very end of the boat like the one in the Tayside boat Tom was talking about. This was done by making a small bulkhead in the very stern and fitting a skeg of stainless steel which drops under its own weight and is controlled by a cord. It was very effective and simple and did not use up valuable room. Without a skeg its fine if you accept that it requires more skill and you with track a slightly zig-zag course in a big following sea. It is nothing like a Quarsut or a Bahiya to paddle even though they appear a bit similar. The "Q" is turny with the skeg up skidding round the bow as its fine bow digs in. The "B" is a beast to turn without your ear in the water and the Anus turns anyway you want pivoting at the middle. It was a sad day our club sold of the Anus because of lack of space depriving new paddlers of a real twitchy Greenland experience.

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The Wrong "Q"

Post by Snowghillie » Mon May 12, 2008 4:41 pm

Sorry I got the Q wrong I was talking about the Valley boat which was suposed to be a bigger Anus but handled very differently.

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Post by Owen » Mon May 12, 2008 8:12 pm

Jim wrote: Any idea how much he would be looking for? I don't really have anywhere to store it (could ask my boss nicely) but would not be adverse to getting hold of one in original(ish) condition as a day/playboat. What colour, and is the stern intact (some had them cut off level to fit rudders - yuk!). Obviously making it seaworthy is something I can do, allegedly, my Sea King keeps trying to prove otherwise (I blame Phil and Geoff for always choosing rocky beaches).

Jim
Its faded orange and the stern is intact and I got there first; sorry Jim. Feelings on the skeg are mixed to say the least, but I can leave that till later. At £105 for a basic Kari-tek wire skeg if I can get away without putting one in so much the better. Not fitting one also avoids having to do open heart surgery on the old hull, which I'm not sure about.

At the moment there's a fixed foam block down the centre line both fore and aft. I've got loads of bouyancy bags which I can stuff down the sides of the blocks so that's not a problem. I only want it for a day boat so if I can think of a way of fixing some decent deck lines I'd be happy paddling it like that for a while. I'll have to fix the seam first but shouldn't be a problem. I've fitted bulkheads before and I'm not to bothered about fitting hatch rims but I think a skeg would be a bit hard. I'll let you know how it goes.

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Mon May 12, 2008 11:19 pm

Owen wrote:Its faded orange and the stern is intact and I got there first; sorry Jim.
Ha ha, it would have made a nice pair with my orange Sea King, at a glance I would have had identical dayboat and expedition boat :-)

Try the valley topcleats for deck lines, I'm not 100% convinced they are strong enough for that and only use them for elastics, but looking at the plastic cleats on most other boats I'm sure they would be up to the normal standard.

I reckon if you were going to be tripping a skeg might be much more of an issue, but I think you already have an expedition boat, so the Anas Acuta would be more for playing in? In which case you will want that lively feel and practise at zigzagging in quartering seas (get it right and you can make as much speed made good as the guys battling on a straight course). I might be wrong, I guess the most important thing is that each of us should get their boat working the way they want it.

Jim

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Post by Owen » Thu May 15, 2008 12:16 pm

Went out for a paddle in her last night. We went from Limekilns on the Forth and went up river for about five miles and back again. There was a fair breeze from the south east which was on the rear quarter on the outward leg. This did make it skip about a bit, it picks up waves really easily but can broach just as quick. Turning is effortless in total contrast to my old Dawn Treader which is a real stright line boat. The seam isn't as bad as I first thought in fact it's dryer than the Treader.

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Experiences AnasAcuta with/without skeg

Post by renezee » Thu May 15, 2008 12:52 pm

Hi Owen,

I have an AnasAcuta, just as old as yours; but with hatches and bulkheads.
I paddled it during the 25 years I own it, without a variable skeg. So you certainly can paddle an AnasAcuta without a skeg.
Under certain conditions this will mean you have to work hard, when compared with your buddies paddling with a skeg.
Worst conditions for an AnasAcuta are 20 knots (or more)-winds in combination with low waves. In this situation the AA will weathercock quite a lot. You can compensate with extreem edging PLUS sweepstrokes.

Much better for an AnasAcuta is rough weather with high(er) waves: then she is "at home".
Under these conditions and because of her manoeuverability weathercocking is never a problem as she is easily turned whatever direction. The explanation is probably that in between waves the kayak is never constantly complete exposed to the wind.

Still, after years, I was struggling more and more with keeping up with buddies as more and more kayaks have variable skegs making that they could paddle on effortless while I "spilt" energy in correcting strokes.
As kayaks with skeg are rarely to be seen these days, I was in minority and so last year I decided to have a skeg built in.

I am very happy with this skeg which stands for relaxed paddling under all conditions. Of course the backcompartment lost space for packing. But as I have now another kayak as well, I will take another kayak if more cargo has to be taken along.

Good luck
René

PS
I also advice to give your AnasAcuta an external seam as extra. This because the sharp deck-edge can split open in dumping waves. Having internal and external seams creates a bombproof construction.

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Fibreglassing questions.

Post by Owen » Fri May 23, 2008 2:00 pm

The rear deck is almost flat, so to put a hatch rim in.
Cut a hole (scarry stuff) in the deck just big enough for the upright part of the rim to stick through but not the flange/horizontal bit.
Mix up some resin and talc to make a putty like paste. Spread this around the hole - on the inside of the boat - push the rim through the hole and press into the paste. Smooth off with a pallet knife and tidy it up. Let this set then, using short sections of glass tape, glass over the inside of the flange.

For those more used to fibreglass than I,
a) does this sound right?
b) Colloidal Silica, low density filler, glass bubbles, microballons, talc, what's the difference and which would be best? I have only 20g of colloidal silica and low density filler but 5kg of talc.

The front deck is curved, not so simple a job. One suggestion I've had is find a suitable sized bucket, use the bottom of this as a mold. Make a resess out of fibreglass. Fit the rim to this and then glass it into the boat. Anybody got any other ideas?

It does seem a pity to spoil the sleak lines of the decks with ugly black rubber hatches, but its not safe without bulkheads and I've not yet come across any other type of hatch that really works.

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al27
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Post by al27 » Fri May 23, 2008 3:22 pm

If it was my boat, I'd use sikaflex (292 or 291) to bed the hatch rim in. It would be much simpler (press it in; done..), and would allow for any flex way better than a polyester bog mix. If you do want to bed it in resin, use epoxy; polyester won't stick terribly well to 25 year old polyester.

What hatches are you using? I have various blanks for recesses and it would only take me half an hour to knock one out and chuck it in the post to you; you can then just bond it in with epoxy.

Alternative; removable bulkhead. Quite easy to make, and if you're using it as a day boay where you rarely put stuff in could make sense. If you're interested, I could take some photo's of one I did recently.

Al.

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Post by Owen » Fri May 23, 2008 6:00 pm

al27 wrote:If it was my boat, I'd use sikaflex (292 or 291) to bed the hatch rim in. It would be much simpler (press it in; done..), and would allow for any flex way better than a polyester bog mix. If you do want to bed it in resin, use epoxy; polyester won't stick terribly well to 25 year old polyester.

What hatches are you using? I have various blanks for recesses and it would only take me half an hour to knock one out and chuck it in the post to you; you can then just bond it in with epoxy.

Alternative; removable bulkhead. Quite easy to make, and if you're using it as a day boay where you rarely put stuff in could make sense. If you're interested, I could take some photo's of one I did recently.

Al.
New polyester not sticking to old polyester; that could be a problem I hadn't thought of. I haven't actually gotten around to buying any hatches or rims yet but was thinking of kayak-sport 25cm ones.
So far I've taken out the broken bar footrest and replaced it with an old set of keepers I had in the garage. I've replaced the rotten string on the toggles with new and jury rigged a deck line of sorts.
My next job is to do the external tape on the seams. I've just put the masking tape on ready for this. I've got 25mm tape to do this with, I was going to put this on with resin and then cover it with thickened flowcoat and black pigment. The resin and flowcoat I've got is polyester, will this be a big problem?
The idea of removerble bulkheads is intriguing I would like to see photo's of this; if its not to much trouble. How well do they seal?

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Post by al27 » Sat May 24, 2008 3:39 pm

Polyester for the outside seam is not so much of an issue; its mainly cosmetic, and as previously mentioned belt and braces type thing. My anas has no outside seam, and I have no probs with it. Just make sure you abrade well, and as close to the masking tape as possible.

The only boat I've got in the workshop at the moment with a removable bulkhead is a prototype one, but it will give you an idea.

Image
Image

Basically, I just layed up 2 flat panels of 4 layers of 300 CSM with a white gelcoat on a piece of glass and stuck them back to back whilst still wet. Cut the frame and bulkhead out, and set some captive nuts in the back of the frame. The frame was then just sikaflexed in on both sides. (I can go into a bit more detail if you want). Its pretty watertight (2 or 3 teaspoons after a day), and I'm sure could be made almost perfect with a rubber gasket. The only possible problem may be getting it past the seat, but it wouldn't be too hard to make the seat a removable affair.
I have blanks that fit the Kajaksport hatches, so laying up a blank for you to bond in would be no problem.

Al.

The image tags don't seem to be working, is it just me?

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Post by Chris Bolton » Sat May 24, 2008 4:04 pm

al27 wrote:The image tags don't seem to be working, is it just me?
You need to put http:// in the path, not just www

Image
Image

Chris

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Post by al27 » Sat May 24, 2008 4:30 pm

Doh!!

Ta.

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Post by Owen » Sat May 24, 2008 4:45 pm

Al thanks that's great.

Putting one behind the seat shouldn't be to hard but I'm not so sure about down the front end.

Amazingly the seat not only comes out but is ajustable.

Image
Image

To get the front bulkhead in I'd have to squeeze into this cockpit and down past the footrests. The block is polystyrene and it's falling to bits so its got to go.

Image
Image

The seams seems to have stuck anyway.

Image
Image

I made it a but wide to cover up some cracks.

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Post by Mike Marshall » Mon May 26, 2008 8:12 pm

Is the latest Anas Acuta from Valley still the same boat or has it been modified regarding hull etc?

I so miss mine, I would love one as a second boat.

Sold it to a mate called Steve Nutley from Shrewsbury. If anyone knows where he is let me know ;-)


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Post by Owen » Mon May 26, 2008 8:54 pm

Mike Marshall wrote:Is the latest Anas Acuta from Valley still the same boat or has it been modified regarding hull etc?

MikeM
I think it's the same hull, its got the new deck layout with an oval rear hatch, day hatch and round front hatch; still the ocean cockpit. I also think that they're only made to order now.

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Jim
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Post by Jim » Tue May 27, 2008 10:17 pm

The bucket/bowl or one of Al's blanks are the way forward if you really need a hatch in the front, are you sure there is room for a 25cm one forward of the footrest?

I reckon I would just use tailored dry bags when taking kit, or air bags for day paddling. I don't see the lack of bulkheads per-se making it dangerous, but do agree that it should have the buoyancy made up in some way equivalent to having a bulkhead. You might want to glue some karrimat over the sanded down remains of the glass that holds the polystyrene in place just to be certain the air/dry bags are going to stay inflated!

I put a rear hatch in a friends Anas Acuta years ago, I think we just used polyester, can't recall what we made filler with but the glass strips arr round were the main part of it. I don't see why this should be a problem, the deck shouldn't flex as much as the hull does in way of the bulkheads, but mainly I didn't know about sikaflex then and hadn't begun my apprenticeship in epoxy. Nowadays I would be torn between epoxy with microballoons (probably with silica as well, marketed as LD filler, the silica thickens it more cheaply, the microballoons have the mechanical strength), or sikaflex. Epoxy with microfibres is a good bonding paste, but best mix with microballons or silica to make it a bit more manageable - I probably wouldn't use it for such a close fitting item where making the job clean and smooth was high priority though. it is much harder to smooth out and can end up like xmas cake icing (at least the way my mum does it).

Going back to my mate's boat, I seem to recall it was very difficult to work inside (admittedly it was done in the greenhouse in the summer so heat was an issue, bit fitting my shoulders in was difficult) - I can see where your idea for a hinged/removable front bulkhead comes from, but based on the misery just trying to undo rusted/sanded footrest bars I can't even imagine trying to manufacture/fit the bulkhead and/or flange up there, even less having the patience to wriggle in and undo/secure the wingnuts or whatever you use each time you want to load/unload it.

My first ever sea trip was in my mates other Anas Acuta (orange with no bulkheads), I filled the ends with dry bags and topped off with airbags. We went out in the Bristol Channel to Steep Holm and Flat Holm, an excellent adventure. I would probably take the same approach now, maybe not, I have learned a bit in between! Mainly I would probably have too much kit to fit any airbags in now :-)

Jim

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Post by al27 » Wed May 28, 2008 9:28 am

I don't think there are any rights or wrongs here; polyester will stick it, although you wont get a chemical bond. Epoxy would be better, as would sika. Better still would be methacrylate (bit like araldite to use), as you will get a chemical bond to both bits. Its also easier as you just stick it in; no having to get your head inside to back up with glass strips. I agree that a removable bulkhead fore is not that practical; I'd only actually meant it for the back, sorry if that wasn't clear. My whole ethos with removable bulkheads though is that its something that is rarely used. My anas I use as a day boat, and never carry anything in it. I wouldn't use one on an expedition boat, as the thought of having to unscrew 9 bolts 4 times a day, possibly with numb hands just doesn't bear thinking about!!

Al.

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Post by Owen » Wed May 28, 2008 11:03 am

Al,

Just to pick your brains if I may. Is sikaflex strong enough for sticking the hatch rim in on it's own or will it need glassing over as well? And the same for bulkheads? I'm going to do the back end first, gives me time to think about the front later.

Jim,

Even with all the air bags I can get in there's still a lot of space that would fill up with water should I swim. I haven't had an unexpected swim in a very long time but no one can say it will never happen. As it is I wouldn't like to try and do a rescue on it. At the moment, with that block still there, I can only get a small air bag down either side. Once it's out I've a very big bag that should fill most of the front space. In the back is another block I've two long air bags to go at the sides of this. And I've just found some plastic tubing to extend the inflation tube on another bag that will go behind them. Once these are in I'll feel happier but ultimately only solid bulkheads will do.

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Post by Jim » Wed May 28, 2008 4:13 pm

I was meaning to fit the stern bulkhead and hatch anyway but consider using airbags up front if retro-fitting a hatch is going to be too difficult forward, after all the forward tank is always much smaller than the aft one.

Have you considered a sea sock in conjunction with airbags up forward? I guess it will be vulnerable against a bar footrest and the flanges that support it so you would be needing a footrest bulkhead then anyway?

Jim

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Post by al27 » Thu May 29, 2008 11:36 am

Bulkheads, if they are a reasonable fit will go in fine with just sikaflex both sides; infact, if you leave a 1 or so mm gap you will help alaeviate (pretty sure thats not how its spelt) the problem of creating a hard spot.
Been having a closer look at the KS hatches this morning, and if I understand correctly you are considering putting the flange of the hatch up to the inside of the deck? There is not enough room I don't think for the cover, as it goes right down to the flange, and won't seat properly. Sticking it on the top, there's not actually that much of the flange in contact with the boat, so I would go with methacryl, and no glass strips. It will sit quite proud.(Thats for the back). For the front, methacryl bond it to the recess. If you wanted me to do the recess (front and or back)for you, I could methacryl the rim to it at the same time so all you have to do is put the assembly in on a bit of epoxy filler.

Al.

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Post by Jim » Thu May 29, 2008 1:38 pm

Usually the flange is broader than the width of the lip on the cover, so you need a hole that is bigger than the cover but smaller than the outside of the flange, and then you can fit it from inside. I'm sure this is true of the VCP hatches and covers as well? I am really pretty sure it's what we had to do to fit the oval hatch to my mates Anas Acuta, I seem to recall after lots of pondering we realised that by drawing round the cover rather then the rim, you can make the right sized hole....

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that boat had a bulkhead behind the seat with no hatch to get into the space orignally (originally when he got it, it had already had the pin tail cut off for a rudder mount which wasn't even present before he got it) - I think you need some way to inspect/drain even if you aren't going to use for storage. Perhaps there was a hatch in the bulkhead?
Maybe a screw in bung on the deck would work for Owen if he won't be loading the forepeak tank?

I'm sure you have worked out what you are going to do by now, but when I have an idea, I just have to throw it into the pot!

Jim

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Post by Owen » Thu May 29, 2008 2:47 pm

Al,

Thanks for the advice, that's really good of you. As for the front recess I've found someone locally who will do one for me, but again thanks for the offer.

I'll be loosing the boat for a couple of weeks as its going back to the seller, part of the deal, but when it comes back I've a much better idea of what's needed.

Jim,

I think I understand what your saying, I'll bear that in mind when I get around to it.

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Post by Owen » Thu May 29, 2008 7:33 pm

Anyone know a supplier of Methacrylate glue in small quantises in the uk?

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Post by nickcrowhurst » Thu May 29, 2008 11:24 pm

http://www.thegluepeople.co.uk/index.ph ... ucts_id=25

Tradeweld, £8.50 for 50 ml. For a one-off you could probably find a way to avoid having to buy the applicator for £15.40. I've resorted to pushing a stick down the back of similar tubes.
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Post by StuartM » Fri May 30, 2008 11:03 am

Hi



I just sold my Anas, and I bought it in the same layout as your friend's; no bulkheads or hatches. I hope I can offer some helpful comments.



I fitted my own bulkheads, hatches and recessed decklines. It's not too onerous if you have the time and are comfortable working with fibreglass. My finished result was more rough and ready than straight-from-VCP, but it was watertight and looked fine if functional. The drawbacks are:

Cost: I spent c.£200 in parts and fibreglass, epoxy etc, so it's only economical if you're getting the boat for a song. I paid £150 for my boat, so I figured it was worth it.

Weight: Like mine, your friend's anas may be one of a batch that was made for centres, and as such has a heavy layup and keelstrip. My finished anas was about the same weight as a plastic Capella. I could have made it lighter, but you will still be ending up with a boat heavier than an off-the-peg Anas.



As for paddling it: a fabulous boat. Mine had no skeg, but with careful packing (heavy stuff to the back, and when paddling empty I'd stuff a 2litre platypus bottle up the stern) it woud track ok. The only time I had to work significantly harder than everyone else was in a c. Force5 1/4ing and following sea, where I got weathercocked a lot. (I use a Greenland paddle so correcting was maybe easier than with a normal one?).



I sold it as I'm 6'2" and the Anas was too cramped for long trips. I did a trip in a Baidarka and its comfort convinced me to sell the Anas and get a bigger boat. However I wouldn't like to leave the entire Anas experience behind so I'm thinking Pintail or Nordkapp LV. I just need more room.



Good luck with it, they are wonderful fun boats, and the most beautiful of all kayaks IMHO. If you need any more advice on fitting it out give me a shout

anasacuta63@yahoo.co.uk



Stuart Mitchell

Edinburgh

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