Forget surfer prejudice...

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
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Veedurb
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Post by Veedurb » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:16 am

steve ed wrote:but just wanted to say great pics
Thank you! That reminds me if anyone wants a copy, delegate one person, PM me an email address and I'll send them on.
We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing.
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JonC
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Post by JonC » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:44 am

Hope this doesn't get lost on page 3!!

Boats for rescuing in the surf:

1) There is a specific (fibreglass) surf rescue boat. (I think Mega recreated the mould a few years back). This is excellent for surf rescuses and can out perform the lifeguard's paddle board method in most conditions.

2) Hurricane / Avenger by Prijon. The flat back deck allows the swimmer to 'hop-on' to a certain extent and it handles well when paddling out. There must be plenty knocking about in boat stores and back gardens all over the country.

chud
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Post by chud » Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:26 am

How about eg. a burn/diesel or anything else with planing hull, rails and the extra 2 grab handles for carrying swimmers?

av.surfer
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Surf

Post by av.surfer » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:36 pm

Why dont you go out in smaller conditions with less experianced paddlers there'll be no need for the rescue boats.
Matt

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:45 pm

chud wrote:How about eg. a burn/diesel or anything else with planing hull, rails and the extra 2 grab handles for carrying swimmers?
Anything too cork like will get into hard to control bongo slides very easily. Something like a Hurricane, Pirouette Super Sport or international class surf boat would be ideal.

Denzil

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spade
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Goatboaters

Post by spade » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:38 pm

I was surfing with Arthur aka Younggun on sat and i agree with him. It was a joke, the surf was huge and not one of the people paddling could handle it, not only that there were a few out back taking off on waves next to surfers and riding straight in. Polzeath was one of the biggest on that day so why surf there? Why not go to a big expansive beach where surf not as big and there not such a clickie local crowd.

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richard2
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Re: Goatboaters

Post by richard2 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:18 pm

spade wrote:Why not go to a big expansive beach where surf not as big and there not such a clickie local crowd.
...Like perranporth?!

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spade
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Post by spade » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:22 pm

no like one on south coast where it was about 1 - 2 foot which is perfect for beginners

BoaterJH
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Post by BoaterJH » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:39 pm

There were big groups at Polzeath due to the gathering organised by Leeds for the River Legacy. The South coast is a long way to go from Polzeath.

I didn’t see any accidents or carnage at Polzeath, that’s not to say there were not any collisions!

The problem I did see was the image of kayakers that was portrayed. I am not sure if there is goof way of getting around the bad image surf kayakers get from large groups turning up at beaches.

I think the only answer would be for clubs to only go out in groups of 4, but this is completely unrealistic and unfeasible for most clubs.
Joe H

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spade
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goatboaters

Post by spade » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:42 am

I think the problem is they turn up wearing full dry gear with helmets, ba's etc. I dont get it to be honest because dry gear simply does not work in the surf. also did not help that they went slap bang in the middle of the beach and they had no proper surf coaches too teach surf conduct etc.

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Will.S.
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Post by Will.S. » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:52 am

I think the major difficulty for a uni club is trying to arrange a surf trip for 60 people in June when the trip is in October. Most of the time you can't predict accurate surf +1 week in advance.

I think it is fair to say kayakers are a social bunch so they surf in groups and surfers enjoy a more introverted approach to the sport. Clearly this creats some problems. I dont see the problem with having a group of paddlers in the water provided they stick to the basic rules.

Plus there is nothing wrong with a beginner surfing a wave straigth in when they are learning. This is no different to beginner surfers!!

av.surfer
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Surf

Post by av.surfer » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:52 am

I agree with the kit they use is ott! I posted something like that on the inland section and had a bit of a bashing off the rivery dudes...
Matt
Last edited by av.surfer on Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Wilf
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Post by Wilf » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:41 am

I think we (surf kayakers, as opposed to kayakers who go surfing) are in danger of isolating ourselves if we are not careful. Lets welcome all comers to the surf, we don't want to be tarred with the same angry brush as the Boardies.

A while ago I posted a thread about how to surf politely and received some feedback that suggested not only did a significant minority of river paddlers not know about surf etiquette, but we actually opposed to it. Could this be as a result form arrogance on their side, our side or both sides. Is there a side?

It strikes me that whilst the photographed session would have appeared to many to be somewhat chaotic and inconsiderate, in fact they had taken very sensible steps to ensure the safety of all water users.

The surf can be a factastic tool for coaching kayaking skills and I applaude the club for making use of resources available to them and being considerate to those already on the water.

Let's not criticise this group for essentially doing the right thing. Let's congratulate them for not surfing where the surfers were and for seeking advice of the local rescue services.

I agree that if they could have found a quieter break, that would have been ideal, but perhaps then they would not have the support of captain Jet Ski rescue man?

My hope is that it was clearly explained to the novice paddlers in the group what they were doing and why, I hope there was a surf coach available to explain about surfing should anyone wish to learn how to surf in a way that "Surfers" around the world respect. And if there wasn't I hope that again it was made clear that there are those who are available to help develop surf skills and that they can be quite different to playboating/ river running skills.

I hope all had a good experience in the surf, and when they have got their basic boating skills sorted, return to learn how to surf with style.

W
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Hedgepig
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Re: goatboaters

Post by Hedgepig » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:43 am

spade wrote:I think the problem is they turn up wearing full dry gear ......I dont get it to be honest because dry gear simply does not work in the surf.
Sorry that's total rubbish. I spent a good hour in a boat then another hour helping beginners in the small stuff on Saturday and was still dry underneath at the end of it.

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Cornholio
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Post by Cornholio » Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:58 am

I've used my drysuit and it was perfectly fine- better than slowly starting to go cold over several hours.
I think everyone should button it anyway- what harm was done by this bunch having that rare element sought by some- i.e. some fun?
The problem with many net forums etc is that they encourage a bad morally superior attitude to develop in otherwise rational decent people, and at least they were out actually kayaking ulike some of us who post every hour of every day almost. Armchair pundits!
(I'm never normally on line at this time of day but a chest infection/cold (man-flu!) has warranted a few days off....!)
Reading between the lines here it's as if some of us reckon we shouldn't be on the water at all until we've done our new 3* test, preferably in isolation!
My first surf kayaking (in a river boat) was a couple of weeks ago, on a fairly isolated beach, with 3 boardies none of whom could stand up in the 4-5ft waves let alone surf them. After largely playing in the soup I did paddle out and try a few green waves and, new to the game, you can betcha my projectile line was directly for the beach, usually bongo sliding, like every other newcomers no doubt. I hope with experience and time to be able to surf "for real" so I can join the clique and duly tut-tut at these pesky newcomers ruining my god given rights to the surf.
"God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're f****d..."

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Cornholio
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Post by Cornholio » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:48 am

Oh- and that day we purposely avoided going over to St Andrews East Sands because it was a Saturday and the trip organiser said there's too many boardies there "who haven't got a clue" what they're doing, never mind our "perceived abilities". I was over there the night before visiting my mum, and went down and parked up to watch what was going on about 5-6pm. I saw a few folk on kayaks but they were playing on greener waves near the pier. The "real" boardies, were as some have said on here, hanging about near the breaks(3-4ft), 90% couldn't actually catch a wave due to poor timing or would fall off the second they stood up.
So who's ruining who's fun here? The "goaters" feel pushed out further due to being outnumbered, whilst the mainly highly amateur board surfers sit and miss wave after wave that would be perfect and safer (away from a stone pier) for the kayakers!!
If they're sitting about waiting for one or two waves in a set then that's a lot wasted. It's not like the deli counter in a supermarket where you can take a ticket to see who's next on the next suitable wave (if they go for it and manage to stay up....)!!
Maybe they do despise us for having more fun per session than they can get? I wonder how long some take to master being able to catch a wave and stay standing?
"God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're f****d..."

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chris-uk
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Post by chris-uk » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:27 pm

Simple fact of the matter is this: Rivers are crowded, crowded enough that you DO need a ticket in some places!!! If surfers turned up at Treweryn and just started jumping infront of everyone there would be hell to pay. The etiquette rules are there for a purpose, the safety of everyone involved, and ANY 'surfer' ignoring them at my expense is going to know they f**ked up!!! I've done it before and I'll do it again, followed by a good, friendly explanation of the rules it's normally a once-only affair. However, we (kayak surfers) get a bad rep from river-runners who think the rules don't apply to them, through stupidity, ignorance or whatever.

For what it's worth I think this group got it right, well planned and well executed trip by the sound of it. Hard to see how you could plan a trip like that any differently..?

Chris

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Post by krp » Wed Oct 17, 2007 5:29 pm

I appreciate the common sense and decency - not to mention safety - enshrined in surfing etiquette as discussed here and elsewhere; I've always stuck to those rules myself. I would be shocked if they weren't included in the SUCC safety briefing at the weekend - they have been every year I've heard it (and I saw no evidence of people disregarding the rules, though everyone makes mistakes).

I'm less keen, however, to go beyond this and bend over backwards to please another group of water users when their disproportionate attitude is based on false assumption and prejudice (and yes, I do see some similarity with fishermen on rivers).

(To be clear: if there's a genuine issue or safety concern, of couse we should listen and act.)

I can see that those of you who surf more regularly are more likely to receive (misplaced, and frankly unacceptable) abuse as a result, and for that I'm sorry. Other paddlers do realise this is an issue, and will - as SUCC did at the weekend - go out of their way to make accommodations. But perhaps some of you could appreciate that we have practical and logistical considerations too, so there's likely to be some compromise.

A few examples (there are countless other practicalities in organising a trip - it's hard work!):
younggun wrote:20 at maximum.
As has already been pointed out, you'd still need to hire 1 transit van and 1 hut. The less people you have, the more each of them pays. I'm not sure how you'd stop existing members turning up in cars anyway, but at greater cost to themselves and the environment.
spade wrote:no like one on south coast where it was about 1 - 2 foot which is perfect for beginners
Firstly, that's quite a drive, and the logistics of transport increase massively the further you travel and the more places you visit (e.g. checking out 3 different beaches some distance apart would entail an enormous amount of faff and probably take most of the day; yes, this is also a function of group size). It would probably be fine to drive a moderate distance if you could guarantee the conditions we'd find there - we can't, so we need to stick to beaches nearby.

As has been pointed out already, much of the trip (e.g. accommodation) is organised far in advance of predictable conditions, and perhaps we don't have the local experience to make as perfect a judgement on the day as a local might (but as already requested, advice on beaches near Perranporth is welcomed!).

Secondly, beginners rely on experienced paddlers for teaching and safety. I'm sure there was a better beach for novices, but there would also have been different better breaks for the experienced paddlers. Perranporth was a compromise where both could have their fun (though as we've mentioned already, this wasn't the only factor/compromise).
spade wrote:I think the problem is they turn up wearing full dry gear with helmets, ba's etc. I dont get it to be honest because dry gear simply does not work in the surf. also did not help that they went slap bang in the middle of the beach and they had no proper surf coaches too teach surf conduct etc.
The kit may not be perfectly suited to surf, but it still seems to work pretty well. The club cannot afford specialist kit just for surf weekends - it needs to be used on rivers and on flatwater in Southampton. There are other compromises: it's shared amongst beginners, so the fit will never be perfect; at the beginning of the year every last bit of kit is pulled out of the shed to allow as many freshers as possible to give it a go, though inevitably some won't stick with the sport as the year progresses, etc.

The club rules are also such that members must wear safety kit. I believe this is mandated by the Athletic Union, and I wouldn't be surprised if this, in turn, were a condition of their insurance policy.

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Wilf
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Post by Wilf » Wed Oct 17, 2007 8:58 pm

I just wanted to congratulate KRP on an elequent and well explained reply to some of the criticisms out there. (Not intended to be patronising, please don't read it as such).

I do understand Veedurb's concerns, even share some of them, but on this occasion I feel the group has acted resposibly. This discussion has highlighted some of the issues arising from taking such a large group of inexperienced paddlers to the surf, this is a good thing.

Again, don't take this the wrong way, but would a student "How to run sessions in the surf" weekend, along the lines of the student safety weekend have any benefit?

Although the North East may not be the most glamerous of locations, I am confident we could arrange this in conjunction with our local Surf School...get a bit of mutual understanding going as well. Probably get Mega involved and have our coaches deliver some technical clinics as well.

Comments? Ideas?
Pyranha
Mitchell Blades
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BoaterJH
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Post by BoaterJH » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:05 pm

Wilf wrote: Again, don't take this the wrong way, but would a student "How to run sessions in the surf" weekend, along the lines of the student safety weekend have any benefit?
This may be better attached to one of the student safety weekends, either the October or Easter one, rather than an independent weekend. It sounds like a great idea as long as you get a good few people attending. A good few people that don’t have much of an idea about surfing as well!
Joe H

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JamesA
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Post by JamesA » Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:47 pm

Cheeky aside:

On an empty beach or line-up, bongo-sliding is an art-form. The Beach Kayak Bongo Championships event should be considered... ;)

Anyway, back to regular programming...
James.

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Cornholio
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Post by Cornholio » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:15 am

Bongo sliding is great fun! Plus, (without reading back the whole thread so apologise if it's been mentioned) we're maybe assuming that everyone who takes to the surf does so to be a surf kayaker and/or does it in a WW boat to brush up on transferable skills/reactions etc to take back to WW. What about the people who're only doing so to learn how a boat reacts and handles in surf so thay have an idea what to expect when they need to launch or land through surf in their sea kayak, a very different craft which I believe is easier to launch than land. For every sea kayaker I think the bongo slide will be a better skill to learn than any form of surfing in most of the time! For practicing in the surf it's better to learn in a shorter boat to start with isn't it? Less chance of injury and/or boat damage?
"God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure you're f****d..."

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chris-uk
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Post by chris-uk » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:17 pm

Spade; I have been surfing kayaks exclusively for seven years now, have ridden BIG Ireland (see avatar), France, and home breaks too, and I have NEVER had a problem with my dry gear not being dry (and I could show you wipeout film that would make you wet your pants!!!). I don't understand your problem with dry gear? My boardsurfing mates love me caddying their mars bars for them, what else are pockets for..?

Doesn't matter what you wear/ride, it's how you wear/ride it that counts.

Chris

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Post by jamesl2play » Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:35 pm

Cornholio wrote: For every sea kayaker I think the bongo slide will be a better skill to learn than any form of surfing in most of the time! For practicing in the surf it's better to learn in a shorter boat to start with isn't it? Less chance of injury and/or boat damage?

When I eventually get my sea kayak I am going to try this, an eighteen foot sea kayak coming in side- ways 'he he' then we will see what this so called prejudice is all about (smilie face here)

DaveDP - GSY
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Post by DaveDP - GSY » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:13 pm

lets just say if this was at my local break we'd have a riot going on, tyres would be slashed and blood spilt. I think it was a bit wriske taking all thoes playboaters out into the surf, kinda shows me why boardie get annoyed!

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Post by jamesl2play » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:37 pm

DaveDP - GSY wrote:lets just say if this was at my local break we'd have a riot going on, tyres would be slashed and blood spilt. I think it was a bit wriske taking all thoes playboaters out into the surf, kinda shows me why boardie get annoyed!
Well I think that is an awful comment and certainly not productive.
Everybody has the right to start somewhere, boardies do not own the sea anymore than anglers own the water in rivers.

You have been watching 'Blue Crush' too much, and you missed a capital letter.

jamesl2play
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Post by jamesl2play » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:18 pm

DaveDP - GSY wrote: Blue crush... never heard of it! and to annoy you some more left out capital letters :)
Anyway, surf boats, more sick moves!!
A young man like you and you have never watched Blue Crush, highly recommended, but only for the surfing of course.
Its not actually me who gets annoyed when capitals are not used.
Don't understand the last bit.

Kev Pearson
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Post by Kev Pearson » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:04 pm

Sorry but I really can't see the problem. I surf longboards, Kayaks and surf kayaks (to varying degree's of success). I have never had a problem with boarders when I'm in my boat and never had a problem with boaters when I'm on my board. I have to say it great to see a group of people out enjoying themselves. I have seen worse things on the beach when you get 3 or 4 surf schools out in the mush on a beach and that really is carnage! But everybody has the right to give it a go and they have to learn and develop, so why not do that when the RNLI is watching? Makes sense to me. I wish I could persuade 20 mates to get out on the water rather than sit at home drinking beer and playing on their play stations!

Obsolutly no offence meant!

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Strad
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Post by Strad » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:36 pm

The number of concurrent swimmers may give a poor impression, but sounds like the group had planned for how to handle it, spoken to the life guards and then executed on what they wanted to do.

As for the boardie issue, I've found most not to be problematic, if you follow etiquette and ensure that they follow it too, I've had a few boardies try and snake waves on me. A polite pointer that they're not following their own rules usually sorts things, as soon as they know you know what you're doing they're usually happy to chat. As always you come across people who think they own a particular piece of water but there you go.

Of course the ultimate lever is to show them your camera and say that you may be in awkward places to try and get good action shots, suggest they leave you an email addy after the session and they will be your friend for ever
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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