Surf Boats - Is it worth getting one??^

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younggun
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Post by younggun » Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:08 am

I think that surf boats are easier than river boats to roll. Maybe it is because they are a lot narrower around the cockpit area? Padding out is quite difficult in the new boats especially as the seat tends to curve but you can layer tthe foam so that it gets thicker towars the top in order to hold your legs in better. Think very carefully about a lapbelt as it will take you an extra 15+ seconds to undo it when you are over!

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:03 pm

Ok then, lots of things to comment on since I last looked at this thread.

Firstly padding. with decent padding you should not need a lap belt to hold you in your boat, I do wear a lapbelt (unless the conditions are scary) but I actually find this slightly hinders my rolling rather than helping and a lap boat should really only be used in conjunction with a good padding job rather than instead of a good padding job.
For padding I simply but a load of this stuff, cut two chunks so that they fit the boat (shaped to fit against the side of the seat up to the inside of the cockpit rim) but are a bit too big for you to fit in the boat with in, then taking small amounts off at a time I carve the foam down (using a coaxing saw, a bread knife and course sandpaper) until it is moulded to my leg/hip shape and holds me snug in my boat, I then whip out the evo-stick impact adhesive and stick the suckers in. The increase in control over your boat a decent padding job gives is immense and should stop you from slipping about in your seat.

Secondly The reverse screw roll. That roll you have a video clip of is a back deck roll rather than a screw roll and while these do have their place in surfing (try and to a barrel roll without one) I do not use them as my main roll I use the reverse screw which is different but nobody seems to know how to do these any more and I can not find a video of one. a normal screw roll will wrok though as long as you bastardise it and finish it with a forward skull bringing your weight over the front of the boat.

Thirdly
feelingjustfine wrote:Get a Squashtail, then you will be out performing lots of specialist surf kayaks and be able to have the fastest playboat on any river wave that you can find and play in holes too. They are speed deamons to the utmost degree and will rock your world in the surf and fill your every need at any other inland play location/ river run you want to do.
only do this if you are planning on doing lots of river surfing, while it will out perform any plastic playboat in the surf any modern HP Surf boat will out perform the squashtail in the surf, don't believe me ask Corran!

Denzil

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harrysk
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Post by harrysk » Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:43 pm

Hi all,

Some info here, including links to rolling videos:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/NI_Surf_Kaya ... &p=3687585

I posted this in answer to a question about rolling a slingshot but most of it still applies.

And here's some info on sticking in foam pads while I'm at it:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/NI_Surf_Kaya ... wtopic=416

I agree with Denzil that pretty much any surf specific kayak will have more performance in the ocean than the DR Squashtail - not knocking the squashtail but it has been designed to be paddled on a river too and that has to compromise it's surfing potential.

Unlike Denzil however, I find a lapbelt excellent help when rolling and that they do replace the need for agressive hip pads. Of course, you need to be confident to use one and well practised in releasing it before going out in the surf.

More info here:

http://boatertalk.com/forum/SurfZone/1034534

hope that helps,
Harry

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feelingjustfine
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Post by feelingjustfine » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:16 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:
Thirdly feelingjustfine wrote:
Get a Squashtail, then you will be out performing lots of specialist surf kayaks and be able to have the fastest playboat on any river wave that you can find and play in holes too. They are speed deamons to the utmost degree and will rock your world in the surf and fill your every need at any other inland play location/ river run you want to do.
only do this if you are planning on doing lots of river surfing, while it will out perform any plastic playboat in the surf any modern HP Surf boat will out perform the squashtail in the surf, don't believe me ask Corran!

Denzil
This is true but HP boats are a hell of alot more expensive than the price you can pick up a ST for!
dam the dart :)

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:27 pm

feelingjustfine wrote:StoneWeasel wrote:
Thirdly feelingjustfine wrote:
Get a Squashtail, then you will be out performing lots of specialist surf kayaks and be able to have the fastest playboat on any river wave that you can find and play in holes too. They are speed deamons to the utmost degree and will rock your world in the surf and fill your every need at any other inland play location/ river run you want to do.
only do this if you are planning on doing lots of river surfing, while it will out perform any plastic playboat in the surf any modern HP Surf boat will out perform the squashtail in the surf, don't believe me ask Corran!

Denzil
This is true but HP boats are a hell of alot more expensive than the price you can pick up a ST for!
Hold on a second! you can get a HDP Neutron for less and it is a better surf boat or you could get any Mega HP Composite boat in basic lay up for just a fraction more than a squash tail. There are also a lot more second hand HP boats around than there are squashtails so the chances are you could get a much better performing HP boat than less than you could get a squash for.

Denzil

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feelingjustfine
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Post by feelingjustfine » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:45 pm

But can you blunt, helix, pan am, cartwheel a proper surf boat as well as doing all the normal surf things? The Nemisis by luid looks much similar and the videos of it show it to be a VERY high performance boat. I think than now it may be owrth spending money on one of the obove instead of a conventional surf boat-they simply give you more options...
Chris.
dam the dart :)

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:58 pm

feelingjustfine wrote:But can you blunt, helix, pan am, cartwheel a proper surf boat as well as doing all the normal surf things?
Yes, just watch James Hawker surf. You want to compromise a certain amount of traditional surfability for these tricks to be easier? Try a Short RR's or wait for James' new design to be released (A new Mega boat that is a more playboaty surfboat designed by James Hawker).

I can not really see your argument and the fact that it keeps changing is confusing me.

Do you just not like surf boats? any reason why not?

Denzil

P.S. People have been helixing surf boats for ages (including 3m international class boats), big off the lip Blunts are if anything easier in a surf boat if the surf is good and the added speed of the surfboat means you can regain the shoulder and do some more, a butt bounced pan am will not work so well but James can pull a crazy huge carven pan am style thing that looks much more impressive and finally lots of surf boats cartwheel reasonably well, the Reflex, Fury, Short RR's and x-ray are particularly easy.

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feelingjustfine
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Post by feelingjustfine » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:21 pm

I can not really see your argument and the fact that it keeps changing is confusing me.
Its not an argument, just an opionion;-)
Do you just not like surf boats? any reason why not?
I do like surf boats, I think they are very cool and are great performance kayaks. However, personally I think that the boats from the whitewater kayak manufacturers (i.e. Fluid+DragoRossi+Riot) can ocasionally offer something to surfing from an outside perspective which can enhance the sport to me, not saying it will to you or everyone but it was someone asking for opionions was it not? I think that at the same time as surf boats being very cool they also lack a bit va va voom, same as alot of whitewater boats that are coming out, not that I'm knowing loads about the surf kayaks as its not really my thing but that doesn't stop me from thinking what I think about the kayaks does it? Fair enough one or two of your top surf guys can do freestyle moves in a surf kayak and if you put enough pictures of that about then people will think that anyone can do it but the reality is that surf kayaks are harder to paddle let alone start experimenting and doing "moves" in when people are generally more cautious about even capsizing in them let alone trying to get a decent bounce and get an end down,yeah you can do it in a surf boat if you paddle in the surf loads but not many people do, I'd much rather have a boat that could rip the hell out of a river wave and be wicked good fun in the surf when I get there as a pose to a boat that when I paddle it once or twice every fortnight takes a while to get used to and makes my paddling less confident because it is such an unforgiving harsh boat to paddle and to add to that is only a little way ahead of some of the leading playboat desgins unless you're wanting to spend mega bucks on a Carbon super surf boat. Basically I'm saying that if you pick the right boat from the WW market you can have more fun without the worry of being in an incredibly unforgiving boat that is pure performance. Thats my thoughts on it anyway. Sorry to offend Denzil!
dam the dart :)

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woody
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Post by woody » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:36 pm

feelingjustfine wrote:they also lack a bit va va voom
Have you had (another) blow to the head?

Woody
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feelingjustfine
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Post by feelingjustfine » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:43 pm

They do, but thats not just surf boats in generall, certain ones are wicked, I like the Impulse by mega alot but ones like the Maverick to me are pretty boring- then I feel the same about lots of boats, whitewater mostly, don't even get me started on phyrana boats! No more blows to the head thank god, had enough of them within the first 2 hours of being born let alone the countless ones on rivers since then, possibly be getting some knocks creeking on Skye later on in the week, you know any good creeks up there?
dam the dart :)

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:50 am

feelingjustfine wrote:
I do like surf boats, I think they are very cool and are great performance kayaks. However, personally I think that the boats from the whitewater kayak manufacturers (I.e. Fluid+DragoRossi+Riot) can ocasionally offer something to surfing from an outside perspective which can enhance the sport to me
Fair play, you prefer playboating in the surf with a little bit of pseudo surfing, the Americans seem to have taken to calling this K1 style surfing (which is a stupid name) and it is proving very popular with those moving into surf and although the general trend is to move to HP class after a while you do get exceptions like Joey Hall (Ex-Necky paddler currently paddling for Riot I think) who compete in both and enjoy both equally.
feelingjustfine wrote:I think that at the same time as surf boats being very cool they also lack a bit va va voom
I know this is a personal opinion thing but are you NUTS I think my surf boat is made up of layers of va va voom sandwiched into the composite! most surf boats are far sexier than most river boats (in my opinion)

feelingjustfine wrote:Fair enough one or two of your top surf guys can do freestyle moves in a surf kayak
Don't class me in with the top guys, I am just a keen muppet.

feelingjustfine wrote:if you put enough pictures of that about then people will think that anyone can do it but the reality is that surf kayaks are harder to paddle
I disagree they are just different and take a bit of getting used to but are not really any harder.
feelingjustfine wrote:let alone start experimenting and doing "moves" in when people are generally more cautious about even capsizing in them let alone trying to get a decent bounce and get an end down
you mean when starting to surf people are cautious and do not just start to throw down the big stuff, you surprise me. How does this differ say from freestyle? I certainly did not chuck myself into a big feature and start trying to loop, first I was happy just to front surf.

feelingjustfine wrote:yeah you can do it in a surf boat if you paddle in the surf loads but not many people do, I'd much rather have a boat that could rip the hell out of a river wave and be wicked good fun in the surf when I get there
Well then it sounds like you have what you want.

feelingjustfine wrote:takes a while to get used to and makes my paddling less confident because it is such an unforgiving harsh boat to paddle
They take a bit of getting used to but once you do you take less harsh beating in the surf in a surfboat than you do in a playboat and they are not monstrously unforgiving and harsh or I would not be able to paddle one.

feelingjustfine wrote:add to that is only a little way ahead of some of the leading playboat desgins
NO NO NO NO! They are not just a little bit better than some playboats, they are much much better than any playboat out there (including the squashtail which is not so much of a playboat as a river surf boat).

feelingjustfine wrote:unless you're wanting to spend mega bucks on a Carbon super surf boat.
A brand new basic construction surf boat costs about the same as a playboat new, where does this idea that you need mega bucks to buy a surf boat come from.

feelingjustfine wrote:Basically I'm saying that if you pick the right boat from the WW market you can have more fun without the worry of being in an incredibly unforgiving boat that is pure performance. Thats my thoughts on it anyway. Sorry to offend Denzil!
That is fair, you are free to your opinions, I disagree with several as you can see (oh and as pointed out the points made in previous posts do not stand up) but as long as we are all out on the water enjoying our selves what does it matter? I would recommend though trying the new James Hawker design Mega boat when it comes out, I think it may appeal.

Denzil

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:54 am

feelingjustfine wrote:They do, but thats not just surf boats in generall, certain ones are wicked, I like the Impulse by mega alot but ones like the Maverick to me are pretty boring
I don't mean to offend but how heavy are you? If the Impulse was working well for you but you found the Maverick boreing it may well be that you are in the ideal weight range for the Impulse which would make you a little large for the Maverick, the Maverick does seem to become sluggish and not turn as well if you are a bit heavy for it.

Denzil

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Bhoyo
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Post by Bhoyo » Tue Apr 24, 2007 8:04 pm

Looks like I will be trying to demo a few boats, once the 'man' has let me finish uni

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Wilf
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Post by Wilf » Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:42 pm

It's possible that we may have some boats to demo on the 4 star surf course on the 19/20th May.

Use the link to the coach2o website for details.

Wilf

ps Fancy a paddle Denz?
Pyranha
Mitchell Blades
kayak coach . co . uk

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StoneWeasel
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Post by StoneWeasel » Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:12 pm

If I ever leave the sunny breaks of Cornwall and Devon and head up your way I would love to catch up for a surf, likewise if you ever find your way down to Pasty Land give us a shout and I'll join you for a surf.

Denzil

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