Learning to roll

[ForeverYoung]

Our wee local sea kayak group has been trying to book the swimming pool for some sessions to work on rolling etc, but not managing to do so. I managed to book in a session elsewhere when I was away working, so got a bit of instruction and made some progress towards it. I was out with another local lady in the sea today to practice what we worked on and now I would like to move to the next steps before it gets too cold for playing around under boats in the sea!

So, we got as far as her standing next to my boat with her hands where my paddle would be. I was going down but with my hands lightly on hers and then coming back up from there. I wasn't using much pressure on her hands, and I think I might be ready to move to the next steps.

Are there any good video tutorials that you could recommend to help us to progress? The coaches who are linked to our group are pretty busy so don't have time to come out and help us soon, and it won't be long until the water reaches temperatures which i dont want to play in for long!

[on the rocks]

Online sea kayaking
https://www.onlineseakayaking.com/
Worth every penny of the subscription, but you can have a free one month trial

[richb250]

I quite like Kent Ford's 'The Kayak Roll' - which is old enough that I have it somewhere on DVD.

It now appears to be available to download for free (!!) from: https://performancevideo.com/the-kayak-roll/

[PlymouthDamo]

The two "This is the roll" DVDs by Cheri Perry and Turner Wilson set the bar very high as far as tutorials go. However, it's all Greenland rolls so I wouldn't recommend them if, as is likely, the roll you're learning is the 'screw' or 'sweep' roll as it will just confuse matters for you. I haven't seen an equally comprehensive and well-delivered tutorial for the other types of roll - only short-but-helpful vids on YouTube. I think YouTube can be a really useful learning tool, but you've got to persevere through lots of vids to find the one that covers the specific technical point you need help with.

[Ceegee]

Helen Wilson has some great tutorials also. She taught my daughter to roll with a brick!

[fergus_finn]

This is my goto site https://qajaqrolls.com/

[Sean_soup]

Are there any good video tutorials that you could recommend to help us to progress?

I don't have a recommendation to make, but will suggest this.. if you have an idea of what you should be doing, the video that will most help you is one you make yourself so that you know what you are doing.

Tutorials can replace a coach as far as giving you advice, but the other key thing a coach will give you is feedback. It's very difficult while your brain is fully engaged in trying to get your body to do three different things at once to actually be aware of what your body is doing in the moment.

So if at all possible, I'd suggest that you work with a partner and get them to video what you're doing - using a gopro, compact camera, phone, whatever. Watch the video back as soon as possible and look at what you're doing with your paddle, your body and especially your head. (Because we *all*, pretty much, try to bring the head up too early without being aware of it.)

It's frustrating to try the same thing again and again if it's not working, and without some useful feedback between attempts (or batches of attempts) there's a risk of ingraining an ineffective technique (because practice makes permanent!)

When I was learning to roll I found it very useful to use a paddle float to work on body position and technique without having to worry about what i was doing with the paddle blade at the same time.

[leighv]

When I was learning to roll I found it very useful to use a paddle float to work on body position and technique without having to worry about what i was doing with the paddle blade at the same time.

I also developed my roll with a paddle float, I think they're excellent tools for learning the muscle memory for the hip flick and keeping your head in the correct position :) The Online Sea Kayaking guys did make a valid point that there's a downside to them, however, and that's that a paddle float will generally get you back up regardless of whether you've used the right technique or not. But I still think they're a great tool, provided you bear that in mind. I also just think they're a handy bit of safety kit to keep on your boat. If your roll doesn't work, they're an additional option for a self rescue in chop :)

[ForeverYoung]

When I was learning to roll I found it very useful to use a paddle float to work on body position and technique without having to worry about what i was doing with the paddle blade at the same time.

I also developed my roll with a paddle float, I think they're excellent tools for learning the muscle memory for the hip flick and keeping your head in the correct position :) The Online Sea Kayaking guys did make a valid point that there's a downside to them, however, and that's that a paddle float will generally get you back up regardless of whether you've used the right technique or not. But I still think they're a great tool, provided you bear that in mind. I also just think they're a handy bit of safety kit to keep on your boat. If your roll doesn't work, they're an additional option for a self rescue in chop :)

The lady I was out with the other day has one, so I might try to get a go with that sometime. I also wondered about trying to do the exercise which we were doing where I used her hands where the paddle would be, but only having one hand on hers, and bring the other under (over?) my boat to simulate getting my paddle into the right position. I presume with a good hip flick, I should be able to get back up just using her one hand like this?

I have been watching various ones of the videos which people have suggested above, and I think getting my paddle to the right position is where I will get myself in a muddle. I'm struggling to watch someone doing it and then imagine myself getting it there upside down. I am struggling to transfer the visual to trying to feel the movement which I need to do. My hip flick feels pretty strong though, I have a strong core and legs so I think that will help.

If the sea isn't too rough tomorrow, I think a few of us might get back out then too for another go

[leighv]

The lady I was out with the other day has one, so I might try to get a go with that sometime. I also wondered about trying to do the exercise which we were doing where I used her hands where the paddle would be, but only having one hand on hers, and bring the other under (over?) my boat to simulate getting my paddle into the right position. I presume with a good hip flick, I should be able to get back up just using her one hand like this?

I have been watching various ones of the videos which people have suggested above, and I think getting my paddle to the right position is where I will get myself in a muddle. I'm struggling to watch someone doing it and then imagine myself getting it there upside down. I am struggling to transfer the visual to trying to feel the movement which I need to do. My hip flick feels pretty strong though, I have a strong core and legs so I think that will help.

If the sea isn't too rough tomorrow, I think a few of us might get back out then too for another go

Try not to overthink it :) With regards to your paddle, it really just needs to be out of the water slightly, and oriented correctly (depending on what paddle you use, you may have an index on the paddle shaft which tells you that the blade is oriented correctly, otherwise you might want to extend your hand to check this). The actual overall position that the paddle and your arms are in when you start to roll depends on what kind of roll you're trying to do, eg a C-to-C, a screw roll, etc. Remember though that the paddle is really just there to support you - the actual roll is done with your hips and core.

For what it's worth, I don't have a reliable roll myself, so even though I can roll, it's something I am still working on because I can't rely on it yet. I confused myself terribly watching loads of videos online and whatnot; even with really good video tutorials, there's still an overwhelming amount of information to take in especially when different people tend to explain it in slightly different ways; really, the best way to learn it is to get in the water with a paddle buddy and just do it. And it sounds like you do have a paddle buddy, so good luck :)

[mrcharly]

I tried and failed (due to PTSD, long story) to self-teach in a swimming pool.

Got quite close to being able to roll up sans paddle at all - best trick I tried was to wear swimming goggles. Really helps when learning.

[leighv]

best trick I tried was to wear swimming goggles. Really helps when learning.

Yes, this! And a nose plug too :)

[PlymouthDamo]

Swimming goggles and nose clips are a very good idea, but another option which kills two birds is a divers mask, as that covers your nose too. (I find nose clips keep sliding off, especially when I'm wearing sunblock in summer.) You'll occasionally hear people claiming that learning in goggles/masks means you won't be able to roll when you actually capsize for real and aren't wearing one. This just isn't true - the challenge is getting the movement into muscle memory, so anything that allows you to do more repetitions is good. Once it's properly in muscle memory, you could do it whilst wearing a top hat, monocle and smoking a pipe - doesn't make any difference.

[ForeverYoung]

I did wear goggles the last time and it did really help. I don't ever struggle with water up my nose, never did even as a young child learning tumble turns in a pool etc. I might not try the pipe smoking though 😂

[on the rocks]

Rolling can be frustrating. I had a really solid rough water roll, then one day lost it. Because like a lot of people my roll had been automatic I had forgotten how I rolled, or even how I had learned to roll. I think some coaches’ automatic roll reflex makes it difficult for them to diagnose the particular reasons for a student’s failed roll and resort back to the building block approach of sweep and hip flick, all too often with the usually unhelpful refrain of “your head’s up too soon” without understanding the underlying causes.
It took me a while but now I have a much better roll than before, and more importantly I believe a good understanding of why and how MY roll is better (this may be different for different people). Before losing my roll I had mis understood what a “good” roll was – it basically comprised a powerful sweep which gave me a fair bit more lift than is really necessary, followed by trying to punch a hole through the hull with my knee but happily ending the right way up sat bolt upright. It felt good and snappy because I had directed a lot of force and energy into it, but I hadn’t realised that it was very vulnerable – for example messy water robbed my forceful sweep of the additional lift I had relied on and my upright posture made me rather unstable until fully righted, and I was less able to roll if tired.
Re-learning to roll was at first very frustrating because I tried to address the wrong aspects, for example exaggerating a reaching out sweep to the extent that I was sliding out of the cockpit, forcing my head and neck into my downside shoulder in a fruitless effort to stop it coming up too soon. I’m sure a number of aspirant rollers suffer similar frustrations.
What helped me get my roll back was understanding through volunteering to help a coach teaching children to roll in a pool, particularly teaching them to hand roll. These are my tips which may (or may not) help.
During the whole process make sure you don’t lose the contact point with your boat, keep foot pegs, knees and bum engaged the whole time. Slow everything down – it takes a lot less energy and you can understand what you are doing. In the set up allow time for your torso to float up towards the surface as far as possible (make sure your PFD straps are tight so your PFD doesn’t get there before you do). After making sure the blade angle is correct and on the surface with just a bit of lift, not too much, ensure good form keeping the non-active blade arm tucked in as if holding a newspaper under it. As you sweep slowly to 90 degrees don’t try and push the blade too far so you lose that locked in feeling or drop your newspaper. Follow the blade with your eyes but as far as possible ROTATE YOUR SHOULDERS NOT YOUR NECK. All being well you will have now completed the first 90 degrees of your roll with part of your torso breaking the surface, most failed rolls fail after this bit. If your posture is upright and facing forward your head will be like a heavy water melon on the end of a pointed stick when you are holding the other end with one hand; very difficult to lift without reversing your hard won 90 degrees (On the other hand if your sweep has been really efficient and powerful it may have given you enough lift to pop up anyway). You need to do two things to greatly reduce the effort to lift that melon on a stick and complete your roll effortlessly. First lean back a bit to reduce the distance between your head and the deck, second and importantly make sure your shoulders are rotated (as far as possible) to face the sea bed. Because your spine and neck can only bend forward not back your head can do nothing but stay low in the water while you complete your gentle knee lift. You should then have completed a roll with relatively little effort.

As someone else has mentioned, having an index bump on your paddle shaft can be a great help, you can DIY with some plastic and heat shrink fishing rod handle. They are particularly useful for re-entry roll self rescue

[Jim Potter]

Just to add to this extensive thread-

- would agree Online Sea Kayaking is best paid for content I have seen (I subscribe)
-Glenmore Lodge have a few rolling videos on their YouTube Channel- free to view. Their ‘drown yourself to save yourself’ teaching point (might not be exact) shows great progression, shoulder safe rolling techniques.
-Chris Spelius/Expediciones Chile (USA Slalom/Big Water paddler) also has some very well made, although old, YouTube videos- worth seeking out & again free.

If you can afford to invest Plas Y Brenin/Glenmore Lodge rolling courses would be a great investment-
Or find a club with a winter pool programme- little and often is the key!

Good Luck,

Jim
Snowdonia Canoe Club

[ForeverYoung]

Just to add to this extensive thread-

- would agree Online Sea Kayaking is best paid for content I have seen (I subscribe)
-Glenmore Lodge have a few rolling videos on their YouTube Channel- free to view. Their ‘drown yourself to save yourself’ teaching point (might not be exact) shows great progression, shoulder safe rolling techniques.
-Chris Spelius/Expediciones Chile (USA Slalom/Big Water paddler) also has some very well made, although old, YouTube videos- worth seeking out & again free.

If you can afford to invest Plas Y Brenin/Glenmore Lodge rolling courses would be a great investment-
Or find a club with a winter pool programme- little and often is the key!

Good Luck,

Jim
Snowdonia Canoe Club

Thanks. Sadly I don't have time to get to the Lodge for training courses at the moment, work is still busy and we are doing extensive house renovations! An hour here and there is all I can do just now.

We had planned to get onto the Oban pool sessions...until the direct road there got shut by a landslide! Who knows when that will re-open 🤦🤣

Living by the sea in remote parts of Scotland is great, but definitely makes it harder to access courses etc!

Had another wee session in the sea this morning though and I feel like a little more progress was made. Will keep trying little and often and will get there eventually!

[ChrisJK]

Thanks on the rocks for the paper under the secondary arm to keep the structure tight as I seem to go awry at that point plus not getting my paddle to the surface and starting a sweep at 90 degrees.
I have probably been learning for around 4 years! mostly over winter in the pool as our club has the weekly use of one for two 1hr sessions which I can now see is a very useful facility.
Previous to this winter I have to admit that i have in reality been uncommitted to getting the job done as it's not entirely pleasant being upside down in the water.
I have found dong hip flicks by inverting and righting holding the pool rail and keeping laid back with head coming up last has helped.
I have now at least completed several rolls though a couple of those were assisted by contact with the pool base. I have also found that support sculling trying to get the head close to water has also helped along with low and high braces.

[Miamaria]

Yes, this! And a nose plug too :)

Do you actually have a nose plug, or do you mean nose clip? I have tried to find nose plugs, but no luck so far. Anyone know where to get some?

[ChrisJK]

Nose plugs will do the trick I suspect that's what Leigh means.
I can confirm that using goggles and nose clips has really helped me start to get a working roll. Seeing where the paddle is going in relation to the kayak and the surface without water in your eyes and water up your nose. It's helped in learning to swap from a failed standard roll to a Pawlatta position whilst immersed and get upright.
What has also helped is practising immersion at the side of the pool ,leaning right back and endeavouring righting with not much upper body strength and hip flick.
Being part of a club with weekly access to a pool is also a resource which I've come to appreciate

[andynormancx]

I definitely recommend the Glen Lodge videos:

[AllanH]

I found that one of the biggest hurdles for me was the 'hip flick'. Timing it properly in relation to the paddle movement always eluded me (and I never quite understood what the movement should be, either!).

In the end, what works for me is to get into the proper start position in relation to the kayak (leant as far as possible over the side, as if I'm trying to get my head above the surface), and remember the end position (leant backwards over the opposite side of the kayak, ideally with shoulders parallel to the kayak). I tend to move fairly smoothly between those positions (no 'flick' at all) and it works fine. In fact my son managed to roll on his third attempt (and fourth and fifth and sixth) based on those instructions. When I fail, it's nearly always because I don't get the start position right or because I try to end up on the back of the kayak instead of out to the opposite side.

[Chris Bolton]

what works for me is to get into the proper start position in relation to the kayak

Yes, same for me. The big thing to avoid is trying to lever up the rigid unit of me sitting upright in the boat; there just isn't enough lift from the paddle to do that. So I keep the boat floating upside down, and reach body and paddle out to the side. At that point I'm not putting any pressure on the paddle, as the boat is stable in it's inverted position. Then, while body and paddle are floating as near to horizontal as possible, use that buoyancy and paddle pressure to support me to turn the boat upright. As the boat approaches a stable(ish) upright position, I can get my body back on board.

[PlymouthDamo]

Yes, this! And a nose plug too :)

Do you actually have a nose plug, or do you mean nose clip? I have tried to find nose plugs, but no luck so far. Anyone know where to get some?

I was waiting for Leighv to answer, but I'm pretty sure that nose plugs aren't a thing although you could probably shove an ear plug up each nostril...

If you're having the same problem as me with nose-clips, i.e. they slide off too easily, then saliva on the clip and your nose works wonders. However, if I've got sunblock on, then nothing will prevent them from sliding off, so I revert to a scuba diving mask which covers my nose.

[leighv]

Yes I meant a nose peg, not a plug! Not sure why I used the word plug!

[Franky]

Most people I know call them nose plugs, although they're not plugs. I do the same out of habit.

[ChrisJK]

A little detergent rubbed onto the goggle lenses and then washed off helps prevent them steaming up'
I was watched independantly last night by a couple of coaches, one noted that if a second attempt is needed I needed to repeat set up and lean well forward under water. I am at least using the pawlata as a get me up, so at least i'm building muscle memory.
Another coach who only does WW noted that I had my hands were too close together which I noted would probably be that I use Greenland paddles which perhaps I will look at hand position there. also
Any how spacing hands at shoulder width did make an immediate improvement.

[Chris Bolton]

to repeat set up and lean well forward under water.

Leaning well forward is something I forgot about after years of only rolling a canoe (single blade, kneeling), with the result that all my attempts failed. Now I aim to put my head on the deck, which gets my hand out of the water.

[ChrisJK]

I have re read through this thread all great help.
I am fortunate to belong to a club with weekly access to a pool but it's not generally oversubscribed.
So I can do little and often.
Yesterday evening I basically spent most of the hour rolling without needing to make a wet exit.
I heard in my head all the bits of coaches advice which ontherocks refers to and again some more timely repeated ones yesterday.
My goggles started to fog after half an hour which helps to simulate more of the real probable experience, lower visibility etc without the distraction of chlorine in the eyes and up the nose
I think I managed over 10rolls , some of which on third attempt I used an extended stroke.
I guess the next stages are to firstly go over on my happy side and then set up underwater and then attempt on my off side.
I am using a club boat which may be easier to roll than my Pyrahna H3
I don't think I'll master setting up on my offside just now.
Plus at some point try rolling with pogies as I often wear them

[Cavemud]

I initially learnt to roll in two days, but my offside roll took many months and still is a bit sketchy!!!