C to C roll

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Debruce
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C to C roll

Post by Debruce »

Hi all

I came across a post from back on 2014 on this forum and someone stated that the C to C roll was first introduced by an American paddler called Michael Mouse!! Didn’t seem to be in the tone of a windup and despite google searches I have never been able to source when and by whom this roll was first made popular.
Anyone know?
seawolf856
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Re: C to C roll

Post by seawolf856 »

The lack of response to this post speaks volumes.
ChrisJK
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Re: C to C roll

Post by ChrisJK »

Rolling in general appears to have been invented by the Inuit and probably somewhere in those permutations someone did a C to C roll and sometime quite a long time later someone else who plausibly could be an American claimed to have invented it.
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Re: C to C roll

Post by seawolf856 »

So let's change the direction of this post as I strongly suspect that the mention of the C to C roll being invented by 'Michael (Micky) Mouse' suggests that someone thinks the C to C roll is indeed a Micky Mouse roll.
Therefore the new question is - is the C to C roll a Micky Mouse roll? and if so, why?
Personally, I can only perform a basic sweep roll and I have no desire to learn the C to C roll or any other roll for that matter, so I wouldn't really know why someone might think it is a Micky Mouse roll.
Rolling in general is not one of my favourite pastimes, I would rather stay upright in the first place.
Franky
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Re: C to C roll

Post by Franky »

seawolf856 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:25 am
Therefore the new question is - is the C to C roll a Micky Mouse roll? and if so, why?
I'd say it's easier to learn than the screw roll. It involves two relatively simple gestures (reaching out and pulling down), rather than one more complex gesture (moving your paddle in a screw motion at the correct diagonal angle (or what feels like a diagonal angle to me)).

I learned the C-to-C roll, as taught in a video by the great Ken Whiting. I liked the way it broke the move down into component parts.

Over time, for me, the two gestures morphed into one, and my roll now looks like a screw roll. I don't know if it is though.

With rolling, it's whatever works. Better a consistent C-to-C roll than an unreliable screw roll.
seawolf856 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2023 9:25 am
Rolling in general is not one of my favourite pastimes, I would rather stay upright in the first place.
I mostly paddle white water. Rolling is a way of life for me, especially in my playboat. I don't mind - it keeps me in practice.
Chris Bolton
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Re: C to C roll

Post by Chris Bolton »

I've always thought of the C to C as a learning aid or concept, not a separate roll. Rolling is a complex skill to learn and different people have different problems, which is why the advice people get from friends or coaches often doesn't help. So we need a wide range of ways to understand it. My first ever roll was effectively similar to a C to C; I was told that my paddle was going too deep, so (in a pool) I decided that I would just focus on getting the paddle out at 90º and on the surface, and not attempt to roll. To my surprise, I found I was upright, with very little effort. Once I could roll like that, it was easy to transition to a sweep.

The sweep is faster, which is useful on whitewater with the risk of hitting rocks, but in a fully loaded sea kayak it's better to slow the roll down to give the boat time to move, and the C to C concept can help there.
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Ceegee
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Re: C to C roll

Post by Ceegee »

That was my 2014 post btw.

Iirc the Michael Mouse reference was in the Derek Hutchinson book, or it might have been Matt Boze?
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arran paddler
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Re: C to C roll

Post by arran paddler »

I think the C to C, or brace, roll is a great roll. Along with a sweep roll, screw roll, pawlata, reverse screw, etc. Or whatever works for you.
I like to introduce learners to it after learning their own screw/sweep basic working roll as a way to develop a snappy hip movement and to get a feel for exiting the water with your face down and it leaving the water last, after the boat has been rolled over onto it's hull. I don't think you can do a brace roll without having the mobility to get into the initial shape, the first C, and then reverse that shape to the opposite C. I think it's a safe roll in as in rocky water it protects your face as you get upright, no looking up at the sky and having to reorientate yourself. I've seen a few paddlers managing screw rolls, often only just, with almost no hip mobility and no hip 'snap' who would be better paddlers for improving their hip function. In almost any other sport we would look to mobility and the ability to control force before letting learners develop but in kayaking it's not done as much. C to C rolls are a really good gauge of certain movement/mobility areas that we might want to inmprove, and I think really fun to learn, especially the bit where you stop trying to pull yourself up out of the water and instead just roll that boat over by heading for the last C with your hips/spine, and as if by magic.....you are up.
The best rollers I have seen, and I'm not one of them, can roll up from any position without all the setting up or sticking to a one particular type. They just naturally get to a place where they can brace and up they come, or have a climbing sweep from any position and again up they come. Why would you not practice all roll types to improve a learners skill, or your own, by having access to lots of movement solutions so you can be more skillful? Or have more fun experimenting with new skills? Or be safer in the sea environment?

So is it a Mickey Mouse roll? Maybe, if you fluff it.......and no, if you make it back up.....what I do think is a mickey mouse roll though is the 'star gazer' roll that I've seen a bit of recently, but more on that another time.

Happy rolling.
on the rocks
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Re: C to C roll

Post by on the rocks »

The C to C roll seems to demand more flexibility and/or arm length to get its set up position (paddle at 90 degrees to boat) while the boat is fully upside down. With a sweep roll the lift you get from the sweep will ideally have rotated the hull through up to 90 degrees by the time the paddle shaft is 90 degrees to the keel line so putting much less demand on torso, shoulder and arm flexibility. I’m not keen on the term “hip snap” as it implies a violent jerky movement to complete the roll, whereas an efficiently executed sweep roll should just require a gentle knee push and sit up. Besides I’ve never been able to do perform a C to C roll, sweep all the way for me.
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Re: C to C roll

Post by ChrisJK »

I have found wearing goggles and a nose clip have been very helpful in my lengthy learning curve and part of that learning curve has entailed a few T rescues when I've not bottled and bailed out (something I had to do today when capsized amongst trees,keeping the boat and retrieving the paddle as part of the experience)
However I have now managed a few what are probably sweep rolls in the pool and with goggles and observations from others one is able to analyse errors.
My last roll (pawlata) done this week got me up but I felt a sharp intercostal muscle twinge which has taken a couple of days to subside. I guess that is partly related to my age but probably because I'm not lying back and flexing my hips at the right moment and relying on upper body strength.
A couple of folks have suggested I tried a C to C roll but I thought that would just add to the confusion.
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Re: C to C roll

Post by Franky »

on the rocks wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2023 5:45 pm
The C to C roll seems to demand more flexibility and/or arm length to get its set up position (paddle at 90 degrees to boat) while the boat is fully upside down.
Realistically I I think 45 degrees is probably about what many people achieve (me included) - but it helps to aim for 90 :)
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