Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

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adventureagent
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Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Hatch rim is attached with black, hard substance which seems to have flowed/pooled after screws were applied to seal it to the under-deck ring. Trouble is, the nuts, under deck, catch things being extracted from hatch, such as bags, etc. Some screws project beyond the nuts, risking ripping bags, light Gore Tex and such.

Anyone experience this problem? Would I be ill-advised, or well-advised to remove the screws permanently and "goop" the holes?

Further, the hatch covers have a fitting moulded-in for attaching a tether. I used one of those "eyes" that fit to electrical wire by squeezing metal tangs. I placed the "eye" between the nut and the hatch rim, under deck. The cord parted company with the "eye". I'd like some advice for retaining the cover/rim cord.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Chris Bolton »

I would leave the screws in but cut them off flush with nuts using a thin cutting disc on a Dremel. If you don't have a Dremel you won't regret buying one, they are very useful. Once screw points are off you should be able to smooth any other snags with Emery cloth.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Jim »

Stainless dome nuts? You may still need to cut some screws to the right length to work in dome nuts.
A cheaper alternative is plastic/rubber caps you can stick on the screws, but I don;t know where you get them and they always fall off anyway. You might be able to achieve a compromise using some of the dip in plastic you can get for sealing ropes and such, if you can paint it onto the ends of the screws.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by twopigs »

Jim wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:56 pm
Stainless dome nuts? You may still need to cut some screws to the right length to work in dome nuts.
A cheaper alternative is plastic/rubber caps you can stick on the screws, but I don;t know where you get them and they always fall off anyway. You might be able to achieve a compromise using some of the dip in plastic you can get for sealing ropes and such, if you can paint it onto the ends of the screws.
Try shrink wrap??
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Thanks, all.

Not cap bolts.

Hadn't thought of Dremel. Have a nice 4000 unit.

It's a bit cool for prolonged exposure out on the deck, so I'll 'tend to this in a warmer time. Although I"m itching to do paddle-related things.

So is it common thought that the screws/nuts NOT be removed? I notice they're not all torqued snug, so I wondered if their main function is just to sqeueeze the adhesive out, after which they don't really serve ?
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Chris Bolton »

I replaced a factory fitted hatch because it was screw type seal and leaked. The flange was fixed with bolts and adhesive, but when I took it apart, 75% of the adhesive had debonded. My thoughts are that if the adhesive fails and it's bolted, you get a small leak. If it's not bolted and the whole hatch assembly comes off you have a big leak. I know modern adhesives are very good, but I don't know if they are tested after 10 years use on a boat that gets hit by waves, soaked in salt water and stored in an unheated shed.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Pedro75 »

How about a blob of silicone?

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Fozzy »

I've got a couple of boats with the same thing. I went with dome nuts as it means I can still easily remove them later if I ever need.
If you don't want domes what about just get some shorter bolts?

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by pathbrae »

A bit of epoxy repair putty might help to cover the exposed bolt heads and nuts. Just be careful as you might want to remove it all later.

I replaced all the bolted hatch rims on an old Island Kayaks boat about 5 years ago Every one of them had cracked at the bolt holes and was leaking (having a more than half full of water bow compartment in a lumpy F8 made for an "interesting" paddle - that was what finally made me strip out the old rims and replace them.)
Once the bolts were out the rims were fairly easy to remove with a few wedges to pry them off and the deck recess cleaned up with only some minor damage (I think there had been some voids in the original lay-up leaving a thin unsupported layer of gelcoat which had to be filled and gel-coated again)
The new rims were bonded on with two-pack actylic from "The Glue People" and have been absolutely fine ever since.

I covered the bolts through the hull for my compass (same boat) in blobs of epoxy repair putty under the deck then a thin (tissue) layer of fibreglass layed over the lot to protect everything in the front hatch from the sharp edges on the nuts.
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Ceegee »

I've never heard of a rim failing catastrophically (coming off suddenly). It will leak long before that. A leaking rim needs attention!

Screws are a bad idea. They introduce point stresses, cracking, and potential leaks. There is a reason manufacturers don't use them and they are usually retrofitted, as seems to be in your case, to solve a problem with a belt'n'braces mentality rather than addressing the issue and doing a proper repair.

Used correctly, methacrylate adhesives like Devweld, or even just plain Sikaflex, are pretty bombproof. I've been convinced of this talking to reputable manufacturers, including Mike Webb at Rockpool, and found their advice 100% on my own builds.

I recommend replacing the old rims with new ones, glued onto properly prepared bases. They are around £20.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

I might have clarified that this is a new boat and these hatches don't leak (yet). Main issue is catching items on their way out. Chris, Pedro, Fozzy, Pathbrae and Ceegee, thank you all for the input and ideas. I'll contemplate them all over this remaining winter. I don't like to remove the screws, thinking they had a reason (secondary defence?). Perhaps it was just to seat the rim base. Again, thanks to everyone for replying.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Ceegee »

adventureagent wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:20 pm
I might have clarified that this is a new boat and these hatches don't leak (yet).
In that case I'd go with Jim's suggestion, dome nuts. What manufacturer is it? Most I know of just glue.
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Ceegee wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:00 pm
adventureagent wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:20 pm
I might have clarified that this is a new boat and these hatches don't leak (yet).
In that case I'd go with Jim's suggestion, dome nuts. What manufacturer is it? Most I know of just glue.
Dome nuts on longer screws would still catch, I think. Will review in warmer days (ahead) . Prob'ly gonna Dremel 'm, THEN maybe dome 'm.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Robert Craig »

I've had to replace a hatch ring cracked at the bots (and leaking at the cracks). I bonded it in with no bolts, and it's solid. I wouldn't use bolts again, and if I found bolts I'd take them out.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Robert Craig wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 2:24 pm
I've had to replace a hatch ring cracked at the bots (and leaking at the cracks). I bonded it in with no bolts, and it's solid. I wouldn't use bolts again, and if I found bolts I'd take them out.
Yes, I've seen hatch rims cracked near screws. I suspect the black, hard substance is some form of glue and removal of screws would just need a filling / cover over the holes. All this information / suggestions helps. And we all learn so much about "stuff" we don't ask, here on this site. Great fellowship. Thanks.

ps: I do not believe in what so many do as normal practice - pounding a hatch cover on. Even on plastic boats, as a matter of good practice. I work it down without pounding, because I believe there's potential to crack rims, break the seal between rim and deck = leaks. I don't like leaks.
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Ceegee »

Yep, they are Kajaksport hatches.
Image
Same as used by Rockpool, amongst others, who glue and DO NOT bolt.
I do not believe in what so many do as normal practice - pounding a hatch cover on
I spray a light coat of silicone lubricant on the rims from time to time. Make fitting covers much easier.

Also, check your hatch covers don't dome during warm weather. If they do, its good to drill a small (~2mm) pressure relief hole near the top of the bulkheads. Water won't get in. A lot of inexperienced manufacturers don't bother to do this.

Also make sure the covers are attached. There are lugs both inside and out for this. If inside you need a lug in the compartment too, outside, to a deckline. They sink if dropped, and at £25-40 a pop!!! (not to mention the immediate emergency at sea). In answer to the second part of your question, 2mm cord to a "D" ring glassed to the deck underside with tape is good. Or tie the external lug to the deck line with around 30cm of the same cord, maybe with a plastic carabiner.

[
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Chris Bolton »

Same as used by Rockpool, amongst others, who glue and DO NOT bolt.
I'm happy with a factory glued hatch rim from a manufacturer I trust, but if the manufacturer has used bolts and I don't know what the glue is, I wouldn't take them out. I chose to use bolts when replacing a hatch on an older boat because I can't replicate factory conditions and the kind of primers and cleaners they use are only available in quantities that make them very expensive for a single hatch.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Ceegee »

Chris Bolt On wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:31 am
I chose to use bolts when replacing a hatch
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Ceegee wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:59 am
Yep, they are Kajaksport hatches.
Image
Same as used by Rockpool, amongst others, who glue and DO NOT bolt.
I do not believe in what so many do as normal practice - pounding a hatch cover on
I spray a light coat of silicone lubricant on the rims from time to time. Make fitting covers much easier.

Also, check your hatch covers don't dome during warm weather. If they do, its good to drill a small (~2mm) pressure relief hole near the top of the bulkheads. Water won't get in. A lot of inexperienced manufacturers don't bother to do this.

Also make sure the covers are attached. There are lugs both inside and out for this. If inside you need a lug in the compartment too, outside, to a deckline. They sink if dropped, and at £25-40 a pop!!! (not to mention the immediate emergency at sea). In answer to the second part of your question, 2mm cord to a "D" ring glassed to the deck underside with tape is good. Or tie the external lug to the deck line with around 30cm of the same cord, maybe with a plastic carabiner.

[
Like you, I use silicone spray too. Huge difference. I make sure to align perfectly, too, as I find even a few degrees make a big diff.

An' yep, I drilled my boats in the middle of the bulkhead. Come to think of it though, I haven't done that to this Arctic 585 yet. I haven't noticed the whaling of the covers though (ew, could be a problem somewhere).

I attached the covers to the bolts, under the nut, inside by means of a small "eye" from auto parts. However, this parte off the attaching cord. Factory issue was above deck. Not pretty and I like a clean deck. Ya, the last 8" cover for my XP18 was $80 (After my nice, self-made neoprene one's glue parted. But man, did that ever look good! I like your advice of a glassed D ring. Will have to get some epoxy. Might have that with Lynda's Swift solo canoe. I have Ds.

Thanks for the comments. Much appreciated.
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Chris Bolton wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:31 am
Same as used by Rockpool, amongst others, who glue and DO NOT bolt.
I'm happy with a factory glued hatch rim from a manufacturer I trust, but if the manufacturer has used bolts and I don't know what the glue is, I wouldn't take them out. I chose to use bolts when replacing a hatch on an older boat because I can't replicate factory conditions and the kind of primers and cleaners they use are only available in quantities that make them very expensive for a single hatch.
Ah, more wisdom / experience. O.K. Noted and smart; thanks.
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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Chris Bolton »

If the boat doesn't have a fitting to attach a hatch cover to, I take a 4cm length of nylon cord, fray 1cm at each end into a fan and 'laminate' it under the deck with epoxy and possible fibreglass tissue and peelply to smooth over. That gives me a non-snag attachment,

I carry a small tube of silicon grease (eBay) for lubricating hatch covers - only a very thin smear is required, and it migrates to any gaps. If you put too much on, it attracts sand.

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by Jim »

Pretty unusual for sea kayak manufacturers to bolt hatches now. Since they are Kajaksport rims you could consider taking them out, filling the holes in the deck, and then bonding them back in properly. Once the existing adhesive is cleaned off, if the rim is a close fit to the deck, a methacrylate adhesive should be ideal (still never used one myself), if there is a gap that needs filling, use an epoxy adhesive. In either case you will need to clamp the hatch in place during curing, for epoxy I would clean up around the joint and then lay some release film over the top (with a hole where the hatch hole is), and then inflate an airbag in the compartment to press the hatch against the deck, with the release film between the rim and the airbag so any glue that squeezes out won't glue the airbag in. For methacrylate I would take the same approach, but would have to do some research first to make sure my release film will release from MA first :-)

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Re: Hatch rim screws, catch fabric etc

Post by adventureagent »

Jim wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pm
Pretty unusual for sea kayak manufacturers to bolt hatches now. Since they are Kajaksport rims you could consider taking them out, filling the holes in the deck, and then bonding them back in properly. Once the existing adhesive is cleaned off, if the rim is a close fit to the deck, a methacrylate adhesive should be ideal (still never used one myself), if there is a gap that needs filling, use an epoxy adhesive. In either case you will need to clamp the hatch in place during curing, for epoxy I would clean up around the joint and then lay some release film over the top (with a hole where the hatch hole is), and then inflate an airbag in the compartment to press the hatch against the deck, with the release film between the rim and the airbag so any glue that squeezes out won't glue the airbag in. For methacrylate I would take the same approach, but would have to do some research first to make sure my release film will release from MA first :-)
Yes, I was surprised to find screws. I don't know that I've ever had that on rims. I've been using kayaks since the sixties (whenever that was). The whole idea of a virtual re-make is, to me, too much effort / risk compared to just Dremeling, cap bolting, etc. As to methacrylate, it's a new name to me, but likely a common bond for things like kayaks. I know that there are hazards with some substances, including that some hardened material becomes carcinogenic when a grinder is applied. As well, I don't have a sheltered, warm place to work until paddle season here in Ontario, by which time I'd rather paddle than puddle and fuddle. So, the simplest route is my choice, while stating that I can appreciate how much better methacrylate might bond for this application.

I am truly thankfully surprised at the amount of community response.
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