Restoration of P&H Umnak Icefloe

[branwell]

I am about to embark on a restoration of a P&H Icefloe.



The kayak is in fairly reasonable shape for something made in 1983. My list of jobs so far are:
1.Repair two areas of the rear deck gelcoat which have cracked
2.Repair a couple of gelcoat spider cracks on the hull
3.Wet and dry the hull and deck to restore the colour and remove some of the lighter scratches
4.Remove the bar footrest and set up a foam packing in front of the bulkhead
5.Glass worn areas on the cockpit floor which have suffered from heal-rub.
6.Fit new keelstrip
7.Polish top and bottom.
8. New deck lines and elastics
9.Sit back and enjoy

I am not sure about a couple of items and have some questions:
- What would the best way be to address the “furring” of the glass cloth which has suffered heal rub in the cockpit? Would woven cloth laid up with flowcoat work?
- Does any one know what the RAL or BS number is for the shade of orange gelcoat used by P&H on these boats of this era?
- Can anyone recommend a company which can reproduce the vinyl stickers?

Thanks in advance

[Chris Bolton]

If it's furring, it's probably diolen [polyester] cloth, not glass. That would be common in boats from that time. Glass doesn't fur, the fibres break off cleanly. I would use kevlar cloth if you can, as it will resist abrasion better, and lay it up with flowcoat or plain resin, fairly generously, with peelply to keep the edges smooth and flush. Getting a good bond to 37 year old polyester that's had muddy heels rubbed into it may not be easy with polyester resin, I'd use epoxy, it bonds well to cured polyester (which is not true the other way round) and penetrates well.

A search or other threads on restoration might turn up a vinyl supplier, I vaguely remember one being mentioned.

[Jim]

1) I agree with Chris, Kevlar and Diolen fur up, no need to use flowcoat, use epoxy, lay a piece of peel ply over slightly larger then the wet area and rub it down well with another piece of peel ply to ensure all the air is squeeed out. You can often tape the peel ply down, but it doesn't always work well internally but once you have peel ply in place you could use a sandbag or something to put pressure on during curing (wrap it in cling film because some resin will come through the peel ply. When cured remove the sandbag and find a dry edge of peel ply and peel it up, you will be left with a slightly textured (like the peel ply weave) but neat snag free finish. I have been experimenting with a different material in this area, but not for long enough yet to say if it works, I can say it is harder to get a good finish so I don't know how much more I will experiment with it.

2) Looks like my old sea king which seemed to match 'tangerine' pretty well. You will have a better chance of matching after polishing. Probably your best bet is to ask P&H, I understand Graham has a good memory...

3) In terms of stickers, there are probably thousands of small business who can do them, if you would like to maintain a paddling connection, try:
https://www.perfectlyroyle.co.uk/ or
https://tailoredbranding.co.uk/
Jazz Royle might be better for small volume orders.

[branwell]

Many thanks for the advice Chris and Jim. Above is a photo showing the cockpit floor including 37 years of grime. Do you think this surface looks like diolin? Maybe difficult to tell from this photo.

[Jim]

That looks like glass woven roving to me, I can see the fraying around the heel hole but it is quite different to the furring I was envisaging from working on kevlar and carbon/kevlar boats.
Glass and diolen are both white so difficult to tell apart visually, I did have a boat with a diolen deck for a while, but recently I have mostly worked on carbon/kevlar.
You will need to sand before repairing it, if the sanded area comes up fluffy a bit like cotton wool, it will be diolen, but if it stays much as it is but cleaner looking it is probably glass.
Worth repairing with something harder wearing either way.

[Chris Bolton]

That's the same woven cloth I remember from a Baidarka of that era. Whether it's glass or Diolen doesn't actually matter, a repair with Kevlar and epoxy is the appropriate fix in either case.

[SJD]

What is going on with the oval shaped spot forward and left of the keel line? Has it been rubbed through a single layer, or is it down to the gelcoat, and has the surrounding area delaminated? Kind of hard to tell from the picture.

Regarding removal of the foot bar and padding out the front bulkhead, have you confirmed the bulkhead is sound enough for foot pressure. May not be a big deal but worth a look and glass reinforcement could be necessary. I did the same with an old Nordkapp and the bulkhead flexed alot before being beefed up.

Good luck and looks like a nice project.

[branwell]

The worn patch looks to be just through the top layer of woven cloth but it will be getting patched, then the whole area given another layer of woving roving/diolin/carbon fibre. Not sure which material i will go for just yet, but will be using epoxy as recommended above.

I contacted P&H with regards the colour to try and get a reasonable match for the deck gelcoat but no reply yet.

Will probably reinforce the bulkhead whilst i am doing all this.

[JeromeWhitehorse]

Hi, do you consider to add a retractable skeg? I have an Icefloe too and I am thinking to add a vario skeg and to diminish the integral skeg a bit. Did you paddle it?

[Chris Bolton]

Just for info, P&H made a version of of the Icefloe with a retractable skeg, called a Fjord. I tried one in about 1984/5, it surfed well (on a following sea, not a beach break).

[branwell]

Hi, do you consider to add a retractable skeg? I have an Icefloe too and I am thinking to add a vario skeg and to diminish the integral skeg a bit. Did you paddle it?

I have no immediate plans to fit a retractable skeg. I am going to restore it first then use it for a bit.

[charleston14]

If you can bring yourself to do it you can cut away a small section of the deck at bow or stern, sand and buff it then send to east coast fibreglass supplies, they can then analyse the colour using a machine and mix up a custom flowcoat colour that matches. They will send the piece back, which you can then reattach and repair. I couldn’t bring myself to do that to an Anas Acuta so settled on a close match using a piece of close matching plastic that I sent off for analysis. Scour your every possession as you might find a matching colour. They need a 50p sized piece to analyse.

My tip for removal of the footrest brackets is to screw a chisel onto a 1m section of broom handle and attack the cloth that’s bonded to the top and bottom surfaces of the horizontal plates, it will pry off, once the plates are off it’s easy to cut away the bits of cloth left on the side of the hull

For replacement stickers art and sea did me some great anas Acuta ones so I can recommend them.

Best price I could find for a large block of closed cell foam was haymoor products on eBay.

If you don’t have a heated workshop you might have issues with flowcoat not curing. Temperature is important. I found out the hard way.

[Ceegee]

@ charleston14. 50p is about the size of the cut-out for a pump outlet, or if widening to fit a day hatch to the chimp pump hole. Thanks for the tip on cheap foam. Been looking too, just ordered.

[Ceegee]

The easiest test is if you can snip a few threads and put in a gas lighter flame. Diolen, a polyester melts and burns. Woven roving, being glass, just glows, whitens then crumbles.

[OccasionalKayakist]

I contacted P&H with regards the colour to try and get a reasonable match for the deck gelcoat but no reply yet.

How have you been getting on with this little project? I have been given a similar Umnak. But, it needs considerably more work.
FWIW, If P&H haven't got back to you, since your original enquiry, the current colour match, they told me was BS4380 (International Orange).
Also, P&H talk me that they had some Firebird decals available (that was in 2019)
You may already have had all your queries answered and your project completed. If so, I hope you've had some fun, in the boat.

[pretty_plankton]

Hello from another P&H Umnak Ice Floe enjoyer, rediscovering the joy of paddling after 30 years away from the sport. I'm also curious how the project(s) here turned out so far?

A month ago a fully kitted out kayak from a family member was rescued from storage and has now found a new home here in Amsterdam. It is a 1984 Ice Floe built by Harrie Tieken when he still had his workshop in The Netherlands. I intend to do a full refit, the boat needed some work after fourty years.




So far I've checked the basics:

• Hull is in good -lovingly used- condition. Come spring I want to have the scratches fixed. Will leave discoloration alone.
• Hatches and pump still work! Will look for new gaskets, the hatches have the patent numbers listed
• Learned how to reinstall fresh deck lines
• Currently looking around for a replacement Suunto K-158 compass as the old one started to leak
• The 1980s footrest needs to go or be upgraded somehow, already got stuck behind it twice and tipped over

Question: I have not been able to get in touch with P&H using the forum on the website. If anybody could PM me working contact information that'd be splendid.

[Ceegee]

But lose the 1970s Kobber 90° white water paddles. Soooo retro.

[Chris Bolton]

I have not been able to get in touch with P&H using the forum on the website.

The P&H company that built the Icefloe was taken over by Pyranha, and I doubt that the present company will know anything about the Icefloe. Since yours was actually built by Harrie Tieken I am unsure what you would ask P&H, as even the original P&H only built the boat, the design was by Derek Hutchinson. If you can explain what you want to know I might be able to find somebody who knows.

[Ceegee]

I once owned an original McNulty-built Baidarka, and I knew Derek as a kid. He and Tom Caskey examined my friend Geoff Bent and me for our Advanced Sea Proficiency in 1980. Geoff went on to design the Seaking as our club boat, partly to avoid the Baidarka, and his design was eventually commercialized by Trylon IRC.

Most of the DH designs were, quite honestly, a bit of a pig to paddle, and the kludge of an HM style fixed skeg didn't help. The only model I possibly disliked more was the Valley Aquila.

It's nice to see a few being preserved though, but it's not a great beginner-intermediate kayak by modern standards. Me, I'd go for a Romany if you want a classic.

The various nose artwork is actually Derek's, and reproduced in some of his books, so it might be possible to scan and enlarge some and get vinyl prints, subject to copyright of course

[pretty_plankton]

But lose the 1970s Kobber 90° white water paddles. Soooo retro.

Well excuse me! Over here we call that vintage instead of just retro. See how how windy it got in down here in the 80s? We needed those 90° Kobers! We had to be able to defend ourselves against swans with cygnets when paddling the marshes of Noord-Holland. And the odd jetski or drunken party boat. Bad news for the retro paddle haters: I have just installed new drip rings for a hefty total of five euro so I'll be stuck with that investment for the next fourty years.

In all seriousness the Kober works fine getting back onto the water, however I do want something nicer next year. The original paddles that were used with the Icefloe have been lost unfortunately. My father had both a good main and split reserve paddle on deck. Only a month ago I joined the local padding club (KV Sloterplas in Amsterdam) and can try out a variety of different kayaks and gear. Did enjoy some of the newer gear: it is so light! And cheap and available compared to when this boat was built.



There's a "when you were [...] I studied the blade" meme in there somewhere...

[pretty_plankton]

I have not been able to get in touch with P&H using the forum on the website.

The P&H company that built the Icefloe was taken over by Pyranha, and I doubt that the present company will know anything about the Icefloe. Since yours was actually built by Harrie Tieken I am unsure what you would ask P&H, as even the original P&H only built the boat, the design was by Derek Hutchinson. If you can explain what you want to know I might be able to find somebody who knows.

Thank you so much for replying! I have been reading up on some kayaking history in the meantime. Recently an autographed copy of Sea Canoeing, third edition by Derek has been passed on to me. The description of the behaviour of the Icefloe is pretty accurate. Hint: it enjoys going straight. Still, never got a good answer to my question of "why did you buy an arctic expedition kayak when you had a nice Weekender already?"

My reason for contacting P&H was simple: there are large "Manufactured by P&H" stickers on bow and stern, plus inside the cockpit two labels with hull number and date. Hopefully some nerdy engineer (...like myself) enjoys historical archives and/or knows who to ask or where to find information. The replies here have been such a joy to read, also thanks for the maintenance tips and tricks provided already. My personal guess is that the base hull, or maybe even complete kayak, was built by P&H and then detailed by Harrie Tieken. Unless the original invoices are unearthed I'll never know for sure. One thing we do know for sure is the Suunto compass was a custom bit of work by Tieken.

Will write more tomorrow. For now here are the relevant labels:

[Chris Bolton]

Hopefully some nerdy engineer (...like myself) enjoys historical archives and/or knows who to ask or where to find information

That could be me..
The stickers definitely show that the hull and deck moulding was done by P&H in Derby. The person who might have told you the most would have been Dave Patrick (the P in P&H) but sadly he's no longer here (https://www.phseakayaks.com/blog/rememb ... 1939-2022/). However, from that article, the Production Manager when your boat was built would have been Perran Shreeve, and he is still in that job. P&H are now owned by Pyranha, which is based in Runcorn, but I think the P&H boats are still made in Derby which is where he will be based. I suspect that the reason you haven't been able to contact P&H is that as manufacturers, they usually work through dealers, not direct to the public. You could try asking Go Kayaking North West, which is the Pyranha Group retail shop in Runcorn, if they can help.

I don't think I ever paddled an Icefloe but I knew several people who did. It's big boat, and there was an all white one which was always known as the Iceberg.

I was hoping I'd have a copy of the ISKA sea kayak directory, which was a list of all the sea kayaks available in Europe and who built them, but the earliest I've found so far is 2004 and that only list P&H as builders of the ICefloe.

[Ceegee]

Funnily enough, in the 1970s Derek advocated his own propretary sea paddle design, which was basically a rectangular 4"×18" board on each end with no feather. In hindsight, not so far from the modern re-invention of the Greenland paddle.

Notwithstanding his paddling in a cotton T-shirt and no PFD.

[ChrisJK]

Interesting thread. I think a short term member of my club had one of those white iceflows (Iceberg) it had a tube in the cockpit which I didn't like the look of.
Plankton I was recently in N Holland and yes it can be windy and the Ijsel meer kicks off easily.
Ceegee re Derek I don't feel quite so bad stuffing a few items strapped into a dry bag on the back of my Shrike now

[pretty_plankton]

Hello again!

It's been a few weeks with quite a bit of paddling and boat repairs. Thanks for the all the names and history mentioned! Digging up information about Derek Hutchinson himself, the Iceflow and Fjord-variant, Harrie Tieken and the kayaking family history. For me it's getting too late in the season to go paddling as I do not have cold weather gear yet.



Rediscovery and refit is going well:

• toured almost 150km, including the Amsterdam canals and nearby nature parks
• found a new old stock Suunto sailboat compass that had fitting module
• the footrest works okay after removing the decaying anti-slip material
• P&H replied requesting some more details about the kayak, they will try to dig up some old information
• currently digging into the history of Derek Hutchinson and Harrie Tieken

Ceegee wrote:

Most of the DH designs were, quite honestly, a bit of a pig to paddle, and the kludge of an HM style fixed skeg didn't help
[...]
it's nice to see a few being preserved though, but it's not a great beginner-intermediate kayak by modern standards

Having a few more weeks of practice I get it! The Icefloe does feel exactly like Derek's description: hauls ass and gear in rough conditions for long distances. It is very fast and does turn very well when edged. Myself I am not confident and practiced enough to do that at speed. Improving my technique is very rewarding.

This Icefloe (Ice Floe?) does have a Tieken-introduced retractable skeg, which would make it a Fjord? We found some old writings by Tieken mentioning how he modified an Icefloe by removing the fixed skeg and replacing it with the first-for-kayaks retractable one. That Umank variant got the name Fjord after working well in sea trials. Any more information from other sources would be great. For now it seems this is perhaps a proto-Fjord; let's wait and see what P&H manages to dig up.

Come spring I will need to tweak the seat and padding. My butt is too small and I rattle around inside my kayak when doing rescue drills, leading to a lot of bruising and scratches. The cockpit rim will slam into my hip, after which I get dragged under by the boat itself. Straight up scary when I did not yet know what to expect.

Chris Bolton wrote:

The stickers definitely show that the hull and deck moulding was done by P&H in Derby. [...] You could try asking Go Kayaking North West, which is the Pyranha Group retail shop in Runcorn, if they can help.

When P&H replies again I will mention this, see who is up for some vintage boat fun. Now that the boat is in normal working order I can focus on doing improvements and hull repairs next year.

more Ceegee on Derek's unique approach to equipment

Funnily enough, in the 1970s Derek advocated his own propretary sea paddle design [...] cotton T-shirt [...] no PFD

His books were full of good advice... and then there's this picture right in the middle of it. Noticed his description of a proto-greenlander too! I could recently try one and it works well. Re: the shirt and PFD situation, I can only hope that's because there was more (film)crew nearby? Otherwise I don't know what he was aiming for.

[Ceegee]

Hello again!

It's been a few weeks with quite a bit of paddling and boat repairs. Thanks for the all the names and history mentioned! Digging up information about Derek Hutchinson himself,

If you aren't familiar, Andrew Elizaga (Dash Point Pirate) posted a great interview. Good old Derek, has to have the last word, and craps all over Matt Boze 😅. For all his faults, he taught me a lot, both what to, and not to do.



Nigel Foster, who still frequents the odd symposium, is another great 70s designer. Lovely chap, and incredibly modest. I guess Nigel Dennis and Frank Goodman make up the quadriga.

That's a great photo btw, and so original, right down to the aluminium Henderson hatches. A real museum piece.

[ChrisJK]

Plankton
Sounds like it’s worth shelling out on a dry suit.
There is so much interesting inland water to paddle on.

[pretty_plankton]

ChrisJK:

Interesting thread. I think a short term member of my club had one of those white iceflows (Iceberg) it had a tube in the cockpit which I didn't like the look of.

What is this 'tube', part of the pump system, the footrest or something else? The tube of the bilge pump sticks out from behind the seat ending right under it. Up front there's the alu crossbar as a footrest. For safety reasons I have removed the decaying anti-slip layer:

Plankton I was recently in N Holland and yes it can be windy and the Ijsel meer kicks off easily. [...]Sounds like it’s worth shelling out on a dry suit.
There is so much interesting inland water to paddle on.

Sloterplas gets spooky really quickly. When the wind hits just right it's a 2 kilometer windtunnel surrounded by trees for bonus windfalls. In places it is very shallow, too, and the chop can turn into pure chaos.

Don't have to money for a dry suit yet, I'm still using my 1970s Kober even! Invested my pocket money into basic repairs (e.g. decklines, seat) and quality of life (PFD, paddle float, nice drinks bottle). Last week I was able to invest some euros into a nice set of longjohn, shirt, booties and gloves. Last Sunday's tour was so much more comfortable already. Next year I will save up for a dry suit for sure.

Also Chris, if you're ever around these parts again, let me know if you want to try and meet up for some touring. Lots of great spots to explore.

[ChrisJK]

Hi Plankton
I can't categorically say that it was an Icefloe but fairly sure it was. The tube was probably for a hand pump and was basically set between the knees in the cockpit which was something I didn't like the sound of. The guy bought it as one of those "I'll have a go at that" purchases and we didn't see him for long.

I get that re wind I was prevented from doing much paddling on the Ijsel meer when we were over in August

Thanks our next visit to Nederland wil probably be in 2026 1 week near Blokzijl and 1 week near Edam.

I'll be studying this prior to travelling.
https://kanoweb.nl/kanokaart/#9/52.1265/5.5774

[Chris Bolton]

The 'knee tube' was a common thing in the 1980s. It was a 10-12cm half pipe or a bit more, fixed under the centre of the deck from the cockpit to about mid-calf. The tube was used for storage of essentials for safety or day use, before the invention of a compartment behind the cockpit with an offset day hatch. My tube had a closed end, rounded to make sure my feet couldn't catch on it.