Adapting Carbon Paddles

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SiKenn
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Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by SiKenn » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:50 pm

Heyup

Question re paddles. I have a set of Right handed Lendal Full Carbon Kinetic Touring 2 piece with Paddlock. Is it possible to get an adaptor/drill etc to make them adjustable to L or R handed and possibly feather? Celtic paddles have an adaptor but doesn't do everything I want to do.

Many Thanks in advance

Chris Bolton
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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Chris Bolton » Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:25 pm

Do you want to make them adjustable day to day, or to change them permanently to a different feather? For the former, I'd just drill a new hole for paddlok button. I'm not sure which Celtic adaptor you've looked at; is it the Leverlok?

Celtic are effectively the UK successor to Lendal, so they might be the best source of advice.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by SiKenn » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:08 pm

Hi
Thanks fro the reply. Day to day. I occasionally have to let L hand paddlers use my paddles. Yes it was the lever lock.
Thanks again

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Jim
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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Jim » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:31 pm

Depending on your feather you might find the holes are too close together if you drill another for LH use.
A better option would be to speak to Celtic paddles and see if any of their variable joints can be retrofitted instead of paddlock in the centre. If they can't help (for technical reasons they may be unwilling to advise anything that might weaken the joint, even if it is fairly certain it won't), the key information you need is that Lendal shaft ID is 27mm, so if you can find a leverlock system for abnother brand that fits a 27mm ID shaft you may be in business. Hydrasport did have double dutch lever locks a while ago (which I suspect would be 27mm but you would need to check), but they may have stopped importing new stock. Ultimate kayaks don't list joints but I suspect could provide them if asked - my Jantex lever lock is indexed left and right in 5 degree increments as well as having 5mm marks for length adjustment.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am

To help me understand what you're looking for, what is it about the Leverlok that doesn't do what you want it to?

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Jim » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:52 am

Chris Bolton wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am
To help me understand what you're looking for, what is it about the Leverlok that doesn't do what you want it to?
That's a fair question, apart from continuous feather and length adjustment (both of which a lever lock provides), what else is there to want from a shaft connector?

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by SiKenn » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:57 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am
To help me understand what you're looking for, what is it about the Leverlok that doesn't do what you want it to?
Im probably being a thick to be honest!
This is the reply I received from Celtic
"Hello Simon, the index grip on your 2 pieces would be wrong for a left-hand
feather so would need removing

The clamp part of the Nylon Leverlok could be used, but without length
adjustment, if you used the existing centre spigot without the button, but
you would add 2cm to the length of the paddle."

I fear I may have to get new paddles!

Thanks for all your help.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by SiKenn » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:58 pm

Jim wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:52 am
Chris Bolton wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am
To help me understand what you're looking for, what is it about the Leverlok that doesn't do what you want it to?
That's a fair question, apart from continuous feather and length adjustment (both of which a lever lock provides), what else is there to want from a shaft connector?
It is indeed a very fair question. Hopefully my reply to Chris will fill in my (brain) blanks.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by SiKenn » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:59 pm

Jim wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:31 pm
Depending on your feather you might find the holes are too close together if you drill another for LH use.
A better option would be to speak to Celtic paddles and see if any of their variable joints can be retrofitted instead of paddlock in the centre. If they can't help (for technical reasons they may be unwilling to advise anything that might weaken the joint, even if it is fairly certain it won't), the key information you need is that Lendal shaft ID is 27mm, so if you can find a leverlock system for abnother brand that fits a 27mm ID shaft you may be in business. Hydrasport did have double dutch lever locks a while ago (which I suspect would be 27mm but you would need to check), but they may have stopped importing new stock. Ultimate kayaks don't list joints but I suspect could provide them if asked - my Jantex lever lock is indexed left and right in 5 degree increments as well as having 5mm marks for length adjustment.
Cheers Jim, Ill get googling.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:00 pm

I've had a look at my Lendal paddles, with Paddlok, to see how the existing spigot is fixed, but I have only seen the Leverlok in photos. Here's a better picture than the one on Celtic site:

Image
the index grip on your 2 pieces would be wrong for a left-hand feather so would need removing
I think they're saying that the index grip for RH blades is on the right side of the shaft, while the left side is just sleeved in shrink wrap without an index. So a LH paddler would find that the index grip would get in the way of rotating the shaft and you'd need to remove it, and presumably replace with plain sleeve. But you'd want plain shafts with no indexing for any paddle that you want to swap from LH to RH so it's not really an objection to using a Leverlok.
The clamp part of the Nylon Leverlok could be used, but without length adjustment, if you used the existing centre spigot without the button, but you would add 2cm to the length of the paddle.
The existing spigot is solidly fixed into the shaft, and on mine the way the carbon is wrapped at the end of the main shaft is deliberately different to give more protection against splitting. So I think you need to retain that spigot, but as they suggest, it would be easy to remove the Paddlok button from it. The Leverlok appears to fit over the end of the plain side of the joint, and clamp onto the spigot. So you could rotate the two halves of the paddle to any angle you like, LH or RH, and clamp in that position. You wouldn't get length adjustment but I don't think you needed it? They're saying that the part of the Leverlok which holds the pivot would stop the spigot sliding in as far as it does with the Paddlok, so the paddle would be longer, but I don't see why you couldn't cut 2cm off the plain end of the shaft before fitting the Leverlok. You'd loose the reinforced end, but glueing the Leverlok around it would substitute.

Maybe Celtic will just sell you the Leverlok itself without the extended spigot. Googling for images of Celtic Paddles Leverlok suggests there may be a nylon version and an aluminium version, and also a version made/sold by Mitchell Blades (based in Chester).

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Jim » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:11 pm

The information about the index grip is complete nonsense, the grip is in line with the blade no matter what feather the shaft is set to. Whoever wrote that response for you was trying to think above their pay grade :)

The index hole in the shaft is a potential issue for just using paddlock, less so for converting to leverlock, except it is a weakness which may not be adequately compensated in leverlock, but if it happens to be in the 2cm you need to cut off, which it might just be, that issue goes away. But since the leverlock is external, it might not fit over the thickened region of shaft for the paddlock anyway, I had forgotten about that! It could be sanded down, after all you are going to epoxy a fitting onto it eventually. it is not that the spigot will slide in any less distance, it is that the leverlock connector will overhang by 2cm so when the shoulder is butted against it, you are 2cm longer. As you say cutting 2cm off the shaft first solves this.

The other issue I hadn't really considered since I assumed you would remove the paddlock spigot to fit leverlock (difficult, but can be done with care, if in doubt cut it off and then sand the ID to remove it, which will take a long time), is that the paddlock spigot has a hole in it and 2 slots to allow it to expand into the socket. If you take the button out, they are also going to allow the spigot to contract when you try to tighten leverlock and make the joint insecure. I think you will definitely need to look at removing the old spigot and using the new one supplied with a leverlock.

Remember to use respiratory protection when sanding any fibre reinforced composite.

Plastic vs Aluminium is a tough choice, for freshwater paddles I would always choose alumimium for reliability but it is notorious for suffering rapid corrosion in sea water so maybe not first choice for you?

As background, I have in the past bought spare paddlock buttons and plain spigots and added them to non-lendal paddles, always taking care to put a couple of wraps of carbon tape over the joint area to reinforce it as Lendal did on the factory built paddlok shafts. Slotting the spigots was a bit of a challenge - easy with an angle grinder, but also easy to overdo it!

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Chris Bolton » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:10 pm

The information about the index grip is complete nonsense, the grip is in line with the blade no matter what feather the shaft is set to
I agree, the only thing that makes sense is that they just meant the grip would be on the wrong half of the shaft.
the paddlock spigot has a hole in it and 2 slots to allow it to expand into the socket. If you take the button out, they are also going to allow the spigot to contract when you try to tighten leverlock and make the joint insecure.
I think the part that the Leverlok clamps to is on plain spigot, all the length with the slots and hole has to do is provide a contact point at the far end of the spigot.
remove the paddlock spigot to fit leverlock (difficult, but can be done with care
I think you can just wind in the locking mechanism, push the button into the shaft, hook a bit of wire round the paddlok and pull it out. I've only had problems removing broken paddloks where I can't screw in the adjuster.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Robert Craig » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:52 pm

Jim wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:11 pm
The information about the index grip is complete nonsense, the grip is in line with the blade no matter what feather the shaft is set to. Whoever wrote that response for you was trying to think above their pay grade :)

....
I may be missing something here. But I'd think the index grip needs to be in the dominant hand - so a left-hander would want the index on the shaft with the left blade.

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Jim » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:53 pm

Robert Craig wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:52 pm
Jim wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:11 pm
The information about the index grip is complete nonsense, the grip is in line with the blade no matter what feather the shaft is set to. Whoever wrote that response for you was trying to think above their pay grade :)

....
I may be missing something here. But I'd think the index grip needs to be in the dominant hand - so a left-hander would want the index on the shaft with the left blade.
I've always used index grip for both hands, only exception is my wing paddles and still not entirely happy with lack of index on them...

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Re: Adapting Carbon Paddles

Post by Robert Craig » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:34 pm

I really likee a nice solid index - that's what's kept me buying Lendal/Celtic paddles.

Never tried index-both-sides - there's an interesting thought.

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