Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

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Grian
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Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:53 pm

Been advised by a credible source that this boat combines stability of Romany and speed/ease of paddling of a much faster boat. Am now curious... being curious can't do any harm, right?

If you paddle one (specifically the small size as it seems kayaks vary considerably across sizes despite being the same model), how is it, particularly unloaded? Would you take photos with your good camera, eat your picnic with both hands, lay back on the deck and sunbathe...

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by MYSSAK » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:33 pm

My understanding is that Pace Tour S has identical hull as Pace Tour. Only difference is that deck is lower. I have Pace Tour since spring 2013 and I have also been in Pace Tour S once. I would say it is pretty stable kayak, I am happy to take photos with my dslr (without waterproof case) in normal conditions. I have been often asked “is it as stable as....” honest answer is no. Every kayak feels different, Pace is stable kayak but I wouldn’t say if it’s more or less stable than rest of my seakayaks, it’s similar but different at the same time.
If you don’t mind trying full size version I would be happy to let you try mine.

Michal

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:56 pm

That’s a kind offer, thank you, where are you located?

If the hull is the same chances are they are indeed really similar to paddle. I agree stability is subjective and also really psychological I find!

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by MYSSAK » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:17 pm

I am based in London.
Often I go paddling south or west, usually weekends.

Michal

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:24 pm

You are far south of me unfortunately, thank you for the offer though.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by MYSSAK » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:06 pm

Grian wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:24 pm
You are far south of me unfortunately, thank you for the offer though.
I know someone with Pace Tour S in Scotland if that’s better...

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Dyllon » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:58 pm

I have a Pace Tour S and a Romany. The Tour S certainly a lot quicker than a Romany (what isn't?) and is stable enough for me. However, I do tend to paddle it loaded as that is really what it is designed for. When loaded it is very solid. The few times I have paddled it unloaded, i have not really noted any issues with stability.

It should be noted that the hull of the Tour S is identical to that of the full size Pace Tour. As is common, the difference is that about 25 mm has been taken out of the hull/deck at the joint. Therefore, the handling of the two boats will be effectively identical, except for a bit more windage in the larger boat. I chose the S just because the capacity of the full size one is huge and I fitted into the smaller one. And it has more volume than most expedition boats.

I don't think you can reasonably replace a Romany with a Tour S. They have very different design briefs and are complimentary in function. However, if you want to paddle distances and maybe avoid rock-hopping, etc. then the Tour S might be ideal. Having a rudder is a revelation when you need to get somewhere and there is any sort of cross-wind.

You are welcome to try mine, located in Skye.

R.

PS - The Tour S is a lot more stable than an Xplore S!

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:02 am

Thank you both for information and kind offer to try your boats. I've found there is a dealer not too far away so a test ride should be possible.

Great to have the comparison to Romany and xplore-s stability, this is my main concern. I wonder is it as comforting as the Romany in a following sea?

You have a dream team with both those boats Dyllon! I can only justify one so will think carefully before making any changes.

Since I primarily enjoy relaxed exploring I could live without the rock-hopping and surfing capabilities of the Romany. While I don't plan to break speed records I love the sensation of easy glide it really is one of the main delights of kayaking for me, and I'd like to keep pace with stronger companions using less effort (and the small paddles that I find a million times more comfortable over any distance). It might seem perverse to potter in a boat designed for warp speed but I'd enjoy stopping to look at things and take photos more if I knew I could make up distance quickly.

Am so curious about the rudder, must take some getting used to? No accidental handbrake turns?!

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by MYSSAK » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:18 am

I really enjoy paddling Pace in following sea, it is much easier to catch and link waves in Pace Tour than it is in traditional seakayaks.
Paddling kayaks like Pace Tour isn’t just about the speed, it interacts with water really well and there is lots of potential to have fun in conditions which I would consider dull or less exciting in kayak like Romany.
If speed is not important to you there is Pace Action to consider. It is slower than Pace Tour but it offers same fun in downwind conditions while it is great boat to use to explore coast too.
I think it is best allround seakayak on the market by far. I have number of different seakayaks, you might say one for each occasion, but if I’d have to choose only one to keep it would be Pace Action.

Michal

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by seakayakingsweden » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:26 pm

I paddled the Pace 17 S on expedition for part of this summer and really grew to love this boat, it moves so easily and is more forgiving than the X-plore S I've spent the past 5 years paddling. Initially the deck in front of the cockpit felt low for my legs but this was Ok after about a week. I found its good in all expect very steep waves in strong winds when I found the rudder in the air meant it tended to turn sideways. I guess with experience I'd learn to handle it. I now view this as my go to boat for loaded paddling but still love the Explore S for rock hopping etc.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:02 am

Thanks, it sounds pretty ideal other than turning sideways. Definitely going to organise a shot in a demo boat.

In the meantime am experimenting with paddle size to see if that helps speed me up. From one extreme to the other I tried Werner Corryvreckans, so much more power but too big, will persevere with a set of Camanos for the time being. I guess I may sell my Epic touring blades.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by rockhopper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:27 am

See if you can try a set of VE paddles.....

Rog.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:42 pm

rockhopper wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:27 am
See if you can try a set of VE paddles.....

Rog.
Which in particular - and would you rate them above others for any reason in particular? Have found Epic relaxed touring carbon blades very comfortable but not terribly powerful. Shuna high angle caused shoulder pain... Time will tell with the Camanos.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by rockhopper » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:08 pm

I like the Explorers with the glass shaft (gives slightly more flex when paddling). My paddling is mostly high angle so a different one may suit you better but it is possibly down to the blade size. If you ring the chap that makes them he is very helpful.
I used various paddles but mainly used Werner Players (which tend to be WW paddles but they suited my style) before getting the VE's and would not change from them now.

Rog.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:38 pm

This may sound unappealing to anyone who just paddles for a bit of recreation, but if you are struggling to get speed and power to keep up with others I cannot recommend enough finding a group of racing paddlers that will let you join their sessions regularly and give you some coaching as you go.
For years I had been using bigger blades assuming I must be strong enough for them, actually I got a lot more gain by improving my technique. I haven't reverted to smaller blades on 'flat' paddles yet because I now use wings in training, but I do use the smallest wing blades since my coach explained out that the only reason I should consider the next size (which he uses) is if I am going to pull as hard as he does (he does a lot of gym work, there is no way I can pull as hard as him!).

Very few people will use a full high angle race stroke all the time for touring, but the principles can be applied to any shaft angle, and it can sometimes be useful to alternate between styles on a long trip.

Although as paddlers we were told to rotate from early on, I would say that very few non-racing coaches actually seem to emphasise this enough or actually get people rotating and using their core anywhere near as much as they could. I certainly felt I had always rotated, until I learned how to and realised that for 25 years I really hadn't been rotating much at all! If you are getting shoulder pain due to the amount of movement of your arms at the shoulders you will probably see it reduce massively once you learn to reduce that movement and pull from lower down instead.

I train with a group of wild water racers in Glasgow, but there are other groups of WWR, marathon and even surf ski paddlers dotted around Scotland if you look hard enough - they are always very sociable and looking for new people to paddle with. If you are in a sea kayak you won't be able to keep up at full pace on longer sessions but it is more suitable than a plastic river boat so most would probably accommodate you; but aim to join in on shorter sessions anyway, like sprints and intervals, you will finish each effort close behind the rest and can get feedback/coaching and be part of the group. Most groups will have mixed abilities or speeds anyways, our group usually staggers the starts for sprint sessions to try and get everyone to finish at a similar time.

Just don't get too carried away with training that you forget to go touring!
Oh yes, training never gets easier, you just learn to push harder so it always feels the same but you go quicker, when you translate that back to touring, it will feel easier, just not during training!

Anyway, back to point, if you can find a suitable group to work on technique, stick with the smaller blades, you will probably find you can get more out of them and may grow to like ones you haven't been getting on with (or not).

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:43 pm

Thanks Jim, I hadn't thought about really pushing myself so that dawdling feels effortless, tsk! There must be off-water ways I can work on that as well, an equivalent to a rowing machine perhaps? Would be a good activity for these dark nights.

I have an unpredictable and nomadic itinerary that means attending regular activities is difficult, if things settle a bit next year I'll look for such a group locally. I'm conscious of trying to work from my core and try to implement what I've picked up but definitely need guidance. To that end I'm booking on Phil Keetley's forward paddling class taking place in January and will follow up with further coaching.

I'm not sure if technique will solve the shoulder pain occurring with a larger/higher angle blade as that can also arise in other activities - I asked advice here before and had some useful input then was delighted when simply changing paddles solved it! Weirdly of all things wearing a waxed jacked predictably fires up this particular sore spot and has done since childhood when that was my 'school coat'! Very odd.

Of course better technique with a smaller blade would ideally mean no need for a change, but I will still be weaker than my partner and paddling a boat that needs 13.5% more effort (thanks Aled for such precision!) and his paddles will still be a shovel-like 10cm2 larger unless I hide them! Not that he complains about idling when we are out together, even for paddling by myself I'd welcome a bit more return-on-effort. Clearly a faster boat or bigger blade shouldn't be used to entirely compensate for lack of progress with fitness and technique though!

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Jim » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:29 pm

There are kayak ergos (ergometer) but they are quite expensive and take up a lot of space in use, although the kayak pro one appears to fold up well for storage. I think they would be quite boring to use so probably difficult to keep up unless you are following a specific training regime, even then it is probably more satisfying if you spend on a model with a computer function for trip distance or something.

I got my Taran in 2011, I suspect it gave me more than 13.5% reduction in effort over my heavily repaired sea king! I don't know how different the Pace 17 is, but I have certainly never looked back since switching to a fast sea kayak. It took me from having to paddle hard to keep up, to having to paddle more slowly to keep back, until the others started rigging their boats with sails :)
Even so, when I started with the WWR group a couple of years ago I was able to do the same times in my 18' 19.5kg Taran as in my 14.5' 12ish kg WWR boat, assuming that is still the case I know roughly how much I have improved in the WWR boat over that time because I have seen my position in the group change, what's more the group is continuously improving. Last year I took 20 minutes off my time around Kerrera, unfortunately injury prevented me from doing it this year.

Definitely worth considering all aspects - easier boat, better technique and match the paddle to the technique.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Chris Bolton » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:49 pm

paddling a boat that needs 13.5% more effort (thanks Aled for such precision!)
I'm assuming that's from the "Sea kayak speed" thread. Bear in mind that Aled's figures there were for 'fast-ish paddling', and he notes that different boats do better at lower speeds. That's because the two main sources of drag are the hull shape, which affects the amount of energy lost in making bow and stern waves, and hull wetted surface area, which has an effect like skin friction. The point is that wave making drag gets disproportionately bigger as you go faster, while surface drag doesn't increase so much. So it's quite possible to have a boat that takes less effort when pushed hard, but more effort at gentle cruising speed.

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Re: Tiderace Tour 17-S experiences

Post by Grian » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:58 pm

Thanks Chris, he did highlight that 13.5% was at fast pace. Having paddled my partners xplore it is clearly less effort than my own boat at a slow speed too but I wouldn’t know by how much, the difference is discernible though.

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