River white water training for sea kayaking?

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River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by on the rocks » Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:36 pm

I guess that at this time of year river and white water kayaking may be good training and practice for sea kayaking? Those plastic flat bottomed short tubs we have at club rolling practice and what folk use on the rivers nowadays seem a world away from sea kayaks or even the fibreglass slalom kayaks I remember from 40 years ago. I guess they handle very differently particularly using edges? Are the skills easily transferable? Are some creek type boats more akin to sea kayaks than others? Am I over thinking this and should just get stuck in?

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:13 pm

Can't think of a better training for sea kayaking than paddling in a white water river. Although I wanted to become a seakayaker I intentionally dabbled in WW for several years before taking to the sea.
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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by pathbrae » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:42 pm

I know several sea paddlers who love taking a P&H Hammer down rivers. Basically, as a rough guide, anything a good open canoe paddler can get down, you'll get a Hammer down.
So much sea - so little time to see it.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:05 am

I'm a big fan of crossover between disciplines. Even if a particular skill has no direct relevance to a different discipline it may improve boat balance or feel and always adds something to the toolbox which might useful when you have to invent something on the spot to deal with something unexpected.
These days I mostly paddle slalom and wild water racing boats (K1 and C1) but still get out in my sea kayak, my 16' canoe, my 9' WW canoe, and, well I think the reality is that I don't have time to play polo any more so that boat might not be getting wet again in the foreseeable future. I hardly ever use my plastic river running kayaks any more - just seem too heavy and slow!

If you want a boat in some way similar to a sea kayak, have a look for touring/crossover kayaks, usually about 14' long with a skeg and sometimes a hatch. Some of these are suitable for grade 2 or maybe 3 rivers and there are people who use them for that.
If you are really committed a WWR kayak could be good - steering is similar to most sea kayaks without rudders, they are a bit more twitchy so you will learn balance and hopefully good basic paddle technique - the only trouble is there are not that many around these days and not that many groups of people to paddle with (if you happen to be near a group though I would highly recommend it).

But if you just want something alternative to develop different skills, stop thinking too hard and just get something and get out there. Ideally you will get out with a club, so just choose a type of boat similar to what others are using - these days that is likely to be a creek boat however easy or difficult the river, but you may find a club where people use river running playboats instead, especially now that several manufacturers are releasing new boats in this vein.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Robert Craig » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:56 am

Couldn't agree more with what the previous posters have said. Using the same skills in different environments makes the skills and their variation automatic.

Unlike tennis and badminton, which clash - but that's for another forum.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Aled » Wed Nov 14, 2018 10:05 am

Also, consider kayak surfing (in any kayak - sea, surf, WW, slalom, SOT etc) the skills are relevant

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:44 am

I agree with what's been said, but in addition, a big volume river (which means in flood in the UK) can be paddled in an ordinary sea kayak. The Grand Canyon has been paddled in sea kayaks. I've paddled the Sella marathon descent course in a sea kayak (illegally, as we found out afterwards, so I don't recommend that!). Deep slow mature rivers, like the Welsh Dee from Bangor to Chester, will be fine at any level. I'd argue that boats like the Hammer can be taken down things that would be beyond a traditional open canoe, because you don't have to worry about swamping. As Jim says, paddling a wild water racer will help your balance in a sea kayak; there's a plastic version called a Wavehopper.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by TheEcho » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:52 pm

Capsizing is more common on whitewater trips than sea trips, so it is good practice for learning to roll in real situations. Although the boats don’t roll quite the same way, the skills will transfer, and most of what you need to learn is the head game of not pulling your deck when you are unexpectedly underwater and it feels like a washing machine and you can see rocks heading straight for you.

WW kayaks are typically edged to turn the opposite way from sea boats. When I started learning WW I kept forgetting this and edging the wrong way, leading to a speedy capsize in moving water. My subconscious seems to have adapted now. I have been WW kayaking for about a year or two. I am learning to keep my hips loose and employ a strong forward stroke to keep me in balance, which works nicely in rough seas too.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Northern Blue » Thu Nov 15, 2018 8:42 am

I started sea kayaking regularly a couple of years ago, falling back on my experience of wave ski surfing back in the early nineties and never once taking an unplanned sea kayak capsize or swim, despite getting out in some pretty rough conditions, including surfing, Kylerhea tide races and a gentle run through the Falls of Lora.
In all that time, I never learned to roll either the wave ski or the sea kayak and decided to rectify that this winter, booking on to a winter programme of pool rolling classes with my local club.

To that end, I bought a Pyrhana Burn 3 to use in the pool and had a Pawlata roll working by the end of the first session and now wanting to make full use of the Burn, my intention is to join the white water paddlers and ‘crossover’ coaches and next year start working towards the new Personal Performance Awards in both sea kayaking and white water disciplines.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by nickcrowhurst » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:11 pm

Learning to muddle my way down middle-grade white water was the best move I ever made to improve my rock-hopping and tidal race skills in a sea kayak. Indeed, one rocky tidal race I used on the biggest tide of the year was "grade 4 white water overlain with a channel swell every few seconds" according to my internationally respected coach, Andy Stamp.
Breaking out behind a rock in the middle of a river rapid and breaking back in is a skill that is transferable between river and sea, but watch out for the swell at sea. Large rocks don't usually appear and disappear every few seconds in rivers, and the sensation of going up and down in a lift can be disconcerting.
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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by on the rocks » Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:53 pm

Thanks everybody, lots of good stuff here, I’ll get down the club river session on Sunday and borrow a boat. Hopefully getting too used to edging the wrong way won’t Impair my sea kayaking. But improved balance and quicker reaction/support would be useful, also more rolling in real situations, and hopefully having fun too. A major worry is getting sucked in (hopefully not literally) into something that’s going to end up costing even more money and time. I’m used to fairly big swell but I understand that river rocks are harder

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:21 pm

I wouldn't worry about direction of edging.

A sea kayak (unless it has a rudder) really needs to be edged to turn otherwise it is very very slow to turn and takes a lot of effort.
A short river kayak - creek or play or general purpose - will turn quite well if you hold it flat and sweep the paddle effectively. But they will turn much more quickly if you edge them at the same time. It doesn't matter much to the speed of the turn which way you edge, simply having the boat on edge helps it turn more quickly. On whitewater you are turning whilst river forces are already acting on the boat, edging to the inside of the turn (dropping the inside edge) tends to make the boat feel more stable during the turn and prevents the flow getting on top of the rear deck and trying to flip the boat over, so it is what most recreational paddlers do.
Actually most (if not all) boats will naturally turn away from the edge that you lower, so the natural way for it to turn (if not initiating with a sweep stroke) would be using outside edge, the same as sea kayakers (and wildwater racers) do. It is in fact possible to do this whilst paddling on white water but you need to properly locked into your boat with good positive control of the edges and able to resist the flipping action when it comes. If you observe slalom paddlers, you will actually find that in most recent boat designs they keep the boat fairly flat in the upstream gates (where they perform a tight turn around the inside pole), but if not flat they will more likely use outside edge in the turn for a couple of reasons - firstly it allows them to slice the stern under the water and make the turn even faster, and also it will cause it to catch in the upstream flow of the eddy and be pushed upstream through the gateline so they don't actually have to paddle upstream, simply perform a turning motion. This requires very good edge control, but is actually quite easy to learn, any playboater/freestyle kayaker will be able to show you how to do it too, in fact I have been messing about doing it in playboats on rivers for years - it is quite satisfying to find a well defined eddyline and as you break out drop the outside edge, slice the stern under and stand the boat up on it's end in the eddy!

So don't worry about whether the edging you do on the river is in the opposite direction than you will in your sea kayak, river edging is short term dynamic and can be either way (if you have the slill not to capsize when edging to the outside) but it will help you build confidence in using your edge which you will carry across to the sea kayak. When in your sea kayak you need to hold the edge on for quite a while to turn, if you find you instinctively have edged the wrong way, you will soon notice and have plenty of time to change to the other edge and get the turn direction you need!

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by on the rocks » Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm

Thanks Jim

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by ron-t » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm

Hi

Now I know that I may well be out on a limb here, but I really don`t get this idea that you should edge / lean outwards to turn a sea kayak.

It is totally the opposite of intuitive - people running, animals running, cyclists, motor bikers - none of them lean outwards to turn, they all lean inwards.

As another former white water paddler, I never - never - edge or lean outwards to turn my sea kayak, I always edge / lean inwards into the curve.

I don`t know where it has come from, is it the fault of manufacturers who produce these floating armchairs with huge built in skegs so that lesser skilled paddlers can get out on the sea.

The cynic in me wonders if it is the fault of coaches - they can take novices on courses and teach them how to edge and lean outwards. Then when the same paddlers want to learn about playing in tideraces or moving water, then the coaches can provide another course in how to lean the other way.

And sorry Jim, I really don`t agree that you have plenty of time to change from one direction of edge to the other, if you break in or out of a current whilst edging or leaning outwards, you won`t have time to change, because you will be upside down.

Now of course different sea kayaks behave and respond differently to edging and leaning into the turn, some do it nicely, some don`t - but if you have a sea kayak that responds nicely to edging and leaning inwards, then you have a boat that is so much more fun to paddle than one that doesn`t.

You also have a situation where your white water skills are immediately transferrable to sea kayaking, and the other way round as well.

If you don`t believe all this, then I suggest you have a shot of an Anas Acuta or one of the other types of greenland style sea kayaks, they are probably the sea kayaks that behave most like a river boat in the way they respond and turn.

Coming back to the original question about whether white water paddling would be good for your sea kayaking skillset, then yes I totally agree with what others have already said, go for it.

Bear in mind that there is huge divergence in white water boat design - playboats, slalom boats, creeking boats - all quite different, and designed for a very specific part of the white water spectrum.

If your intention is to use white water paddling as a boost for your sea kayaking skillset, then I think I would be looking at some of the old school river running playboats as being the most useful - for example, look at -

Necky Jive or Bliss - not the Gliss, super responsive, but it was a bit too play orientated, and a rather unforgiving boat for general river running.

Prijon Hurricane or Fly.

Dagger Infrared or RPM.

There are others, but I am not so familiar with them, so the fact I haven`t listed them is no reflection on their suitability or otherwise.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by PlymouthDamo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:47 pm

ron-t wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Now I know that I may well be out on a limb here, but I really don`t get this idea that you should edge / lean outwards to turn a sea kayak.
When people discuss the topic of leaning-away edging turns on sea kayaks, they're not talking about dynamic turns like breaking in/out of an eddy. They're talking about course-correction, for which edging the right way for your boat is a basic skill, allowing you to stay on track whilst otherwise paddling normally. It's not the same for all sea kayaks - I've got two West Greenland boats which go in opposite directions on the edge. (These two boats have carbon copy hulls, except one has its deck lowered by 6cm.)

For breaking in/out of a strong eddy, most sea kayakers will lean into the turn with their paddle supporting them or ready to. I say 'most' as I've spent a fun evening trying to Bow Rudder in and out of a strong eddy - leaning away. I was only doing it for a laugh and got about one wobbly success for every 5 instant capsizes.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by ron-t » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:09 pm

Hi

Thank you for your feedback - having had very little sea kayak coaching, I have merely been transferring my skillset from river paddling to sea kayaking, and I have lived quite happily edging / leaning into the curve whether I am doing something dynamic, or a bit of course correction.

I did try edging outwards as a technique, but it always seemed to be so counter-intuitive and not particularily effective that I couldn`t see the point in struggling with it.

Good luck with your bow rudders - I tried to get my head round them a long time ago when I dabbled with slalom - it took me three years to get out of div 5, so I knew that slalom and me didn`t have a future together, and I said goodbye to both slalom and bow rudders.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by PlymouthDamo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:10 pm

Then it sounds like your boat turns in the direction you're edging towards, the same as my low-decked boat. This would make sense if you're talking about your Anas Acuta as my Greenland boats are Shrikes, for which Nick pinched the dimensions from the same historical boat that the Anas Acuta is based on. I've paddled Nick's early Anas Acuta, but my only enduring memory of it was sheer discomfort as the deck was way too low for me. So perhaps low-decked Greenland boats interact with the water in such a way as to turn on edge the opposite way to the majority of sea kayaks?

(And bow-ruddering through strong eddy lines whilst leaning away from the turn is not something I'll be making a habit of. It's a crowd-pleaser for all the wrong reasons.)

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by jmmoxon » Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:18 pm

Does depend what boat you have, as short waterlines will turn whichever way you put most power into stroke:


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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:22 am

ron-t wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Hi

Now I know that I may well be out on a limb here, but I really don`t get this idea that you should edge / lean outwards to turn a sea kayak.

It is totally the opposite of intuitive - people running, animals running, cyclists, motor bikers - none of them lean outwards to turn, they all lean inwards.
My entire point was not to get hung up about which way to edge, both ways work.

You are mixing up the action necessary to initiate a turn, with the action necessary to remain stable in a turn, however you are quite correct that any time you need to turn quickly or with extra stability - like using tide races like coastal rivers it does make more sense to edge into the turn for stability and initiate with a sweep. In these kinds of turns you will generally be stalling your forward speed and slowing significantly in the turn.
Where outside edge is useful is for long distance turns maintaining full speed, such as adding a small carving turn to counteract the effect of wind or tide trying to turn you off your intended course, which is common for traditional touring but maybe less so if you mainly go rockhopping. If you need this kind of turn over several miles, it is well worth learning to do it using outside edge whilst still paddling straight ahead instead of doing a series of short violent inside edge turns where you lose speed in each one.

SInce people's instinct is to edge into a turn for stability, it does not matter if you do that initially when an outside edge turn would have been more appropriate - you do have plenty of time to change to outside edge. You would be right that the other way you don't have much time to correct before capsizing, but it is extremely unlikely anyone would end up instinctively edging out of a sharp turn first.

As far as trying a greenland style boat, I paddled a sea king for around 10 years without a skeg and in all sorts of conditions (OK, usually rough conditions), most of the time it responded quite well to outside edge, sometimes in quartering seas it was impossible to keep it carving against the wind/wave effects and I had to paddle in large zig-zags, but often this enabled me to go faster through the water so I still covered the ground towards my destination as quickly as my friends in skegged boats who could hold them straight. Probably the only times I've edged into a turn in it would be playing in the grey dogs. The Anas acuta I used to borrow 20 odd years ago also turned away from the edge, and if I forget i have a rudder, my Taran will also turn away from the edge.

Both of my sea kayaks, my WWR kayak, my WWR C1, both my slalom kayaks. my slalom C1, all 3 of the OC1s I've had and my polo boat all definitely turn naturally away from the edge.
I don't think I ever really tested this in any of my playboats, but I often used to edge outside so I could sink the tail and lift the bow in a turn. My spud and my burn I really don't know about and it is impossible to test in my 16' canoe paddling solo because to drop the outside edge I would need to be too far across the boat to reach the water with the paddle.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by jmmoxon » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:25 am

Best test to find out what actually happens is get someone to push you straight out from the bank then try edging the boat - otherwise it's the paddle doing all the work...

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Franky » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am

ron-t wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Hi

Now I know that I may well be out on a limb here, but I really don`t get this idea that you should edge / lean outwards to turn a sea kayak.

It is totally the opposite of intuitive - people running, animals running, cyclists, motor bikers - none of them lean outwards to turn, they all lean inwards.
But they are not sitting in displacement hull boats. Intuition is not always a reliable guide to how things work.

I'm not a physicist but I've thought about this, and my hypothesis is that when you lower one side of a displacement hull boat, that side presents a greater surface area to the oncoming water. The oncoming water is displaced sideways (hence the word "displacement"- the hull displaces the water coming towards it) - and the side deeper in the water displaces more water sideways. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and so the boat turns away from the side displacing most water - the side sitting deeper in the water, i.e. the opposite side to the one with the lifted knee.

The reason that runners, cyclists and motorcyclists lean inwards on turns is not primarily to do with controlling the turn, but to keep their balance to counteract centrifugal force. A motorcyclist who leans sideways without moving the handlebars will not turn, he will fall over.

To verify this, consider that you lean into a curve when taking a corner fast in a car. This has no effect on the turn. You are just keeping your balance.

But as someone wrote, perhaps the issue is that lifting a knee to turn a sea kayak is not done in the same circumstances as lifting a knee to control a white water boat. My own experience is that you lift a knee in WW to counteract the effect of the oncoming water trying to roll you over like a log. In white water, you don't primarily use edge to steer - the boats are so manoeuvrable that a twitch of the paddle is enough to initiate a turn.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by on the rocks » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:39 am

I'm a relative beginner but my understanding is that edging is putting the kayak on edge while keeping paddler's centre of gravity firmly above the centre line, this changes the profile of the hull, much like an aircraft's wing creating "lift" to the right or left depending on the side edged

leaning is putting the paddler's centre of gravity to one side of the centre line, this may be to counteract force of moving water under the kayak (or to anticipate a change in force when moving in/out of flow/eddy, in which case support from the paddle flat on the water keeps one the right way up until the transition), and/or the centrifical force during a tight turn.

One of the challenges for us developing sea kayakers is to build strong edging skills to make quick turns without over edging and capsizing, this involves building technique, confidence, tuning in to feedback from the boat and flexibility. When it suddenly gets windier and rougher the lack of a confident and solid edge can make it harder to turn (eg into a strong wind) due to worries of a capsize. practicing edging in calm conditions seems different to the same in moderate to rough conditions where it is more important.

From the above very helpful posts it seems that WW practice is great for handling and breaking in and out of moving water (tide races) but may not be so good for building sea kayak edging skills, due to the differences in hull profile.. More winter trips to the coast with onshore winds near a sandy beach would seem to be best for this?

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:58 am

Franky wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am
ron-t wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:20 pm
Hi

Now I know that I may well be out on a limb here, but I really don`t get this idea that you should edge / lean outwards to turn a sea kayak.

It is totally the opposite of intuitive - people running, animals running, cyclists, motor bikers - none of them lean outwards to turn, they all lean inwards.
But they are not sitting in displacement hull boats. Intuition is not always a reliable guide to how things work.

I'm not a physicist but I've thought about this, and my hypothesis is that when you lower one side of a displacement hull boat, that side presents a greater surface area to the oncoming water. The oncoming water is displaced sideways (hence the word "displacement"- the hull displaces the water coming towards it) - and the side deeper in the water displaces more water sideways. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, and so the boat turns away from the side displacing most water - the side sitting deeper in the water, i.e. the opposite side to the one with the lifted knee.
I don't think it is quite that clear cut, but you are right that it is the change in underwater shape, but it is where the centre of pressure of the flow acting on it ends up in relationship to the pivot point that determines the direction of the carve.

The position of the centre of pressure will depend on the form of the hull - symmetric, swede or fish, and on the vector resultant direction of the flow, whilst the pivot point will depend on the rocker profile, the heeled rocker profile and the trim. I would suggest it is probably possible to reverse the natural turn effect of some boats by adjusting the trim.

Considering the boats I know turn away from the edge, they are either swede form or symmetric. The only boat I recall definitely turning towards the edge was an old Gyramax C1, and the reason I noted it is because I use outside edge carving in C1 to minimise the amount of correction strokes - consequently I simply couldn't get on with the Gyramax! I honestly couldn't say what hull form it has, it was quite soft so the pivot point may have moved at some point!

As an aside (this entire discussion is an aside from the original question); the term 'displacement hull' is about classification of bodies in fluids, in general terms you have statically supported bodies ('stats'), dynamically supported bodies ('dynes') and hybrids that are both statically and dynamically supported ('dynostats'). For boats stats are commonly called 'displacement' because they are supported only by buoyancy, dynes are called 'planing' when they are supported only by dynamic lift, and dynostats are called 'semi-planing' when they use a mixture of dynamic lift and buoyancy. Sea kayaks are examples of displacement boats, a surf board is the best example of a fully planing craft although the hydroplanes used in racing and speed records and any craft that rises completely out of the water on hydrofoils are also examples. Lower speed boats which rise partially onto the plane like many sailing dinghies are semi-planing. I suspect that most surf and freestyle kayaks are semi-planing, but if moving fast enough they might be able to become fully planing. There may be some sea kayaks particularly rock hopping types which have semi-planing hulls.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:00 am

on the rocks wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:39 am
From the above very helpful posts it seems that WW practice is great for handling and breaking in and out of moving water (tide races) but may not be so good for building sea kayak edging skills, due to the differences in hull profile.. More winter trips to the coast with onshore winds near a sandy beach would seem to be best for this?
It is useful to build confidence edging whichever way you do it, once you are comfortable holding a lot of edge in a WW boat, you will easily be able to transfer that to holding less edge in the opposite direction in a sea kayak. I have never seen a WW paddler struggle to master sea kayaking!

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:04 am

I haven't thought about it before, but if I'm paddling on tidal flows with jets and eddies, I lean my sea kayak as I would on a river, inside edge down. This is automatic, because I'll be doing a bow rudder on the inside of the turn. In that situation, the water is turning the boat and I just need to control it. If, on the other hand, I'm on flat water, even if it's surging up and down, such as rockhopping, I'll put the outside edge down - again, that's automatic as I'll be doing a sweep stroke on the outside; there's no differential flow to turn the boat and I need to push it round the turn. Controlling direction down wind and down wave I'll use outside leans, as I will when turning to manoeuvrer with the group, etc. One benefit of outside edge and sweep is that if you overdo the edge, or a wave catches you, your paddle is in the right place to brace.

As Jim will no doubt confirm, the trickiest outside edge is in WWR C1, when you're edging to counteract the effect of paddling on one side. So if you're paddling on the right, you have to edge left, all the time (otherwise you have to use J strokes, which slows the boat). But if you edge too far, your paddle's on the wrong side to brace...

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by TheEcho » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:54 pm

Jim wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:00 am
I have never seen a WW paddler struggle to master sea kayaking!
I have, but for a different reason. A guy who had been WW paddling for years or possibly decades at a decent level had got himself an unshakeable habit of low bracing when he felt unstable, and when trying out sea kayaking really struggled to make decent forward progress on choppy water.

I think modern WW coaching encourages a more dynamic style so perhaps it won’t happen with newer WW paddlers.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Jim » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:33 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:04 am
As Jim will no doubt confirm, the trickiest outside edge is in WWR C1, when you're edging to counteract the effect of paddling on one side. So if you're paddling on the right, you have to edge left, all the time (otherwise you have to use J strokes, which slows the boat). But if you edge too far, your paddle's on the wrong side to brace...
I need to spend more time in my WWR C1, it certainly takes a lot of concentration edging continuously on the offside (outside and opposite to the paddle) in rapids, it is hard enough on the flat! Even harder when you have to edge hard to make the boat turn towards the paddling side - I have to admit to using a lot of bow draws and stern pries for that at the moment!

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Robert Craig » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:48 pm

I think were're discussing a long slow turn, using a sweep stroke, and maintaining speed through the turn. My take is that under these circumstances:

1) Edging the boat either way helps a lot, though at the expense ob balance.
2) Some boats turn one way when edged, other the other way. (Mine doesn't turn at all). But it's a small effect.
3) Edging towards the sweep stroke increases the distance from the boat the paddle blade, and so increases the power of the sweep. This is a big effect.

Most of the time, 3) is the most significant factor.


Going back to the OP, I recon paddling white water is a fast way of leaning many sea kayaking skills. You're pushed towards the edge of your confidence zone regularly, and the consequences aren't usually serious. Bit like top-roping rather than leading.

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Ken_T » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:24 pm

Hi, On flat water most boats turn more efficiently on an outside edge, partly because the boat does it natrually, but also partly because you tend to paddle further from the low edge than the high edge. In dynamic water stability becomes more important so you show the relative flow the hull of your boat, this will determine which edge to use. As an example imagine you are on a wave running at 45 degrees to the wave direction, if you want to turn to be more in line with the wave direction you will do an outside edge turn to lean on the wave. If you want to turn across the wave you will do an inside edge turn to lean onto the wave. This is also true if you surf a ww boat or a surf kayak. Generally ww boats turn so easily that using the edge toassist the tirn is unnecerssary, so the edge is used almost entirely for stability. For a sea kayak it is much more directionally stable so edging is used to improve the efficieny of the turn as well as for stability. Foar all kayaking (& canoeing) you need to develop inside & outside edge turns to get the best out of the boat.
Ken

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Re: River white water training for sea kayaking?

Post by Robert Craig » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:33 pm

Ken_T wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:24 pm
Hi, On flat water most boats turn more efficiently on an outside edge, ..... , but also partly because you tend to paddle further from the low edge than the high edge ....
My point exactly!

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