British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

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British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by gethroberts » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:32 pm

The New Streamlined Journey to Becoming a British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

https://seakayakingwales.com/2017/11/

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Mark R » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:22 pm

'It promises to ... simplify'

You couldn't make this stuff up.
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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by gethroberts » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:27 pm

Hi Mark,

Under the new system, assuming you are a 5* leader, you may be endorsed as an Advanced Sea Kayak Coach after just 5 days on courses.

Under the old system a 5* leader would have to do:
6 days for UKCC Level 1 including FSRT and 2* in canoe/kayak,
followed by 5 days of UKCC Level 2,
followed by 3 days of moderate water endorsement,
followed by 3 days of advanced water endorsement
to become an Advanced Water Endorsed UKCC Level 2 Coach, which is pretty much the same as the new Advanced Water Coach. You would also have to have done the standard cumbersome work books and minimum number of coaching days at each level.

Now 6+5+3+3 = 17 days sounds a tad less achievable and far more expensive than 5.

You seem to be suggesting that the post-2018 system is no better or worse than the pre-2018 system? Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

Cheers,

Geth

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by pathbrae » Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:47 pm

Ahhh Advanced Sea Kayak Leaders, what would we do without them?
So much sea - so little time to see it.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by MYSSAK » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:05 am

gethroberts wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:27 pm
Hi Mark,

Under the new system, assuming you are a 5* leader, you may be endorsed as an Advanced Sea Kayak Leader after just 5 days on courses.
I'm confused now. I thought Advance Seakayak Leader is just a new name for 5 star.

Michal

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by robhorton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:16 am

MYSSAK wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:05 am
gethroberts wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:27 pm
Hi Mark,

Under the new system, assuming you are a 5* leader, you may be endorsed as an Advanced Sea Kayak Leader after just 5 days on courses.
I'm confused now. I thought Advance Seakayak Leader is just a new name for 5 star.

Michal
It is - I think he meant to say Advanced Sea Kayak *Coach*.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Mark R » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:03 pm

I'm not part of the system. I just took a look, out of curiosity, and quickly got confused.

If this is the 'streamlined and simplified' version, I dread to imagine what the current scheme looks like.
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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by UKRGB Moderator » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:35 pm

It is - I think he meant to say Advanced Sea Kayak *Coach*.
He did - original post corrected by Mod

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by MikeB » Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:42 pm

pathbrae wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:47 pm
Ahhh Advanced Sea Kayak Leaders, what would we do without them?
Quite! Although the skills (and validation of same) are useful. As indeed is having them updated now and again. Although as a certain informal kayaking group has shown, it's quite possible to do that without having a governance organisation in the background.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by gethroberts » Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:38 pm

Mark R wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:03 pm
I'm not part of the system. I just took a look, out of curiosity, and quickly got confused.

If this is the 'streamlined and simplified' version, I dread to imagine what the current scheme looks like.
Hi Mark, yes the pre-2018 current system was very complicated and not particularly good for experienced discipline specific paddlers. It poorly acknowledged previous paddling or coaching/teaching experience. Nevertheless, it worked reasonably well in other areas of paddlesport.

Cheers, Geth

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by robhorton » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:15 pm

I think this is a good move - I lead club stuff and would be interested in going down the coaching route but have little/no interest (well, if time were no object...) in running flat water sessions for beginners.

I would like to see BC standardise all the coach qualifications and insist coaches only use the new designations in marketing. It's a bit confusing when people claim to be a "level 3 coach" when that was actually under the old scheme so roughly UKCC L2 + MWE.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by rockhopper » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:34 am

I'm with Mark on this one.
The whole system leaves me completely confused......could anyone simplify it with a flow chart?

Rog.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by andynormancx » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:00 am

BC provide a flow chart for becoming what used to be a level 2 coach:

Image

So they really have simplified things if want you want to be is the equivalent of a level 2 coach in the old system.

The part if the new system that is less clear in the new system is the naming. Before it was very obvious that Level 2 meant more qualified than Level 1. Now with the new system people need to know that Instructor means less qualified than Coach.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Allan Olesen » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:01 am

The process in the article seems pretty simple and straight forward to me - with one graving exception:
It does not describe what you are certified to do when you have reached a certain coach level.

If, for example, a Sea Kayak Leader becomes a "Sea Kayak Coach (moderate water)", which level of sea kayak paddlers can he train, and which level of sea kayak paddlers can he assess?

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by rockhopper » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:31 pm

And.... what is the difference between a Leader, a Coach and an Instructor. The flow chart I was really after was to define the whole system rather than one just one path.

I'm worried that I'm just being a bit thick but I don't want to be that kid at the back of the class that thinks he is the only one who is struggling!


Rog

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by andynormancx » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:43 pm

I don't have a flow chart I'm afraid, but as I understand it:

Instructor - first level coach (all old Level 1 coaches will now be called Instructors)
Coach - second level coach (all old Level 2 coaches will now be called Coaches)
Leader - not a coaching qualification, designed to make it easier for experienced people (who aren't interested in coaching) to lead club trips within the BC remit

In the new scheme you don't have to become an Instructor before becoming a coach, you can go straight to the coach award. I suspect the only reason the Instructor level exists is so they don't upset us current Level 1 coaches ;-) I'm guessing they would rather have scrapped the first level of qualification complete.

But I could easily be wrong on the Leader bit, that side of it seems a little vague at the moment :(

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Fozzy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:53 pm

Having only done my Level 1 coach award in April I now feel totally ripped off to the tune of £250. What a complete and utter waste of time and money that was. Nobody told me to wait a few months, then as a 4* leader I could become a level 2 sea kayak coach in just 5 days. Oh no they just took my money and kept quiet about that. And the instructor was a Level 5 coach who sits on the training panel or whatever it's called and knew of my ambitions and total disinterest in open canoes etc.

So do I have to do the theory again or can I just do the sea specific training and assessment. The full flow chart and information on the BC website make no mention of what Level 1 coaches have to do to progress. I could have done the whole thing in less time and therefore presumably similar money as the Level 1. So guess how inclined I am to progress now?

I have also asked BC if my Mountain Leader award and expedition leader experience and CPD would cover me for the campcraft, environmental, customer experience and leadership modules for the Guides award, as the requisite knowledge and skills are way above what can be taught in an 8 hr module. The reply was "Don't know. It's all in line with the ISKGA modules, we haven't looked at other NGB awards." So I won't be going down that path either. I'll stick with being a Sea Leader on the water and change hats when I land and be a Mountain Leader then.

I'm with Mark - it beggars belief really.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by andynormancx » Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:17 pm

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/cour ... ng-coaches

Makes it fairly clear that Level 1 coaches don't get to skip the theory on the new coach award, without explicitly calling out Level 1 coaches by name (it says "Who can bypass the Core Coach Training" and does _not_ list Level 1 coaches).

But that makes sense. In my Level 1 training our instructors were clear that the methodology that we were taught in Level 1 was one of several approaches, the others of which were taught when you moved on to Level 2.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Fozzy » Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:26 pm

So like I said - a complete and utter waste of time and money. I won't be giving them anymore.
I can teach people in sheltered water and when they're ok I can lead them in the sea.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by nickcrowhurst » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:22 am

As I spend part of each year in the USA I'm never quite sure sure how I should pronounce "byzantine", but I recognize when the adjective is applicable. A few years ago (2013) my enthusiastic efforts to become a 4* Sea kayak Leader were eventually destroyed by the shifting and unrealistic demands of the governing body at the time (BCU, Canoe England, British Canoeing???) The final straw was at the last hurdle, when I thought I had ticked all the boxes and attended all the training and assessment courses over several years, including:
2* Canoe (yes, compulsory)
3* kayak,
4* Sea Kayak,
4* Sea Leader training,
Coastal Navigation and tidal planning,
Paddlesafe Child Protection Course,
Canoe Safety Test,
maintained a paddling and coaching log book
and obtained an Emergency First Aid qualification, including resuscitation.
Armed with these expensive and time-consuming qualifications I was then permitted to "register" with the governing body, via a Form LR2 and a fee (currently £39) to be eligible to pay the Course fee for assessment to a 4* Sea kayak Leader Course provider. (You may need to read that more than once).

I then discovered that a new change to the qualification list was that my Emergency First Aid certificate was invalid. The course now had to be for two days, and my course had been for just one day.
I contacted the Governing body to point out that the Royal Yachting Association First Aid qualification was for a one-day course with an excellent and appropriate syllabus. I sent the RYA syllabus to the governing body, and pointed out the expense for accommodation, the course fee, and the weekend away from the family to attend the nearest appropriate venue for a two day course. This point was not accepted. A two-day course was mandated.
My wish to "put something back" into the paddling community finally foundered on this rock. I resigned my membership of the BCU/Canoe England/British Canoeing after more decades than I care to consider.

Nick.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Rainshine » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:08 am

Its all become so complicated that you'd lose the will to live just trying to understand the flowcharts!!!!

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by pathbrae » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:07 pm

Maybe we could just have a basic test for paddlers proficiency (we could call it something simple, how about a "proficiency test") then we could do a bit of training, get a bit of experience (maybe keep a log book?) and sit an assessment to become an instructor. (we could call that an "instructor" award) Keeping up our log book and gaining a bit more experience, maybe we could sit a more advanced award - (how about calling it a "Senior Instructor" award) which would let us bring along more paddlers as instructors.
It could be a bit time consuming because we'd need to log enough actual journeys made, trips led, coaching sessions held etc. - but maybe the fact that it would take a bit of time could actually be a good thing?

Somehow - I don't think it'll catch on as an idea though - just not enough money to be made by commercial coaches or by SCA /BCU etc.
So much sea - so little time to see it.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by rockhopper » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:34 am

I am so relieved that it wasn't just me having trouble with it... the UKRGB members have given me a new found spring in my step...Now, just need to get my head around molecular science..!

Rog.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Ceegee » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:53 pm

pathbrae wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:07 pm
Maybe we could just have a basic test for paddlers proficiency (we could call it something simple, how about a "proficiency test") etc. etc.
LMAO!

Steve: Former BCU "sea proficiency", "advanced proficiency" and now a member of nothing at all. I'm with Nick Crowhurst and Mark Rainsley on this one!
Cheers,
Steve C. G.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Mr Ed » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:36 pm

Just out of interest are those that above have expressed anti 'organised' qualifications do you get out regularly to practice rescue skills/boat handling, re-entry rolls in conditions, leading groups you don't know, towing etc?

I'm curious because I completed my 5* 3 years ago after: 3* training, 3*, Coastal Nav, 4* training, First aid 2-day rec, VHF course, 4*, 2 x 5* trainings and Open water Nav, plus 5* assessment. Not a little invested but all personal performance/leadership as opposed to coaching...

My logbook (I still keep one) says I get out 30-50 days per year on the sea all over the British isles.

The 'journey' if you like of working up through the star awards was incredibly useful for me and made me a much better all round paddler. Regularly pushing my comfort zone both personally and in a leading environment and gave me some great goals to work towards. I had one or two near misses which although brutal at the time forced a respect for the sea and an appreciation for why my skills needed to be at that level. I had some great training's and assessment from some big names in the coaching world and learnt a great deal. Therefore although I can respect the view of 'what can a coach do for me?'. I genuinely wonder how such paddlers get better and if they too could have become better paddlers faster if they'd actually taken some training from a good coach/instructor, at the very least they might get some pointers on techniques to brush up and some up to date practice. I also wonder what level these people are paddling at? I suspect if they think they have nothing left to learn the sea might win out sometime!

Do I have any desire to go down a coaching or instructor award route? No however I have a number of friends who are active coaches/instructors/guides and some that aspire to be so I can fully appreciate what they've done/are doing.

Is the BCU coach/instructor route complicated? The new routes look less so than before but the 'legacy' if you like of L1 coach etc could have been better explained and I entirely sympathise with the poster above who felt L1 coach was a waste of time and £250, the costs of everything can mount up and if you're not getting a club to pay for it or you feel you'd benefit from it professionally ( ie make the costs back) it would be very right to consider the costs.

However where I'm going with this long rambling post is probably this- 1.) don't dismiss coaching out of hand, we have probably all got things we could learn from some good instruction and 2.) The coaching qualifications routes need to support both clubs and professional coaching businesses, the re-organisation I suspect is to support the former better though could be a little more clear and tie up the L1 loose ends etc 3.) Try and keep an open mind there is a place in paddling for everyone whatever you want to do whether you want to engage with personal/coaching or instructor awards... or not. Lets just all keep safe.

Cheers

Mr Ed

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by pathbrae » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:17 pm

here is a place in paddling for everyone whatever you want to do whether you want to engage with personal/coaching or instructor awards... or not. Lets just all keep safe.
That's the nail hit squarely on the head.

Unfortunately, SCA BCU etc have no way of recognising experience. They are certificate driven. There are indeed many of us who have tired of the increasingly convoluted demands made on us by a "coaching scheme" which seems to be designed to relieve paddlers of as much money as possible and which, some years ago, made it impossible for a group of paddlers to continue to offer trips under the SCA banner.
So much sea - so little time to see it.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by nickcrowhurst » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:48 pm

Mr Ed wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:36 pm
Just out of interest are those that above have expressed anti 'organised' qualifications do you get out regularly to practice rescue skills/boat handling, re-entry rolls in conditions, leading groups you don't know, towing etc? Mr Ed
My reading of the above posts is not that the posters are "anti 'organised' qualifications", but that the BCU system is byzantine, and needlessly expensive (e.g the 2 day first aid certificate, imposed without consultation of the members.). Indeed, IIRC, for example Mr R has followed the system up to 5* Training, and I followed it until tired of the lack of consideration for the average Joe (like me) who doesn't aim to give professional tuition or professional group leading.
Yes, my little group of pals gets out every Thursday evening right through the winter, and practices rolling and rescue techniques for two hours every week in the dark and freezing rain. I have also several times paid £150 plus travelling expenses for one day of one-to-one coaching from one of the best qualified BCU coaches, so that I could gain experience in rougher sea conditions, such as tide races.
Good coaching is superb, and can be transformative.

Nick.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by ron-t » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:57 pm

Hi

I am another paddler who gave up on the coaching scheme away back in the days of Instructor and Senior Instructor, although not only for the same reasons as given above.

The coaching scheme went stupid when the BCU stole the 4 star and the 5 star awards and turned them into coaching awards - although the BCU tried to pretend that they weren`t coaching awards, they were leadership awards - who cares, they came with all the baggage that the coaching scheme created.

The original 4 star and 5 star badges were awarded for personal paddling skills, not for coaching.

So when the BCU stole them, they left non-coaches with no way to assess and quantify their personal paddling skills, which has been a bit of a vacuum.

Now the BCU have changed things again, and the 4 star and 5 star coaching awards no longer exist, as they have been replaced by Leader and Advanced leader.

So is there any chance that the BCU will continue to backtrack back into the real world and actually bring back the 4 star and 5 star awards as awards for personal paddling skills.

It could well lead to a whole new series of training courses and assessments - good for the paddlers who are interested in developing their personal paddling skills, and good for coaches as it increases their revenue stream.

A win - win development.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by Allan Olesen » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:06 am

ron-t wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:57 pm

Now the BCU have changed things again, and the 4 star and 5 star coaching awards no longer exist, as they have been replaced by Leader and Advanced leader.
A coach has been taught how to coach and lead.
A leader has only been taught how to lead.

So calling both of them "coaches" is wrong and silly.

Calling both of them "leaders" would be silly, but not wrong.

Calling leaders "leaders" and coaches "coaches" will prevent a lot of misunderstanding.

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Re: British Canoeing Sea Kayak Coach

Post by RichJ » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:11 am

We don't have to have Coaches or Leaders! And as mentioned earlier in this thread there are many groups who perform at top levels without 'formal' BC endorsed qualifications.

Thus, to open up the debate a few questions which BC must have asked themselves before this review, but would be interesting to view Forum thoughts:-

1) Why gain very expensive qualifications ?
2) What are we looking for from endorsed a) Coaches and b) Leaders?
3) To take Allan Olesen's point above, is it 'wrong and silly' to call a leader a 'Coach'? Or maybe that should read 'BC endorsed Coach' ...because to be fair, four days training on the new Scheme sure ain't loads!

Finally, thank you gethroberts for starting the thread. It's good to have a thrash around these topics from time to time!

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