Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

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Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

It feels as if I've been waiting for ages for it to arrive, but the wait has been worth it.

There looks to be a few improvements over my previous Scorpio 170 and it doesn't look massive in comparison. New hatch lids are a pain to fit, as is the cockpit cover and the new deck, but I'm sure they'll ease a little with use.

Roll on Saturday for a few days of familiarisation and self rescue work on Windermere.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by twopigs »

Be aware the day hatch lid might not be as leakproof as you are used to!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

great news.

plenty silicone spray on the hatch rims and covers!

Have fun,
Douglas

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by PhilAyr »

Congratulations on your purchase Northern Blue. I have owned the MV version for over 18 months now and I love it. In fact I would go as far as to say that it is the best boat I have ever paddled. I only wish P & H made a glass version !

I also had a small leak in my day hatch but the matter was resolved quickly by P & H when they sent a replacement cover. In any case I am sure the boats are now sold with a different style of day hatch cover.

Kind regards

Phil

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

twopigs wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:39 am
Be aware the day hatch lid might not be as leakproof as you are used to!
I'll keep an eye on that thanks. I had no such problems with the seal on my 170, but I did see a video review online recently, where the reviewer gave the day hatch seal 1/10 and described as "not fit for purpose" !

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Douglas Wilcox wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:36 pm
great news.

plenty silicone spray on the hatch rims and covers!

Have fun,
Douglas
I'm not complaining, but you have to bear some responsibility for this purchase Douglas. Inspiring me to get out on Loch Linnhe a little while back, with my Cetus paddling buddy, is what finally swung me back to a 'sit in' and away from my Thresher.

I'll see how much continued use the Thresher gets before deciding its fate.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

PhilAyr wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:48 pm
........I only wish P & H made a glass version........
I always thought the Scorpio was the plastic version of the Cetus ?

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Hi Northern, the Cetus and Scorpio are both manoeuvrable swede form touring kayaks but there are noticeable differences. The Scorpio is a bit wider with more rocker and is a bit more stable when not paddling. It is more manoeuvrable than the Cetus and has a different type of skeg (if you have the skeged version). The ergonomics of the seat/cockpit are also different which may or may not suit. I like the Scorpio a lot and paddled one for a whole summer, camping and day paddling and I did not miss my Cetus at all. i wish you many happy voyages.

Douglas :o)

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Stoney Mike »

Congratulations, I got my new Scorpio MV earlier this week, christened it today and was very pleased with it.

Fantastic boat and super comfy. My only issue was the day hatch came loose a few times despite pushing it on firmly. One of the guys I was paddling with suggested wrapping some plumber tape around the rim to make a tighter seal.

Happy padding, hope you enjoy yours.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Stoney Mike wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:44 pm
Congratulations, I got my new Scorpio MV earlier this week, christened it today and was very pleased with it.

Fantastic boat and super comfy. My only issue was the day hatch came loose a few times despite pushing it on firmly. One of the guys I was paddling with suggested wrapping some plumber tape around the rim to make a tighter seal.

Happy padding, hope you enjoy yours.
Late reply SM as I've been over paddling on Windermere since Saturday.

No problems with any of the hatch covers, in fact if anything they're super tight and I'm hoping they loosen a little. A couple of times I thought I'd fully closed a cover, by pushing it down, only to check and find that it hadn't seated correctly. Rather than pushing the last bit down, or hammering it with my hand (like my dealer did) I now tend to roll the last bit back on itself and find that it locks in to position lovely.

I'm not sure whether my skeg is deploying correctly, as the skeg release only travels half of the distance of the slider. The skeg releases, but I'm sure the one on my previous Scorpio stuck out much further and the release travelled the whole length of the slider channel.
It looks easy enough to adjust, but I didn't want to start tinkering if the 'half' position is correctly set by P&H.

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Stoney Mike »

Hi Ken, just seen your reply. It's just the day hatch that was loose on my boat, will check it's fully down next time.

My skeg slider only goes halfway, but I checked under the boat and it is fully retracted. I assumed the extra space on the slider is to account for any stretch developing in the skeg cord over time.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by PhilAyr »

Stoney Mike wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:13 am
My skeg slider only goes halfway, but I checked under the boat and it is fully retracted. I assumed the extra space on the slider is to account for any stretch developing in the skeg cord over time.
Hi Northern

Sounds as if the slider was set up for the skudder rather than the skeg.

For "skudder" fitted boats the remaining half of the slider deploys or retracts it.

Phil

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

I've been in touch with P&H and they have confirmed that the 'half way' set up is correct for the skeg and that this method is to allow for the eventual stretching of the skeg line, even though the lines are pre-stretched, which may take a few months of use.

The problem that I have, is that I'm paddling right through the winter, in conditions where I need the skeg to fully deploy now, not in a few months time when the line has stretched and as the line is currently at its shortest, there is no adjustment available to me.

Currently, when the slider is fully deployed, but limited to the halfway point by the short skeg line, my skeg barely clears the bottom of the kayak and there is no way of extending it.

P&H might have that set up correct and it might work for the majority of their customers, which puts my requirements squarely in the minority box, but I need a skeg that I can use to its full potential now.

P&H are kindly supplying me with a longer skeg line, FOC and are putting the issue through to their design team.

Fingers crossed that the delivery gets here tomorrow, as I'm setting off on Sunday for my next trip !

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by PhilAyr »

[quoteI've been in touch with P&H and they have confirmed that the 'half way' set up is correct for the skeg and that this method is to allow for the eventual stretching of the skeg line, even though the lines are pre-stretched, which may take a few months of use.]
[/quote]

Well that's a new one on me ! I will take a bet and say that in all probability the line was too short in the first place.

One word of warning.. Fitting a new line and adjusting it correctly is not an easy job. I had to fit a new line to my Scorpio a couple of months ago and ended up sucking it through the tube with a vacuum cleaner ! Not easy and very frustrating. Also make sure that the cord is at the correct length before you tie a knot in it at the skeg blade as it is very difficult to undo if you get it wrong ! I would wait until you come back from your trip. In any case I have found that the Scorpio is a great boat and handles well even with half a skeg !

Kind regards

Phil

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Thanks Phil,

With Stoney Mike's new Scorpio being set up the same as mine, it doesn't look like a short skeg line has been accidentally fitted.

There's a short guide to fitting a new skeg on the P&H website, which shows them attaching the new line to the old, to facilitate pulling through and which I'm hoping to do. I can imagine it being a pain otherwise and will keep the vacuum in mind.

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

New skeg line arrived in the post this afternoon, so hopefully I should get it changed over next week while I'm away.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by LardPaddler »

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the kayak. I am in the process of buying my first kayak. Wife is getting a new bath and kitchen, my prize is any kayak I would like, but so far I cannot make up my mind. I found the Scorpio HV very comfortable, and I'd be curious to hear your opinion.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

LP, This is my second Scorpio, but my first HV, the previous one being the 170 and both are very capable kayaks.

I've not had this one fully loaded yet and have only carried my C-Tug in the rear hatch, which when paddling in a strong wind last time out, it was obvious that when travelling side on to the wind, the boat would have reacted better if it had been loaded more, or if the skeg was fully down.

I find it is a very stable platform and even in choppier conditions, have no hesitation in stopping paddling and getting the (non waterproof) camera out.
I haven't mastered rolling yet, but last time out on Windermere, I did a few capsize and re-entry practices and although I had a paddle float with me, the Scorpio was stable enough for me to climb on to the rear deck and re-enter the cockpit 'cowboy' style, without having to resort to using the float.

I'm heading back across to Cumbria this afternoon for a few days paddling with a Cetus owning mate and it will be interesting to see how they compare.

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Hi Northern, the skeg only version of the Scorpio only uses half the track. The Skudder version uses the whole length of the track. The blue line will not stretch, it is made from a version of dyneema. All sizes of the Scorpio paddle very well without a skeg so I would be very surprised if your skeg needs to come down any further than it does at the moment. The several skeg only Scorpios that I have seen and used all had the leading edge of the skeg come down about 45 degrees from the keel line. As Phil has said, it is a fiddly job replacing the line and easier if you can manage to tie the new line to the old and pull it through. I tend not to cut the line to length once it is tied. I leave a bit of spare at the skeg end. I would be inclined to wait until you have paddled the boat in a variety of winds before deciding to replace the skeg line.

Side on to the wind in the Scorpio you do not usually need the skeg the whole way down. That is usually only required with the wind behind you.

I wish you many enjoyable paddles.

Douglas

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by PhilAyr »

Hi Douglas,

I have not paddled a skegged Scorpio but your explanation does make a lot of sense.

Thanks for your input.

kind regards.

Phil

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by ron-t »

Hi

A few years ago I was trying to decide what boat to buy, and one of the boats I tried was a Scorpio - however it turned out that it wasn`t the kind of boat I was looking for, so I didn`t take it any further.

However the person who owned it told me that the Scorpio had a good characteristic in that if somebody capsized and came out of their boat, when their Scorpio was righted, there was hardly any water in it.

Some sea kayaks seem to scoop up half the Atlantic ocean when they are flipped up, so this was a good characteristic from his point of view, and he had 3 or 4 of them for his students to use.

It would have been good for me as well, since I was looking for a boat that would be good for doing self rescues - I didn`t ever try it, maybe others have found it a useful characteristic.

It isn`t a characteristic that is really discussed much, or even at all, in reviews or discussions about boats - maybe it should be, I have found some big differences in how easy or difficult it is to do self rescues in different boats.

In Canadian canoes I believe that tumblehome has a significant impact on the amount of water that is or isn`t scooped up, but I don`t really know what aspect of sea kayak design affects it - maybe cockpit width relative to boat width would have an impact.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Douglas Wilcox wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:03 pm
Hi Northern, the skeg only version of the Scorpio only uses half the track. The Skudder version uses the whole length of the track. The blue line will not stretch, it is made from a version of dyneema. All sizes of the Scorpio paddle very well without a skeg so I would be very surprised if your skeg needs to come down any further than it does at the moment. The several skeg only Scorpios that I have seen and used all had the leading edge of the skeg come down about 45 degrees from the keel line. As Phil has said, it is a fiddly job replacing the line and easier if you can manage to tie the new line to the old and pull it through. I tend not to cut the line to length once it is tied. I leave a bit of spare at the skeg end. I would be inclined to wait until you have paddled the boat in a variety of winds before deciding to replace the skeg line.

Side on to the wind in the Scorpio you do not usually need the skeg the whole way down. That is usually only required with the wind behind you.

I wish you many enjoyable paddles.

Douglas
Hi Douglas,

Strangely enough, sat in the Dog and Gun at Keswick earlier this evening and my mate mentioned the Dyneema not stretching, however that goes against what P&H emailed me, about the half way setting allowing for the skeg line stretching and sending me out a longer line.

Confusion reigns !

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Hi Ken, who was it who emailed? I first saw a Scorpio HV with a skeg rather than a skudder on a paddling trip with Mathew Wikinson from P&H in September 2016. I noticed straight away that the slider only moved over half the track but that the skeg went through the full range of movement. Mathew confirmed that they were designed this way as the skeg only deploys to about 45 degrees but the skudder needs to deploy to nearly 90 degrees so that the trailing edge of the shudder can clear the skeg box and so be able to turn.

Earlier this year Mathew delivered both a skudder Scorpio HV and later another skeg Scorpio HV to my house. On the skeg one, the slider again only moved half way but the skeg deployed to its full designed angle of about 45 degrees. I can guarantee the blue line will not stretch. I would keep the one they sent you as a spare.

Best wishes, Douglas

PS my cred on here must be diminishing fast, far to many skeg posts from me recently! :o)


PPS the line they send will be longer as they use the same length for all kayaks and it needs cut down to suit each design.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by PhilAyr »

Hi Ken

I agree with Douglas, I have been paddling the Scorpio for over 18 months now and in that time I have not noticed any stretch in the cord. Ken ..why don't you save yourself the hassle and leave it alone and keep the new cord as a spare ?

After all " If it aint broke...... " !

On a final note I have had a look at my boat and although its fitted with a skudder I have noticed that when it is in skeg mode with the slider half way, the skeg/skudder sits at 45 degrees, which is probably the same as yours.

Douglas wrote :
PS my cred on here must be diminishing fast, far to many skeg posts from me recently! :o)
No worries Douglas. Skegs are similar to another over discussed subject ... They are either in / out or half way. In any case they are a far more interesting topic than Brexit ! ;-)

Phil

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Douglas/Phil,

I'm just back in the land of Internet connectivity and thanks for your continued contributions to another skeg thread. Your help is appreciated.

It was Mat himself that I've been in contact with at P&H and advised me of the 'pre-set stretch' set up.

Mat had the benefit of a photo showing my skeg fully deployed, which you gents haven't due to it being such a pain on the forum, but to try to explain it to you, the lowest edge of my skeg sits perfectly in the horizontal plain when fully deployed. I'll happily email pics if you PM me details ?

When comparing it to the Cetus that I've been paddling alongside this week, that skeg and my previous Scorpio have that lowest edge at approximately 45 degrees from horizontal. We've paddled in various wind conditions this week and my mate has been getting similar control over his Cetus, by partially deploying his skeg, where mine was as fully deployed as far as it would go.

Ken.

PS. Until I get clarification, the skeg line hasn't been changed yet !

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by LardPaddler »

Northern Blue wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:51 pm
Douglas/Phil,

When comparing it to the Cetus that I've been paddling alongside this week
How do you see the Scorpio HV compared to the Cetus generally? I am looking at both these. The problem here in Norway is that the closest sandy beach is probably in Northumberland, or Denmark if one is to be geographically pedantic...

Thus, the Scorpio is rather attractive due to the fear that the Cetus would be completely bashed up...

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

LardPaddler wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:19 pm
Northern Blue wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:51 pm
Douglas/Phil,

When comparing it to the Cetus that I've been paddling alongside this week
How do you see the Scorpio HV compared to the Cetus generally? I am looking at both these. The problem here in Norway is that the closest sandy beach is probably in Northumberland, or Denmark if one is to be geographically pedantic...

Thus, the Scorpio is rather attractive due to the fear that the Cetus would be completely bashed up...
I don't think Andy63, who's Cetus it is will mind me saying so, but he is quite a bit shorter than me and him having gone for a custom bulkhead, I would never fit in it, so can't make that direct comparison from a paddling perspective. His is the MV and from afar, it seems to be sleeker and a bit more efficient through the water, than my Scorpio. That could just as easily be down to bulk, both the HV Scorpio's size and mine !

Andy uses it as it's meant to be used and within reason, he's not as anal as me about preventing scratches, so he's a bit rougher with handling his and I've not noticed any scrapes or marks as a result, so it seems to be a bit more resilient than plastic.

Ken.

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Ken, PM sent.

Hi LardPaddler my advice would be to only buy a boat you have actually paddled, fit is very, very important. In the past I have recommended a Norkapp LV, a Cetus MV and a Taran 16 to paddlers who lived far from dealers. Two didn't fit their ordered boats and the third was lucky, he managed to sit in a visiting tourist's Taran 16 before he pressed the order button and went on to get a Taran 18 instead. For example the cockpit of the Scorpio HV is much larger than the Cetus HV.

During 2015, 2016 and the spring of 2017 I paddled Scopio HV, MV and Cetus HV, MV interchangeably. I liked the Scorpio very much indeed. Myself and two friends have composite P&H boats and RM Scorpios. Recently all three of us have paddled the Scorpios more than the composite boats. The RM boats will survive a blunt bash much better than composite eg being dropped off the car roof or being bashed sidewayes by a wave into a rock wall. Both will be scuffed by barnacles. It is easier to repair even a badly damaged composite boat. There is not a great deal of difference in speed between a Scorpio and a Cetus at relaxed touring pace. I have often been a member of a camping trip when I have been the only RM boat and have not noticed any disadvantage or difficulty keeping up. However, if you are a fitness paddler and enjoy racing your mates headland to headland don't get a Scorpio, get a boat like a Taran or a Pace instead.

Douglas

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by andy63 »

hi ken, its Andy, just found the thread and great to see the advice you are getting.. ill be keen to see what Douglas thinks of your preset skeg set up..
it did seem as if it could have dropped a little more to be fully deployed ..

Andy

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Re: Picked My New Mk11 Scorpio HV Up Today

Post by Northern Blue »

Testing image upload, skeg deployed as far as it will go......

Image

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