Shallow water worries

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DonA
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Shallow water worries

Post by DonA » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:57 pm

Firstly may I introduce myself as I am new to this forum I'm a big healthy'ish 53 he old from Warrington who's looking to get into sea kayaking .
I've joined the forum for the wealth of information and experience you all freely offer , anyways years ago as a teen I capsized in the shallows to deep to put my hand down and too shallow to roll out of a snugly fitting kayak thus I panicked and dwelled on it ever since.
As I type this I realize it sounds stupid now but has anyone else had similar and what should be done correctly.
I only ask as I'm due to demo a boat tomorrow .
Thanks in advance. Don

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Chris Bolton » Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:49 pm

The normal way to wet exit is a forward roll so that your legs follow smoothly out of the cockpit. It sounds as if that's what you were trying to do. If you hit the bottom doing that, you should just be able to tilt the kayak a bit to give you room. Are you saying you hit your shoulders on the bottom but couldn't push up or sideways?

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by DonA » Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:34 pm

As I recall yes head and shoulders at an angle and trying to push the kayak of me , I was and still am very inexperienced in SIK's thinking about it now days and With what you've said and keeping a calm head it sounds easy enough .I know all this sounds daft but it's bothered me for years.
Thanks a lot Don

sleepyfolk
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by sleepyfolk » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:30 pm

I get where you're coming from, I had a bad experience with a kayak that has one of those centre supports between your knees, I still won't get in one to this day, best thing you can do is do a bit of capsizing near the shore with a buddy in the water To build up confidence in exiting, I'm quite happy exiting my Delphin with its big ass cockpit hole and never wear anything remotely snaggy or bulky on my feet!

pathbrae
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by pathbrae » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:00 pm

How did the demo go?

I think kayak cockpits will have change a lot since your teenage years. Nowadays, with big key-hole cockpits, you'll fall out without any real effort regardless of how shallow the water was. The basic drill is deck off, hand behind hips and roll out forward - which is supposed to stop you getting a face full of sand / rock / seaweed - with your paddle still in your other hand.
Also - most sea kayaks are probably a lot more stable than the kayak you were in as a teenager so the possibility of having to get out after a capsise are much less.
As sleepyfolk suggests, a bit of supported practice with a friend, a good dealer at a demo day or with a local club - or even, as a last resort, a paid session with an instructor to help you get past the fear of capsising and being trapped will pay dividends.
So much sea - so little time to see it.

Kirsten
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Kirsten » Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:32 pm

I capsized once in less then knee deep water (kayak sideways in the wind when a proper gale hit me by surprise) but I got out after a struggle. I was laying on the backdeck, mouth more or less in the mud/grass, so I couldn't reach the Spraydeck and I had to kick quite a bit with my knees. (it was actually to slippy on the ground to roll onto the side and get the head over the surface for a breather)
But is the water this deep that your hand can't reach the ground then you have enough space to lean forward, grab the loop and get out in a controlled manner. That's the main thing: staying calm, grab the loop from the spraydeck ( I use both hands as after get the spraydeck of in front I fiddle along the cockpit rim that the spraydeck is complete loose), then knees together and push with both hands the kayak away from your bum. I don't do a roll, as soon the knees are free I roll onto the side with one hand keeping hold of the kayak and the other of the paddle. (When I go for the spray deck, I put the paddle under my armpit).

For the start: Spraydeck on, you capsize and then do some counting, hand movements, Paddle left, paddle right ... someone else is turning your put the right way up on a signal (usually banging on the hull). When you are comfortable with it, then no spraydeck, but capsize and exercise to get out of the put after some moments. and finally the whole thing with spraydeck on.

Lot of people are fine with diving and head under water, but not being upside down. A warm up can be without boat and doing rolls and handstand in the water.

If you are relax it is actually easier to get out of a kayak upside down, then getting in the right way ;)

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TechnoEngineer
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:56 pm

As the boat is going over, if you rotate your body such that you're facing up towards the surface with your shoulders parallel to the surface, you can get out before the boat is fully capsized. The legs corkscrew out. I stumbled upon this method before I learnt to wet-exit properly (capsizing fully and "taking the trousers off"). Watch the paddler do it here in this video clip:
https://youtu.be/zm6wHEAiN8w?t=1m44s

Please note this is not recommended technique.
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:01 pm

Kirsten wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:32 pm
I capsized once in less then knee deep water (kayak sideways in the wind when a proper gale hit me by surprise) but I got out after a struggle. I was laying on the backdeck, mouth more or less in the mud/grass, so I couldn't reach the Spraydeck and I had to kick quite a bit with my knees.
I've had this when in surf; I made a point of practising how to get a deck off without using the grab loop - getting fingers under the lip and peeling the spraydeck off from the side.
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GrahamC
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by GrahamC » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:22 pm

Hi Don, welcome from another Warrington paddler!

As others have said, boats have changed a lot and cockpits have changed size and shape making exits much easier.

One thing to do would be to join a local club. I will, of course, push my own club, Macclesfield and District Canoe Club which have access to a lake near Holmes Chapel on a Thursday night (and run pool sessions in the winter) where you can practice this, as well as rescues etc. before paddling on the sea.
Other clubs are also available, both Manchester and Liverpool have sea kayaking available.

Graham
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Kirsten
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Kirsten » Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:56 pm

TechnoEngineer wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:01 pm
Kirsten wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:32 pm
I capsized once in less then knee deep water (kayak sideways in the wind when a proper gale hit me by surprise) but I got out after a struggle. I was laying on the backdeck, mouth more or less in the mud/grass, so I couldn't reach the Spraydeck and I had to kick quite a bit with my knees.
I've had this when in surf; I made a point of practising how to get a deck off without using the grab loop - getting fingers under the lip and peeling the spraydeck off from the side.
I can do this in my plastic boat as the rim is quite round and spacious, but the rim of my Cetus is quite tight. no chance to get the fingers under the rubber of the spraydeck, at least on the site. But now I have a roll, which helps as I'm now used to get my body to the side of the boat and a lot of training in the pool was to orientate under water.

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Allan Olesen » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:56 am

Kirsten wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:56 pm
I can do this in my plastic boat as the rim is quite round and spacious, but the rim of my Cetus is quite tight. no chance to get the fingers under the rubber of the spraydeck, at least on the site.
You should be a able to grab "a handfull of sprayskirt" beside your hips and pull it away from you and up. This will have the same result.

I try to teach this method to beginners as it will give them another option if they have accidentally hidden the loop beneath the skirt.

Anyway, I try to stay away from sprayskirts which I can't release with my knees. Very cheap and very expensive skirts can usually be released with the knees. Medium priced skirts are more hit and miss.

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TechnoEngineer
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by TechnoEngineer » Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:00 pm

Kirsten wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:56 pm
I can do this in my plastic boat as the rim is quite round and spacious, but the rim of my Cetus is quite tight. no chance to get the fingers under the rubber of the spraydeck, at least on the side.
What if you punch the deck inside the coaming?
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DonA
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by DonA » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:36 pm

Thanks for 5he reply's and tips I did type a lengthier response earlyer but it seems to have disappeared ? But in short thanks I don't quite feel so daft now and yes some assisted practice in shallows is definatley on the cards as for joining a club that is a definate cheers Graham I like the sound of the lake sessions and as pathbrae mentioned about cockpits and stability ,spot on eight miles in the scott hv was a total joy the only downer was being collerd by the canal police on the bridgewater apparently reported by a canal barge for kayaking without a licence ?????? I played dumb and the chap was OK so no harm done but still ????? .
So pick up boat next week , join the bcu and join a club.
Thanks again Don

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GrahamC
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by GrahamC » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:52 pm

DonA wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:36 pm
the only downer was being collerd by the canal police on the bridgewater apparently reported by a canal barge for kayaking without a licence ?????? I played dumb and the chap was OK so no harm done but still ????? .

Thanks again Don
What!!!! I have paddled literally thousands of miles on the Bridgewater over the past decade and no one has ever asked for a licence. There is no way a narrow boat would know if you were licenced or not; remember to keep to the RIGHT on the canal. Years ago the BCU issued stickers but now it is a card that I leave in my wallet. Where did this happen? It may be a bogus "official". There is a guy employed to check that narrowboats on continuous cruising licences are being every two weeks but I have not heard of him checking kayaks - but you may be the first! Maybe you could send me a personal message with some details as I would definitely like to know where it occurred.

Great that you are picking up a boat! Maybe see you around sometime.

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Mac50L » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:26 pm

If you are going to use the spray deck release, this might make it a little easier to find and grab -

http://www.kask.org.nz/spray-skirts/

http://kask.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/S ... elease.pdf

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Chris Bolton » Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:18 pm

Years ago the BCU issued stickers but now it is a card that I leave in my wallet.
Indeed - I have also paddled on there for years without a problem but, technically, the Bridgewater is a private canal, not managed by CRT, and unless it's been updated, the BCU agreement is only with CRT. So the need for a licence on the Bridgewater has, as I've understood it, been a bit ambiguous; they accepted CRT licences for boats that have moved onto the Bridgewater from CRT canals, but did that include canoe and kayak that have launched on the Bridgewater.

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GrahamC
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by GrahamC » Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:08 pm

The Bridgewater canal is part of the BC waterways licence so it is definitely worth joining British Canoeing if they are now checking. It is interesting to note that it doesn't cover SUPs on all waterways (not included on the Bridgewater). The Manchester Ship Canal Company who are the ultimate owners of the Bridgewater have been taking a very strict line on narrowboats with the CRT licence - 7 consecutive days or they have to buy a short term licence..

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/guid ... angements/

The only place I have ever been checked is on the Thames.
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DonA
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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by DonA » Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:02 pm

Yes loading the kayak on the the roof bars at a lay bye on Stockton lane Grapenhall a black 4x4 pulls up with a chap in a bit of a police uniform and a lady with a clip board as I said he was ok but to say I was reported by a boater for no licence ?????? only passed one moving boat and they were fine in fact I new them .
The staff at the local kayak shop had never heard the like and the locals I know who paddle allso have never heard of such, but I own a shop/post office right on the canal and have seen a big increase in licence checks and mooring durations in the past year peel holdings I think.
The only thing I can think of is a fisherman who I had to pass twice he had a right face on him and is known for his attitude ?????? Not calling anglers, I fish allso .

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:35 am

I was reported by a boater for no licence ??????
But you do need a licence, which you would have if a member of British Canoeing, otherwise you'd need to get an individual one. As Graham says, the Bridgewater is included in the licence (my post above was based on memory and was out of date).

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/memb ... s-license/

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Allan Olesen » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:56 am

Chris Bolton wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:35 am
But you do need a licence
I may have misunderstood the discussion, but I think that the unspoken question is: "How would the boater have known if DonA had a license or not if the license is supposed to be carried in your wallet?"

And question #2:
"If a citizen reports that he has seen a crime taking place, and it is obvious for the police that he cannot have seen this crime taking place, should they then follow up on the report?".

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by GrahamC » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:03 pm

Allan Olesen wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:56 am
Chris Bolton wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 10:35 am
But you do need a licence
I may have misunderstood the discussion, but I think that the unspoken question is: "How would the boater have known if DonA had a license or not if the license is supposed to be carried in your wallet?"
Exactly, there is no way they could have known, sounds like someone out to make trouble. Thank goodness we don't need licences to use the sea!

And question #2:
"If a citizen reports that he has seen a crime taking place, and it is obvious for the police that he cannot have seen this crime taking place, should they then follow up on the report?".
It is not a crime, it would be a civil matter. I think I would have asked for their authority - more out of interest than anything else. It is possible that they are also collecting information about canal users, I believe that Peel want to see more recreational users and they will need numbers to apply for grants etc to maintain the waterway. I have occasionally flashed my card when discussing matters with fishermen, just to prove that we pay too - and also never had a bad issue with a fisherman, even when paddling through a match (with the one exception of a guy at Stretton who threw half bricks at me when I was paddling a K1 "too fast", but that ended up as a report to the police).

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:04 pm

I may also have misunderstood, but I thought DonA was surprised at having to have a licence, as well as at being shopped by the boater. I suspect that the boater might have been visited by the licence chaser, and decided that nobody else should get away with not having one; I think the licences issued to narrowboats are visible, so the boater might have expected to see one on DonA's kayak.

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by rockhopper » Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:15 pm

with the one exception of a guy at Stretton who threw half bricks at me when I was paddling a K1 "too fast"
a fine response to someone who he thinks is scaring the fish...throw rocks at them.....I'm sure the fish were much happier with that!!!!

Rog.

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Re: Shallow water worries

Post by DonA » Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:00 pm

I seem to have opened a can of worms unintentionally but just to clarify I had no issues of any kind with the one moving boat or any of the stationary boats. I was aware a licence is needed but I had no intention of getting one just to demo a boat but now fully intend to get one and have no issue with that at all,good value for money in my opinion for how much I intend to paddle the canal.
And finally the chap asking for the licence was perfectly fine and pleasant .
Anyways expect to see me paddling the canal in my spanky new kayak wafting my shiny new licence.

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