4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

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Mr Ed
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4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Mr Ed » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:06 pm

Some changes to BCU sorry British Canoeing syllabuses.

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/news ... r-award-1/

I enjoyed my journey up the stars as it were. I learnt a great deal through 5* training and building up of the experience to go for assessment.

I've been completely turned off by the whole UKCC system though. To me it just looks like lots of money for not a lot of benefit (i'm none-commercial and don't make any money from paddling but do take groups/friends out on occasion). I'm not sure how this re-branding will work?

5* has now changed to 'advanced sea kayak leader' too.

Thoughts?

Mr Ed

Mr Ed
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Mr Ed » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:21 pm

New 'Guide' qualification too.

https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/cour ... rsed-guide

Need to do 3 out of 5 modules then apply.

3 x 8 hrs = ~£400-£500?

Worth it?

Fozzy
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Fozzy » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:37 pm

My understanding is Paddlesport Leader is a new award below that of 4* and is aimed at 3* paddlers to enable them to lead groups primarily in the club environment and in sheltered waters.

4* is now Sea Kayak Leader but the syllabus and assessment hasn't changed, similarly 5* is now Advanced Sea Kayak Leader again with no change other than the name.

I had a really good read of the "guide" stuff and they give the impression they are trying to copy the ISKGA formula but coming up very very short. Still not sure how they will accept crossover experience from other NGB's eg will my Mountain Leader award which took years to obtain be accepted for campcraft and wildlife or will I have to take some one day modules?

Personally I just feel BC is getting more and more out of touch with grassroots non competitive paddling.

Mac50L
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Mac50L » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:58 pm

Do they anywhere give information to the grassroots non competitive paddler? How to paddle and do rescues. Basic information.

I certainly couldn't find any. Where do instructors get their information on what they should teach? Do they have to pay for it?

Mr Ed
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Mr Ed » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:17 am

"British Canoeing is removing the 4 Star Touring Leadership Award from the suite of qualifications; as
it has a significant amount of cross-over/duplication with the new Paddlesport Leader Award.
Paddlers who have already achieved the 4 Star Touring Award will still be able to use it. It has a
similar operating remit to the Paddlesport Leader but the 4 Star Touring Leader is able to work
further away from the shore and in stronger wind conditions."

Taken from some of the guidance documents.

Apologies I wasn't aware of the subtle difference between 'touring award' and 'Sea kayak leader'.

twopigs
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by twopigs » Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:41 am

As I understood things 3* ww kayak was moved from moving water to Grade 2 because too many people were turning up for 4* training unable to paddle in the 4* environment. Now with the renaming the Leader and Advanced Leader roles will be emphasised and remove any suggestion that 4* and 5* fit into the personal performance awards. That can only be a good thing.
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

robhorton
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by robhorton » Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:22 pm

On the plus side, the BC leadership awards are much more accessible than the mountaineering equivalents. The ML for instance requires a 5 day assessment just to take people hill walking which few non-professionals are going to bother with, whereas it's pretty common for club paddlers to take 4*/5* (leader / advanced leader) awards.

Rainshine
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Rainshine » Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:45 am

Based on the published remit for the new PaddleSport Leader Award, its definitely below the current 4* remit. I'm hard pressed to think of many places in Scotland where you could lead a paddle within the remit of this award given the conditions, environment and wind strength limitations it imposes. Well, there might be a few places (like large puddles) but they aren't ones that many folk would actually want to paddle!!

It feels like the whole BCU awards, guiding qualifications and UKCC coaching awards are just an ever expanding means for commercial providers too keep making more and more money out of joe public for a growing number of increasingly complicated and increasingly useless bits of paper.

Cynical, me? Never!!!

Rainshine
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Rainshine » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:29 pm

I had a quick look at the BCU website after reading this thread and it does look as though the 4* and 5* awards have been done away with - they no longer appear on the BCU website. Everything stops at 3*. The Paddlesport Leader Award is the first of 3 leadership awards - it's followed by Moderate Water Leader then Advanced Water Leader. Oh and then there's the Guide Endorsement but its not that easy to work out where it sits in the whole scheme of things.

One of the complaints from normal folk about the 'old' BCU star system was that there were no personal paddling skills awards after 3* - all the focus beyond 3* was on leading. If you didn't want to lead trips then there was nothing for you. And it seems to me that the new system is exactly the same - there's nothing there for people who just want to focus on improving their own personal paddling skills and would like to be able to benchmark themselves against a set of objective skill standards. The bit of paper isn't so important - its the fact that course providers tend to offer courses that match the BCU qualifications. Without advanced personal paddling skills awards, providers are far less inclined to offer advanced personal skills courses. Even if they do, there's no objective way of working out what those courses will include - my idea of advanced skills will be different to everyone else's.

Oh well, I shall just keep paddling on and enjoying myself!!

rowlandW
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by rowlandW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:24 am

I can't help thinking that it would a lot more logical to have a Star Awards 1-5 system based purely on personal paddling and skills in the appropriate grades of water, weather and conditions, with Leadership Awards (Basic, Moderate, Advanced?) as separate bolt-ons. Lots of people I know want the knowledge of where they sit in a graduated personal skills progression but would rather have teeth pulled without anaesthetic than go anywhere near a leader role. And there's nothing wrong with that.

robhorton
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by robhorton » Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:14 am

Rainshine wrote:I had a quick look at the BCU website after reading this thread and it does look as though the 4* and 5* awards have been done away with - they no longer appear on the BCU website. Everything stops at 3*. The Paddlesport Leader Award is the first of 3 leadership awards - it's followed by Moderate Water Leader then Advanced Water Leader. Oh and then there's the Guide Endorsement but its not that easy to work out where it sits in the whole scheme of things.
Yes, they've renamed 4* and 5* as Moderate and Advanced Leader - the syllabus hasn't changed. It's just the 4* Touring which has been withdrawn.
One of the complaints from normal folk about the 'old' BCU star system was that there were no personal paddling skills awards after 3* - all the focus beyond 3* was on leading. If you didn't want to lead trips then there was nothing for you. And it seems to me that the new system is exactly the same - there's nothing there for people who just want to focus on improving their own personal paddling skills and would like to be able to benchmark themselves against a set of objective skill standards. The bit of paper isn't so important - its the fact that course providers tend to offer courses that match the BCU qualifications. Without advanced personal paddling skills awards, providers are far less inclined to offer advanced personal skills courses. Even if they do, there's no objective way of working out what those courses will include - my idea of advanced skills will be different to everyone else's.
I do know what you mean - most the advanced training on offer is aimed at the 5* award which more or less requires you to have the 4* beforehand. Much of my motivation for getting my 4* done was so that I could start working on 5* stuff, rather than particularly wanting the award.

That said, much of the content of the leadership awards is stuff that anyone operating independently in that environment ought to have some competence with - personal paddling skills are an important part of the awards as is deciding where to go, navigating and managing any problems. The actual "operating with unknown clients" stuff is a fairly small part of it.
Oh well, I shall just keep paddling on and enjoying myself!!
That sounds like a good plan!

robhorton
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by robhorton » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:25 am

I see they've taken the opportunity to increase the registration fee to £39 and require all registrants to be BC members (previously I think it was about £12.50 for members and £25 for non-members).

ian johnston
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by ian johnston » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:43 pm

Rainshine wrote:
Oh well, I shall just keep paddling on and enjoying myself!!
Good plan.... these are the only "stars" that matter in our paddling group!.....

:o)


Image

Rainshine
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Rainshine » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:12 am

rowlandW wrote:I can't help thinking that it would a lot more logical to have a Star Awards 1-5 system based purely on personal paddling and skills in the appropriate grades of water, weather and conditions, with Leadership Awards (Basic, Moderate, Advanced?) as separate bolt-ons. Lots of people I know want the knowledge of where they sit in a graduated personal skills progression but would rather have teeth pulled without anaesthetic than go anywhere near a leader role. And there's nothing wrong with that.

I couldn't agree more. That's what most people I know would like to see too. I've done my 4* training and the required coastal nav course but I have absolutely no desire to paddle in a leadership role so I have no plans to do an assessment. I still want to keep improving my technical paddling skills because I get a massive amount of personal enjoyment from doing that purely for its own sake. And that's quite apart from all of the other obvious good reasons there are for being as technically skilled and competent as possible. I also agree that the leadership aspects are important as part of that technical skill-set. By modularising the awards so that leadership aspects became bolt-ons in the same way as the safety and navigation/planning courses currently are, it would have given maximum flexibility and allowed everyone to pick and choose what suited their own interests, needs and circumstances.

Fortunately there are some excellent coaches out there who will continue to up-skill me based on my own specific needs regardless of the BCU system. That won't be the case for all commercial providers though.

Anyway, a simply magnificent paddle in excellent company out to a fabulous location with arches,caves, rock-hopping, nosy big seals and literally thousands of sea birds was had yesterday with not a single thought of the BCU, leadership or stars!!! Bliss!!

jmmoxon
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by jmmoxon » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:21 pm

What were 4 & 5 star are now found here:
https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/coac ... ter-leader

Mike
http://kayakworldguide.forums-free.com Links to websites with info on white water, touring, sea & surf.

AllanC
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by AllanC » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:22 pm

I re-sat my 4* training three weeks ago, and the changes to the 4* as was wasn't mentioned on the course. I'd heard through instructor friends that changes were proposed but I hadn't heard exactly what was going to happen. I did ask but nobody on the course told me what changes were coming and when. For context I finished the course on the Wednesday and this thread started on the following Monday. For those in the know, did this come suddenly or would my provider have known the change was imminent? Don't worry I'll be contacting them for clarification myself but I'm currently dischuffed with my provider.

My feedback on the course was that I was basically ready for assessment, but having read the links, I'm now unsure what assessment to sit/apply for. Is it 4* touring leader, Sea Kayak leader, or there's mention on this thread about moderate water leader but I can't find a specific award with that name on the website, just an umbrella term covering 6 totally different awards but including the above 2.
The Sea Kayak leader award says 3* star is the appropriate level to train for the award, and the 4* leader blurb says I now need FSRT. I'm doing my awards both to help my club out, as we are struggling for coaches/leaders, but mainly for my own satisfaction as I find the structure of awards/tickets best for my own improvement. So do I need to take a step backwards technically for the Sea kayak leader and I guess maybe another specific training course, or another different course for the 4*?

Apologies for the minor rant and thanks in advance for clearing this up for me.
Allan Cadenhead

Dyllon
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Dyllon » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:13 pm

Allan,

If you are ready for 4* Sea, then you are ready for Sea Kayak Leader. All course documentation is exactly the same other than that 4* has been cut and Sea Kayak Leader has been pasted. See this page http://canoescotland.org/courses-traini ... hip-awards.

All prerequisites are the same.

I understand that the only difference of significant is an increase in registration fee, as referred to above.

R

Chris McDaid
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Chris McDaid » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:53 pm

Dunno what all the fuss is about. I dont understand the fixation with the bits of paper. National Governing bodies aka quangos are as relevant to recreational sea kayaking as Donald Trump is to race relations. Do you really need a piece of paper to prove what your abilities are? The restrictions detailed in the lowest leadership award are completely irrelevant to what we do. Trust your own ability and that of your peers, and be safe. What did the sea kayaking community do BEFORE the BCU et al came into being? Do we need an NGB? Unless you're competitive then I'd say we don't. It's a money racket and a method of trying to exercise some control. Unless the NGB's make a concerted effort to be relevant to recreational as well as competitive paddlers and engage with the majority of their membership, then paddlers will continue to drift away from them and form their own peer groups. JUST GO PADDLING :-)

Cheers,
Chris
Point65NXP18Classic/WS Tempest170/Sipre Marlin

john.ruston
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by john.ruston » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:07 pm

Well said. Its about time this was clearly stated.
Agree with Chris' views or not its clear that more and more of the sea touring fraternity are unhappy that some folks have set themselves up to govern over the rest of us.

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Kate D
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Re: 4* out. 'Paddlesport leader' in.

Post by Kate D » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:13 pm

In Reply to AllanC, the only change that affects you is that the 4* sea kayak award is now called sea kayak leader. Your training course is valid for the full 3 years. When you are ready for assessment you will do a 'sea kayak leader' assessment rather than a 4* sea assessment. The awards are the same, the syllabus is the same, the assessors are the same and the standard required is the same. The only change is the name of the award. No need to repeat any training or take a step back. Hope this is clear. These changes have been known about for some time and your course provider could have made this clear to you.

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