Is this a sea kayak?

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tg
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Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:28 am

Just curious about peeps opinions...


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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by twopigs » Mon Aug 17, 2015 12:35 pm

Looks like a Klepper folding kayak with added sail and outriggers ....

A good day is a day on the water!
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Jim » Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:15 pm

Seaworthy I should think, but it appears to have been misappropriated to use as the main hull of a sailing trimaran. :-)

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by mduncombe » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:45 pm

IS THIS A SEA KAYAK?
First you need to define what a sea kayak is and I suspect you will have varying definitions depending on who you ask.

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:47 pm

Jim wrote:Seaworthy I should think, but it appears to have been misappropriated to use as the main hull of a sailing trimaran. :-)
Seaworthy so far Jim. bF5 with a short choppy sea of 2ft. I know that's not like a 6ft ocean swell but I'm confident that would'nt phase this rig. I had this surfing on small wind driven chop and the ama's served to self correct and keep me on the waves. Not sure what might happen in steep breaking roller tho.

twopigs wrote:Looks like a Klepper folding kayak with added sail and outriggers ....

A good day is a day on the water!
Love the sentiment twopigs.

The boat is a Wayland AmazonExp (a Polish copy of the Aerius II, as you observed), and the rig is a Balogh BOSS outrigger system with their 32 sq ft battoned sail. I've had the boat for 7 years or so and it get's used as the "family and friends' " boat.
The sail rig fully demounts in 10 or 15 minutes, and of course the boat does too. Although this is a fair old heft at 50kgs all in I figure that's not too far off a fibreglass double, and might be an option for those interested in sailing double (or tandem) kayaks.

Tim
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:21 pm

mduncombe wrote:
IS THIS A SEA KAYAK?
First you need to define what a sea kayak is and I suspect you will have varying definitions depending on who you ask.
But this is a sea kayak.. err.. right?

Image

I know that elsewhere the phrase 'true sea kayak' is used, and as has been said here before, sea kayaking is a broad church. I'll confess a broader interest in smallcraft which has stemmed from my true sea kayaking experience. I'm only aware of two other rigs like this in the UK (surely there must be more), and one of those is used my a member of what could be described as the trueist of true sea kayak groups in the UK. These kind of things appear to be more popular on the continent and in the USA. Just thought I'd share this new(ish) aspect of my paddling.
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by MikeB » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:37 pm

I would say that is indeed a sea kayak. It is capable of journeying safely on the sea, has cargo carrying capacity, is propelled by a double bladed paddle, has a covered deck and a cockpit in which the paddler sits and which is capable of being sealed by a spray deck.

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by JB-NL » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:50 am

I would say every vessel is as seaworthy as its crew....

For some years ago, there was a guy from Finland, that did some paddling around the Nordkapp in folding kayak with an outrigger.
Had some movies on his website. but hard to retrieve..

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:39 pm

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No point in asking me...

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Wed Aug 19, 2015 5:50 pm

Douglas Wilcox wrote: No point in asking me...

Douglas
I know.. :-)

Interestingly I was re reading some previous threads about the FE Sails..

Of course, I'm looking at my hardshells in a slightly different way now.

Tim
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Mike Mayberry » Thu Aug 20, 2015 9:27 am

MikeB wrote:I would say that is indeed a sea kayak. It is capable of journeying safely on the sea, has cargo carrying capacity, is propelled by a double bladed paddle, has a covered deck and a cockpit in which the paddler sits and which is capable of being sealed by a spray deck.

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by norb » Sat Aug 22, 2015 5:28 pm

Any kayak with added sail is no longer anymore a kayak.
Its a sailing boat.
Kayak is propelled by a paddle.
Sea kayak on sail is a sailing boat .
obviously

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by ian johnston » Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:04 am

norb wrote:Any kayak with added sail is no longer anymore a kayak.
Its a sailing boat.
Kayak is propelled by a paddle.
Sea kayak on sail is a sailing boat .
obviously
Ah, OK....... so these are sea kayaks...

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..but now they're not?......

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sea kayak being propelled by paddle - quite vigourously!

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And the journey http://www.nwp.co.uk/9781903238998 made by Alastair Dunnett and Seumas Adam in 1934 should really be called "The Sailing Boat Boys" ?

I think Mike has pretty much nailed a definition here:
MikeB wrote:I would say that is indeed a sea kayak. It is capable of journeying safely on the sea, has cargo carrying capacity, is propelled by a double bladed paddle, has a covered deck and a cockpit in which the paddler sits and which is capable of being sealed by a spray deck.

Mike

:o)
Kind Regards

Ian

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:08 am

Greetings Norb,

Norb>
Any kayak with added sail is no longer anymore a kayak.
Its a sailing boat.
Kayak is propelled by a paddle.
Sea kayak on sail is a sailing boat .
obviously
Do you ever catch the tides? Do you ever catch a wave? What is different about catching the wind?

Paddle sailing is not just sitting there, you paddle just as before without the sail except when going downwind and wave when you paddle even harder. That is because you can catch fast open water waves when paddle sailing that you can't catch by paddling alone.

Image

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To use your own word..."Obviously" you are wrong. Recreational sea kayaking was born in the UK in the mid 19th century and grew throughout Europe, North America and Australasia thanks to the writings of John MacGregor and the development of the "Rob Roy". It was propelled by a paddle and a sail.

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Rob Roy mid 19th century

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Mid 20th century, north west Scotland

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Early 21st century Australian rig.

Best wishes, Douglas :o)

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:00 pm

I have to say I found paddling to be by far the best way of controlling the aforementioned craft. So much so that I dispensed with the rudder completely. The rudder on these bag-boats can be a rather fussy affair, all string and foot paddles. I found I was paddling up to sailing speeds and using stern rudders, in bF5, with no problem.

Posting the McGregor link..

https://archive.org/stream/johnmacgrego ... t_djvu.txt

.. for reference.

Tim
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by norb » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:52 pm

Hi Douglas
Modern sea kayak can covered long distances easily.
Personally if I have sail I fell like cheating on myself my stamina my paddling ability so Im not going to have one.
Sadly I notice few times when kayakers go for sail when loosing ability to forward paddling .
Im to young for it :)
Maybe when I get retired

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by MikeB » Thu Aug 27, 2015 6:29 pm

I don't sail - but I paddle with folk who do. In each case, they comment that paddle sailing is actually harder work than just paddling - - -

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:11 am

MikeB wrote:I don't sail - but I paddle with folk who do. In each case, they comment that paddle sailing is actually harder work than just paddling - - -
That's a hard one for me to call Mike. The outfit posted has a leeboard and outriggers. Once I'm on the wind it's a doddle. I'm not sure that would be the case with an FE, or similar, set up. Off the water it's a lot of weight to deal with but on the water it will nip along at yacht speeds. Indeed I get to the point where paddling is pointless as the boat is outpacing my stroke. Then it's just a question of steering which actually does require quite a bit of effort. I have a local paddle that I have done countless times. In my standard sea kayak the return leg, tidal assist with a following wind, takes around 40mins, in this outfit I did the same in around 15.

Tim
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by EK Sydney » Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:22 am

Im to young for it :)
Maybe when I get retired
Norb, you're right mate. Here's how us retired blokes use sails when the wind gets up. The bloke with the silly hat & white beard is a particularly old fogie.


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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:52 pm

Hello again Norb,

I like having fun in all sorts of ways on the water. Being retired means that although it is a weekday, I have just come in from a windsurfing session on the Solway in F5-6 wind over tide conditions followed by a wild swim in the breakers. Excellent fun.
Modern sea kayak can covered long distances easily.
Personally if I have sail I fell like cheating on myself my stamina my paddling ability so Im not going to have one.
Sadly I notice few times when kayakers go for sail when loosing ability to forward paddling .
Im to young for it :)
Maybe when I get retired
What a strange concept that is: "Cheating".... in something like recreational sea kayaking that is done for fun???! One of the things I like about sea kayaking is that there are no rules so how can I cheat? I love new designs and developments so I delight in trying original boats like the Taran, Aries and Hammer, wing paddles, Greenland paddles even sails!
Im to young for it :)
Maybe when I get retired
Well you have me nailed right there. I am well into my seventh decade and have been retired four years. One of the things age has taught me is to keep an open mind, to never be afraid to try new things and above all to have fun. I look forward to drawing my pension on Tuesday.

Cheers,
Douglas

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by norb » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:03 pm

Hi Douglas
Douglas ouglas mean to be rude
Retired is for me a person who is not active anymore.
Maybe sail is lots of fun but at this point isn't for me.
Let's be honest
When I go for any open crossing or circumnavigation
I will not have any sail on kayak. Or in kayak like a folding one.
I don't see the reason having sail anyway. Maybe for fun.
I can covered distance on my boat over 100km in on long day even if water isnt flat and im not the fastest paddler.
Can't find the reason for sail but if you have some fun sailing
go for .
Have a great weekend paddle

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by norb » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:06 pm

Sorry guys
typing isn't easy on touchscreen :)

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by MikeB » Sun Aug 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Well, I was out today in the company of one person who had a sail. Downwind, he could, had he chosen to, have left us for dead. I'm beginning to see the possible benefits - - -

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:39 pm

Just in case any one (apart from norb) is not yet convinced that sails are integral to sea kayaking then the following may change your mind.

This book "Inuit Kayaks in Canada: A Review of Historical Records and Construction" by EY Arima has some interesting information about Inuit kayak sails which were often used for longer crossings.

Image
The book includes a figure (44) which shows a sail mounted much as a modern Australian sail such as the Flat Earth.

Image
It also has a photograph dating from 1927 showing a sail in action on an Inuit kayak. It has one mast mounted in a tube on one side of the bow, one batten and one sheet. It needed to be mounted by another kayaker but could be unmounted by lifting up with the paddle then recovering from the water by pulling on the sheet.

So to answer the original question
Is this a sea kayak?
A sea kayak with a sail is very much a sea kayak but a sea kayak without a sail is a bit like a paddler with only one arm.

Douglas

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by Jim » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:07 pm

Gus says if more than 6 kayaks with sails enter Oban Sea Kayak Race they will create a category for them....

Obviously less than 6 and you would feel that you had an unfair advantage over the rest of the field (except perhaps the skis).

I was looking at Brian's mast fitting on his Taran and having a chat about it - obviously he wasn't racing with it, but he said he was finding 1sqm a bit much and might cut down to 0.8 or 0.7 and try to get the sail lower to the deck. Even serious racers are now using sails in their recreational paddling!

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by tg » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:20 pm

I remember some time ago (probably really quite some time ago..) the idea of using a skeg seemed almost to be like "cheating" amongst some paddlers I used to go out with. They were more experienced sea paddlers' than I, at the time, and a great hoo-ha was made of edging and steering the "proper" way or "old fashioned way" (I'm not di'ssing these techniques by the way!). As it turned out strap-on skegs were consequently discovered to have been used by the Inuit. Lo and behold, the same is now being found with sails. Just goes to show..! I had a lecturer in petrol engine technology once say that, as far as cylinder configurations was concerned you could bet that everything had been tried by the 1930's and the useless ones eliminated, the rest was down to design, materials and application. Essentially, whatever you're thinking, is probably not new.

For me one of the problems of defining some of these ancient activities; climbing, surfing, kayaking etc as "sport" is that there is a risk that minds get locked into the "rules of the game" and imagination can become dulled.

I could go onto to bore about the use of signal kites, wooden gp's as outriggers but I'd suggest this might represent a new topic along the lines of "traditional kayaking techniques"........ aaagh!

Thanks for posting those images Douglas; duly nicked for my next lil' project.
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by ruralweb » Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:56 pm

I've just fitted a FE sail to my Epic V6 surf ski which is really a sea kayak with a ski bucket seat - even though I sail whenever possible I would not say Ive lost my ability to paddle. Infact my paddling has improved because I get out more, go further and paddle in much stronger winds than normal sea kayakers.
Mal

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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by JB-NL » Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:17 am

Douglas Wilcox wrote:Just in case any one (apart from norb) is not yet convinced that sails are integral to sea kayaking then the following may change your mind.

This book "Inuit Kayaks in Canada: A Review of Historical Records and Construction" by EY Arima has some interesting information about Inuit kayak sails which were often used for longer crossings.

Image
The book includes a figure (44) which shows a sail mounted much as a modern Australian sail such as the Flat Earth.

Image
It also has a photograph dating from 1927 showing a sail in action on an Inuit kayak. It has one mast mounted in a tube on one side of the bow, one batten and one sheet. It needed to be mounted by another kayaker but could be unmounted by lifting up with the paddle then recovering from the water by pulling on the sheet.

So to answer the original question
Is this a sea kayak?
A sea kayak with a sail is very much a sea kayak but a sea kayak without a sail is a bit like a paddler with only one arm.

Douglas
And for other Umiaks from the Inuit:

https://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=htt ... FAod0nUMjw

JB
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by wayland_uk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:53 pm

All our wooden framed folding kayaks come ready fitted with mast holders, and Klepper have had the same thing for many years. There is a small kayak/canoe sailing club in the UK, and quite a lot of folks in Germany go kayak sailing.

There are two types - those who set out to sail and those who set out to paddle. Those who set out to paddle would mainly use a downwind sail as a back-up or have fun whizzing off at a speed whenever the wind is favourable. Those who set out to sail, will pretty much do just like any sailor would do, use an upwind sail and tack.
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Re: Is this a sea kayak?

Post by flat earth sails » Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:23 am

Jim wrote:Gus says if more than 6 kayaks with sails enter Oban Sea Kayak Race they will create a category for them....

Obviously less than 6 and you would feel that you had an unfair advantage over the rest of the field (except perhaps the skis).

I was looking at Brian's mast fitting on his Taran and having a chat about it - obviously he wasn't racing with it, but he said he was finding 1sqm a bit much and might cut down to 0.8 or 0.7 and try to get the sail lower to the deck. Even serious racers are now using sails in their recreational paddling!
We have a 27km race each year for the local life saving club, it now has six clases, one of which is expadition sea kayak , sea kayak with sail no more than 1m no lee bord no sponsons. The class is growing every year and next year ther might be sume serious racing involved if we get more than four boats! But its grate for a sea kayak to finish with the ski class.

Paddle sailing isent always a soft option, we may cover more miles but it can be just as tiaring , but with a biger reword on big trips.
The reberth of modern kayak sailing in the late 70 s is put down to the Tasmanians, ther costline has sume stuning streches of coast with few places to land, sails increased ther reach and enabeld some grate exploring, I think with the onset of newer designd fast touring kayaks, beter paddling ability by most paddlers through beter tecneke traning that some realy grate trips are more aceavebal . Looking at EKs vidio that hole expadition posably woldent have hapend if it wernt for a modern aproch to expaditions. Also note the one class aproch, same kayaks, same wing paddles and same sails. This equels the ability to stay together, move faster on the water , erlier this year three of us did a trip up the Australian coast for around 400km, sume of the days wher big and I think only aceavabel with this resapy I cant wait to see what hapens over the next decade or two of our sport.

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