Paddle dilemma/durability

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:44 pm

Hi guys I currently paddle with a lendal kinetic cf on 215-220 varilock cranks. I find this a decent paddle but the cranks are slightly too close together for my optimum comfort and the blades feel a little small and start to slip when I really start to push on. Also the shaft diameter seems smaller and less comfortable than my WW Werner paddle foam core Sho-gun.

My search for a new paddle (all 220cm cranks) has given me a few options,

Werner ikelos foam core, Werner Correyvrecken in glass or full carbon or the AT Oracle also available in glass or carbon.

I have been told the Werner foam core touring blades are a lot less durable than the WW equivalents lighter lay up and may puncture easy, my WW foam core has been very good. I didn't like the amount of flex in the glass Werner blade it Flexed a lot more than the glass AT Oracle although the Oracle is a smaller blade.Both Werner and AT all carbon were very stiff.

What are people's views on the durability of the 3 materials? Carbon, glass and foam core carbon? I thought foam core was the way to go as love my WW paddle but I've been put off by talk of fragile touring foam core don't like the fleet glass so that kind of leaves me with carbon but will it chip/wear more than bless?

The cranks on the AT felt different to the Werner ones I'm not sure how just different, the lendals are different to werners too in fairness.

The other thing is how good is the Werner locking joint? Does it wear? Is it solid? I didn't like the AT locking leaver it's ugly sticks out from the shaft and the screw looks like it will come loose and fall out at some point in its life. Lendal had the best locking mechanism ever!

Any other decent blades I've overlooked?

Thanks in advance for the help Simon

dhkayaking
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:30 pm
Location: Ireland- West Coast

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by dhkayaking » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:02 pm

Hi Simon,

I have Werner Shuna, carnon bent shaft and glass blades. I really like them and they take plenty of abuse with little sign of wear. To be fair even doing a lot of rock hopping you will never abuse sea paddles like on a river. This construction is bomber and so is the joining system.The amount of flex is minimal.For comparison- I paddle with full carbon wings daily training in k1 and ski.
I was sent a set of the Oracle to try. They are as you say different to the Werner. The build quality is good but the lock in the middle is cheap and tey flex more.

I have reviewed both on my blog you can find the link below.

But if I was choosing I would take the Werner. Good luck with your search.

David

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:37 pm

Great blog and good reviews glad I read them. I think I will bin off the idea of the Oracle I like to paddle with a high angle stroke when pushing on and don't like the idea of the flutter you experienced.

I feel I need to stick to the big blade Correyvreckean designs to give me an advantage over my Kinetic.

I noticed you talking about going for a shorter length, this seems to be a trend for sea paddles lately what height are you?

I think the werners are the way to go if I discount the foam cores for being too expensive and probably fragile (although I love my WW foam core) that leaves me with a choice of glass vs carbon obviously the glass are cheaper and more flexible but is the wear between glass and carbon similar? Is the carbon worth extra over the glass?

Simon

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13889
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Jim » Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:14 am

Never had glass and solid carbon blades from the same manufacturer, but my Lendal Carbon blades have always worn more slowly than my old Werner glass blades.

Foam sandwich blades used to be a bit vulnerable if you gave them a hard knock on the edge they could delaminate. I can't imagine this is an issue for sea paddles, and it may be that manufacturers have refined their processes so the cored paddles are better bonded now? (I am thinking it is nearly 20 years since I saw a delaminated foam core paddle?)

If you have a high angle paddle stroke you will want a shorter paddle to make best use of it - the reason lengths have reduced is because people are moving to high angle style paddling. You don't want to go as short as a modern WW paddle though.

There are plenty of other manufacturers to choose from, not so long ago people were raving about epic paddles here....

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:46 am

Jim I find I still high angle stroke with my sea paddle at 220cm I'm tall at 6'5" so maybe 220cm is not a long paddle for my height? Find the stroke rate too high if I set the varilock to 215 on my kinetics. Il get my buddies to check how high my non blade in water hand is when I'm paddling it's possible it's too high. I paddle quite narrow boats a Nordkapp HM and an Anas (love the classics)

MY WW paddle is 200cm which probably longer than the average paddler too.

Simon

User avatar
Mr Ed
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:51 pm
Been thanked: 6 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Mr Ed » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:32 am

I'm 6'4" and paddle with a 215 Ikelos and 215 Cyprus.

The question of height I find isn't as important as height of torso. I have reasonably long legs so my torso might be the same height as someone shorter so it might be a good idea to see what other people of similar torso size paddle.

In the past i've used a Lendal 215 crank shaft kinetic 700s. I should have switched to Werners earlier. My cadence and technique massively improved after the switch.

IMHO people paddle blades that are too big. I like my Ikelos for tideracing but i've developed some shoulder rotator cuff issues recently as i've been using them too much and too hard. The cyprus is a much more forgiving paddle and will be my main go to blade for everything apart from "whitewater" sea kayaking for the forseable future. In terms of longevity the blades are holding up ok but you wouldn't want them coming into contact with rock too often. Certain batches of Werners also seem to have a problem with the joint in the middle and i've heard and seen of several paddles shearing here (all replaced under warranty).

I can't imagine paddling with a 220. My friend had a 225 corryvreckan and that was just a shoulder killer. Way too much.

So to summarise- i'd consider going down a blade size and reducing the length but then again you might be a body builder with 4 ft wide shoulders!

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13889
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Jim » Wed Jul 15, 2015 11:36 am

If you are using asymmetric paddles, the easiest check is to see how the blade enters the water, if the near corner is entering before the far corner you are using the blade at a lower angle than it was designed for. If the far corner enters before the near corner you are using it at a higher angle than it was designed for. If both corners go in together, you stroke angle is matched you your blade and shaft length.

Which introduces an often overlooked consideration - blade geometry. Many blades intended for touring are designed for a low angle of entry, so if you use them with a high angle stroke you won't get the best out of them on the catch.

The Kinetic touring blade I use on the sea is designed for a lower angle than the Kinetic Xti blades I use on WW, but the inner corner is much more rounded so it works effectively over a bigger range of angles (or perhaps it would be more accurate to say there isn't an angle that gives significantly better catch due to the rounded corner).

My canoe paddles are square tipped, I reach right over the boat to try and get a vertical shaft on catch and through the stroke which is much better for keeping in a straight line with single blade, and achievable when kneeling. Such a high angle is not practical in a kayak.

It is well worth getting out in the boat on flat water and experimenting with the best way to reach forward for the catch whilst leaving the full amount of rotation for the stroke, but without having to stretch as that will be tiring over distance.

I don't know if my technique is good or just adequate, but for me, high angle kayak paddling is when my top hand pushes straight forward from in front of my face, low angle it is pushing more from in line with the same side shoulder. I might start joining our sprint section on the canal to get some coaching in forward paddling....

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:08 pm

4x4maddog wrote:
The other thing is how good is the Werner locking joint? Does it wear? Is it solid? I didn't like the AT locking leaver it's ugly sticks out from the shaft and the screw looks like it will come loose and fall out at some point in its life. Lendal had the best locking mechanism ever!

Any other decent blades I've overlooked?

Thanks in advance for the help Simon
There are a few tales here of problems with Werner joints, mainly in the context of them refusing to come apart. This generally comes down to a lack of maintenance, usually sand and/or salt having got into them. IIRC they have been known to wear as well, but again that may be a maintenance issue. As noted earlier, there are also tales of breakage. But again as noted earlier, maybe this was a bad batch.

The Lendal / Celtic Paddles Padlok system really is just superb, and was the main reason I reverted to them after a brief spell with an Epic. (I wrote a review of the Epics - http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/al ... reviews_13 - which I note I must update as Knoydart no longer exist - - ).

I don't claim to be any form of expert on paddle technique, but I liked them very much indeed and only sold them on because I didn't like the big centre joint. The person who bought them - and that was nearly 10 years ago now - still uses them and likes them very much. It might be worth trying whatever the current Epic offerings are.

I tried various Werners over the years and just couldn't get on with them at all. I found some models had a nasty "catch" as the blade left the water. Now, this was probably bad technique on my behalf, but several others who have much better technique than I do have made similar comments. Others, however, have never reported the same issue and just love them.

I can only add that I'm 6'2" - long torso - and now use 220 cranked, carbon Kinetics. I also have a set of Variloks and occasionally use them at 215 and have to admit I do quite like the shorter length. All this said, I doubt I'm at your level of overall fitness and most probably not at your level of technique.

My very first paddle was something like 225! With the massive Nordkapp (or maybe they were Powermaster) blades. I suspect I was badly advised at the time, but equally that was back in the day when the standard way to measure paddle length relative to one's height was to stand with arm raised and curl fingers over the top of the blade. How times change. Moving down a blade size was a massive help to being able to paddle for any length of time. All that said, I paddle with a pal who is significantly shorter than I am but who uses the big blades - he is however also a marathon paddler and is on the water training most days. I'm not, and aren't.

How about getting some input from a decent coach who was sufficiently informed to be able to comment objectively?

dhkayaking
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:30 pm
Location: Ireland- West Coast

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by dhkayaking » Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:43 pm

4x4maddog wrote:Great blog and good reviews glad I read them. I think I will bin off the idea of the Oracle I like to paddle with a high angle stroke when pushing on and don't like the idea of the flutter you experienced.

I feel I need to stick to the big blade Correyvreckean designs to give me an advantage over my Kinetic.

I noticed you talking about going for a shorter length, this seems to be a trend for sea paddles lately what height are you?

I think the werners are the way to go if I discount the foam cores for being too expensive and probably fragile (although I love my WW foam core) that leaves me with a choice of glass vs carbon obviously the glass are cheaper and more flexible but is the wear between glass and carbon similar? Is the carbon worth extra over the glass?

Simon
Hi Simon,

Thanks, Im glad you found the reviews helpful. I personally use Werner powerhouse Carbon on whitewater and surfing. They are very tough and do last longer than glass. But like I said earlier, blades do not get as much abuse in the sea and some flex is not a bad thing. Thats why I went for glass Shuna. If you fancy coughing up the cash go for the carbon.

Re. Length. I am on 5'7 and paddle with 215 sea paddles. I prefer 210 or even my river paddles 197 when surfing and playing around the rocks. I will go 210 for my next set of sea paddles.
If you are aware of your cadence/stroke rate Im sure you will figure out the best length for you.

David

User avatar
MYSSAK
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: London
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 11 times
Contact:

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MYSSAK » Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:42 pm

4x4maddog wrote:
Any other decent blades I've overlooked?
Mitchell Blades
Vertical Element
Epic
Galasport
Raab Paddles
Lettmann

Just to name few...

Bod Bagby
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:42 am

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Bod Bagby » Thu Jul 16, 2015 2:50 pm

I would demo a set of the Werner Foam Cores (sea). Then you will know that you just have to buy them! You already know that you like the (neutral?) cranks and if you don't damage the WW ones, you are unlikely to trash the sea ones. They are more gentle but so is the environment in terms of puncturing blades.

I personally prefer the connections on Epics and Lendals, as they have variable length which gives options for rock hopping or surfing compared to pressing on. My favourite is the Epic Active Touring but it is very personal.

ruralweb
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:14 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by ruralweb » Thu Jul 16, 2015 3:46 pm

I've a Werner Cyprus crank full carbon foam core 210 that I'm putting on ebay in a couple of weeks but I'm open to offers before then.
Mal

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 43 times
Contact:

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:39 pm

Simon, I too am selling my Werner crank foam core Cyprus 210 paddles. Maybe that is all you need to know.

Douglas

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:56 pm

Interesting. My partner's first "serious" sea paddles were Werners - which got relegated to spares when she discovered Lendals. We then found another virtually new pair for sale here, which she bought to replace the Werners. In fairness, they sold quickly so I guess there are those who like them - and those who don't. Mike

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Thu Jul 16, 2015 8:38 pm

Thanks for the offer guys but 210cm too short and the Cyprus blades not really what I'm looking for.

Think it can be hard to get a paddle you like maybe that's why them come up for sale? Too stiff or powerful for some people too small maybe for others or length or maybe they are not very good.

Had a decent look at my forward paddling stroke last night and did abit of lenth adjustment and paddle swapping with my buddy's.

220cm definitely fits lenth wise find my cadence at 215cm too high, swapped with one friend who has full carbon kinetic tours on vari lock 210-215 and they felt ridiculously small like a WW paddle short fast strokes and had to PLF when we had a wee race. Interestingly he normally paddles with them at 210cm but preferred the extra length of my paddle he then adjusted his own up to 215 which seemed to be the sweet spot for himself. I then swapped with my other friend who has 220cm Lendal Nordkapp paddle instantly felt the bigger blade and extra power and also extra support in braces I could really lean on it. He joked that it felt like he had a paddle shaft with no blades when he swapped to the Kinetic paddle. Would of been interesting to try the big Nordkapp blades at 215 but that wasn't an option. I did like the power on them and didn't feel it was too much. That might change after a full day of paddling a loaded boat but just because you have the power available you don't have to pull hard on it all the time.

Anyone have any experience with the new lendal Celtic paddles? Are they as good as the original lendal paddles? I'm not 100% sure who owns lendal or how good the products are these days.

My friends both paddle with a feather of 60deg my right wrist is now sore today from cocking my wrist last night!! I paddle on 30deg on my WW and sea paddles and find that comfortable even paddling all day.

Thanks for the replys guys lots to think about. I'm off to browse Celtic, lettman and VE blades online as my search continues, worry about wear reports on the Werner joins maybe the leaver lock system is better even if it's not flush.
Simon

ruralweb
Posts: 647
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:14 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by ruralweb » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:10 pm

I'm selling my werner because I now have an Epic Wing which I would suggest having a look at before deciding. My mate had a Corryvekan and got rid of it because it put too much strain on his shoulders. Wing paddles are far more efficient and put much less stress on your body - they take alot of getting used to but now a euro paddle just does not feel right so it's going.
Mal

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:19 pm

Lendal were bought by Nigel Dennis (of NDK / now http://www.seakayakinguk.com/ ) and the name was changed to Celtic Paddles. Whether the quality etc is the same I couldn't comment on, but certainly the Padlok is the same as it used to be. Looking at them in the likes of K/tek, I would suggest they seem to be up to the mark.

They offer that rather clunky "Lever lock" on some of the range. I don't like it at all.

The standard feather is 60 degrees - but of course they also build "Custom Paddles" to order, and the current adjustment system (if specified) will allow feather adjustment. I'd suggest phoning them rather than mailing as they are reported to not be especially responsive to email - - - - although things may have changed since I last got that feedback, some years ago. The website notes that "Standard feather is 60° for Sea and touring and can be adjusted between 0° and 90° on paddles with the SwitchLok system"

There were still, I believe, some Lendals available - certainly Sea Kayaking Scotland had some at the Show a year or so back - but these will be old stock I think, probably dating back to the less than glorious and thankfully brief involvement with Johnson Outdoors. An American company who bought the rights etc from Alastair Wilson who owned the original Lendal company in Ayrshire, and very nearly destroyed the brand.

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:30 pm

MikeB wrote:Lendal were bought by Nigel Dennis (of NDK / now http://www.seakayakinguk.com/ ) and the name was changed to Celtic Paddles. Whether the quality etc is the same I couldn't comment on, but certainly the Padlok is the same as it used to be. Looking at them in the likes of K/tek, I would suggest they seem to be up to the mark.

They offer that rather clunky "Lever lock" on some of the range. I don't like it at all.

The standard feather is 60 degrees - but of course they also build "Custom Paddles" to order, and the current adjustment system (if specified) will allow feather adjustment. I'd suggest phoning them rather than mailing as they are reported to not be especially responsive to email - - - - although things may have changed since I last got that feedback, some years ago. The website notes that "Standard feather is 60° for Sea and touring and can be adjusted between 0° and 90° on paddles with the SwitchLok system"

There were still, I believe, some Lendals available - certainly Sea Kayaking Scotland had some at the Show a year or so back - but these will be old stock I think, probably dating back to the less than glorious and thankfully brief involvement with Johnson Outdoors. An American company who bought the rights etc from Alastair Wilson who owned the original Lendal company in Ayrshire, and very nearly destroyed the brand.
Just sent Celtic an email (before reading your post about calling) they suggest they can pad out the shafts for big handed chimps like me on the website so I've asked about that and also the power difference between standard kinetics 700 to the kinetic 750 and the Nordkapp blades which the website suggests they can produce if you ask. So if asked lots of questions including crank spacing to see what they come back with.

Obviously I felt the difference between the Nordkapp and kinetic 700 blades last night but has anybody have experience of the 750 kinetic blade?

Do people have stron opinions on 4piece vs 2piece paddles? Assume 2 is lighter and less flex? 4 means if you damage a blade it's cheaper to replace.

I'm not a fan of these lever locks either but at least if you get wear you can tighten it unlike Werner system. The paddlok system is the best in my opinion.

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Thu Jul 16, 2015 9:49 pm

ruralweb wrote:I'm selling my werner because I now have an Epic Wing which I would suggest having a look at before deciding. My mate had a Corryvekan and got rid of it because it put too much strain on his shoulders. Wing paddles are far more efficient and put much less stress on your body - they take alot of getting used to but now a euro paddle just does not feel right so it's going.

I have used a wing for ten mins or so swapping with somebody who had one I did like it but not sure how it would work for all sea kayaking Rock hopping and all the fiddly strokes like draw strokes bow draws and rudders reversing out of caves etc. I did roll and brace with it though even tho the guy told me I wouldn't be able to roll with it.

Not sure my paddling buddies would like me to get a wing the Old Nordy HM is a fast boat to keep up with even with euro blades

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:06 pm

4x4maddog wrote:
Do people have stron opinions on 4piece vs 2piece paddles? Assume 2 is lighter and less flex? 4 means if you damage a blade it's cheaper to replace.

I'm not a fan of these lever locks either but at least if you get wear you can tighten it unlike Werner system. The paddlok system is the best in my opinion.
Flex / weight is not an issue with a 4 piece - as far as I can tell anyway, having had both a 2 piece and now two 4 piece sets. And yes, the flexibility in case of damage is a benefit. There is a weight downside, but so minimal as to be not worth considering against the overall benefit.

As far as I'm concerned, the Padlok is unbeatable - but (and I say this advisably) they do need a little maintenance. My recommendation is to strip them on receipt, and Coppaslip the grub screw. This will prevent problems in the future as they are just ordinary steel and will corrode if not looked after! Repeat every 5 years or so!

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Thu Jul 16, 2015 11:11 pm

MikeB wrote:
4x4maddog wrote:
Do people have stron opinions on 4piece vs 2piece paddles? Assume 2 is lighter and less flex? 4 means if you damage a blade it's cheaper to replace.

I'm not a fan of these lever locks either but at least if you get wear you can tighten it unlike Werner system. The paddlok system is the best in my opinion.
Flex / weight is not an issue with a 4 piece - as far as I can tell anyway, having had both a 2 piece and now two 4 piece sets. And yes, the flexibility in case of damage is a benefit. There is a weight downside, but so minimal as to be not worth considering against the overall benefit.

As far as I'm concerned, the Padlok is unbeatable - but (and I say this advisably) they do need a little maintenance. My recommendation is to strip them on receipt, and Coppaslip the grub screw. This will prevent problems in the future as they are just ordinary steel and will corrode if not looked after! Repeat every 5 years or so!
Never done that with my ones feeling guilty now haha I do thoroughly rinse them after every use.

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13889
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 41 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Jim » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:01 am

I've been trying to dodge the questions of quality and service from Celtic paddles, but sooner or later someone was bound to ask directly.

James responded quite promptly to my email, and advised that they are selling a lot of paddles through ebay at the moment (the website is still pretty confusing so I'm guessing ebay might actually be the preferred outlet?), and that they were having a bit of sale. I think I did complete my order by phone, I'm sure i spoke to him.

Unfortunately they had no stock of Mystik blades (which is what I had on the paddle I had just broken, on a dodgy Corsican boulder garden -the paddle was at least 10 years old), but had Kinetic XTi blades in carbon composite, which is a combination Alistair didn't used to offer (I have yet to discover if there was a good technical reason or if there was no demand/no mould), and what I was originally going to order when I got the Mystiks, needless to say I chose the Kinetic XTi, custom configured on modified crank G1F shaft at 60 degree feather. There is supposed to be a small surcharge for custom configuration, but the price quoted was about 2/3 of what I seemed to think I paid 10 years ago, so I was pretty happy.

To continue on the service front, a friend ordered a left handed Gremlin children's paddle from James just last week. When it arrived it was a right hander, James said no problem, I'll send a left out, don't bother to send the right back, donate to a local kids organization or something. Next day James called him, to let him know the next paddle was going to be right because there was another mix up in dispatch, but not to send that one back either, but there was definitely a left on its way. So my friends lad got his left handed paddle, and his club have now got 2 right handed kids paddles FOC. I think it was next day delivery each time so all 3 paddles must have arrived before the weekend.

So customer service is good.

Quality, well I'd like to see more examples. One of my blades has an area where the cloth weave has been pulled out of line during layup - as an ex-laminator myself I don't like to see this, and wouldn't have let it go out of the factory (pretty sure neither Alastair or Nick would have let it leave the Prestwick factory). As an engineer, I can't see that it is going to make any noticeable difference to the strength of the blade, and since I got a pretty hefty discount I decided not to mention it. Inevitably though, someone was going to ask, and that's all I've got to go on.....

Would I buy another one?
Well that kind of depends how well it lasts, I got over 10 years out of my last one in the same construction from Prestwick so I don't expect to need to, and if it fails much sooner, unless I did something exceptionally daft (yes OK snapping a shaft over my chest in Corsica was high on the daft scale) I might have second thoughts.

But, I have an awful lot of other paddles in 4-piece paddlok configuration and I will almost certainly buy more of them from Celtic if/when I need them. I always had a 4-piece nearly identical to my one piece, but now I have Kinetic XTi blades on the one piece, I can see I will at least end up buying a set of 4-piece blades the same at some point.....

My next paddle purchase though, is likely to be a Streamlyte polo paddle, or perhaps a C1 paddle.

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:17 am

4x4maddog wrote:
MikeB wrote: - but (and I say this advisably) they do need a little maintenance. My recommendation is to strip them on receipt, and Coppaslip the grub screw. This will prevent problems in the future as they are just ordinary steel and will corrode if not looked after! Repeat every 5 years or so!
Never done that with my ones feeling guilty now haha I do thoroughly rinse them after every use.
Not so much of an issue with the centre button as it's in constant use and seldom gets immersed. But as most people seldom actually strip the 4 piece down to its component parts, (all of ours are essentially kept in "2 part configuration") the blade spigot buttons (which are also constantly being immersed in salt water of course) are more susceptible to corrosion. After a year, one of mine was a little stiff - the other was a complete barsteward to release! Both our "spares", which of course seldom get exercised, were suffering corrosion on all the buttons.

It's easy to check - just see how easily the screw can be turned using the key. If they don't run smoothly, then they need fettling.

If you are going to strip the buttons to get the grub screw out, as the assembly comes out of the shaft, be very sure to hold it together. There's a spring in there (which also corrodes) and it has a nasty tendency to ping out and provides hours of fun finding it, and the top half of the assembly !

A Top Tip is to take it out with the end of the shaft inside a plastic bag so all the bits don't go missing. Or at least disassemble the lock inside a bag when you've removed it from the shaft by holding it together as it comes out. There is a very small, round, metal pad in the base, onto which the grub screw presses. It can also drop out, so go canny when you have the assembly apart.

Spraying anything like WD40 or similar into the complete assembly isn't a good idea - it doesn't get into the threads of the grub screw, but does get everywhere else and will just attract grit where it isn't wanted.

User avatar
active4seasons
Posts: 517
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 10:19 pm
Location: Berwick, North Northumberland
Contact:

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by active4seasons » Fri Jul 17, 2015 11:00 am

Hi Simon,

I have a very nice pair of VE (Vertical Element) Explorer cranks and they are bomb proof. I have tried to break them on many rocks (don't ask or look at my Facebook page as it might give away the reasons I hit rocks!) The paddle is fairly heavy at 1200gms but the glass blades and carbon shaft are incredibly strong. I would recommend giving them a go and they can be made to measure to some extent so give Stu a ring to discuss options.

The shaft has a different kind of index than the Werner and others and I find it more comfortable especially when I am paddling hard, into the wind for example, as it is flattish and fits perfectly into the fingers so you dont have to hold the paddle to hard!

I also have a Werner corryvreckan (which is a replacement for a broken joint ((along with 2 of my mates paddles)) and it has worn so it is now glued permanently!) and so and a Lendal kinetic too but always reach for the VE these days.
Developing Desire for Adventure!

User avatar
Douglas Wilcox
Posts: 3622
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 1:31 pm
Location: Glasgow
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 43 times
Contact:

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Jul 17, 2015 12:04 pm

Hi Simon, since you enjoy paddling with the Lendal Nordkapp blade you are obviously a strong paddler and since the Cyprus blade is much smaller than the Nordkapp it's probably too small for you.

Image
A blade of similar size to the Nordkapp, which you should try is the VE Explorer Aircore (CF) large pictured below with the smaller Cyprus.

Image

The Aircore blade is very light and has strong edges. The face and back of the blade is also very strong unlike the Cyprus which is prone to dents and punctures on the face and back.

Like a foam core blade, the VE aircore blade is buoyant which a lot of people now like. I now use the VE Aircore large instead of my non buoyant Lendal Carbon Nordkapp in surf and for paddle sailing, though for me it is too big for touring.


I did a test of this paddle and its smaller bladed sibling in Ocean Paddler recently.

VE have a lot of choices in shafts. You can have straight or cranked and like Werner they also offer the option of indexing both sides for those who like paddling with low feather angles. The American made anodised lever lock VE use is the best in the business it offers infinite feather and 10cm of extension. It is much lower profile than other plastic bodied lever locks.

I am pretty sure VE still do demo paddles. After I sent the test paddles back to VE they went to Patagonia with Erin Bastian.

Image
I had lent the test paddles to Phil and David who both had older Lendal paddles. After the paddles went back to VE, they missed them so much that they both bought some as well!

Douglas

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Fri Jul 17, 2015 4:13 pm

Jim I had an email back from Celtic they suggest they can make me a custom paddle wth the Nordkapp or 750 kinetic blades and may me able to custom space the crank if I send them my measurements they can let me know if this is possible. I can have custom feather paddlok or swichlok or switch/varilock. All sounds very good but the price wasn't cheap I never asked about discounts but if Celtic are the way I'm going to go then I would need some money off, lots of shops selling paddles with decent discounts on rrp. Shame to hear the quality wasn't top draw with your paddles it's what is expected at the pricepoint they quoted me. I too have lendal WW 4 piece splits and like that system. Think they selling all old stock on eBay as I asked a question and the reply was no lendals of that size but Celtic can do that if you want. Very helpful customer service.

Mike feel better now as I only have the centre joint to worry about, I'm a heating engineer so no stranger at looking for springs that have jumped ship but good advice to bag and dissemble.

Lots of Werners seem to be suffering worn joints! Don't like that idea a bit of play would start to drive me mental. That's a shame because if I'd had to buy a paddle without asking about I would have probably gone with them as I like my WW blades. A wee bit inconvenient to have a 220cm paddle glued together I like to split my paddle then it fits in the cockpit or boot of the car.

Douglas those VE blades look stunning! I like how the core art is away from the edges. I know blade size isn't everything and dihedral and stiffness also play a part in power but think the Nordkapps are 750cm or there about the large VE is listed at 685cm the Correyvrecken at 721cm2 ikelos at 691cm maybe suggests the cored blades are stiffer and more powerful so they can be smaller? Would be good to get a demo set or even see a set in the flesh to see what the cranks are like.

Active4seasons do you feel a power difference between the VE blades and the Correyvrecken?

I'm probably over analysing this but if I'm spending a few hundred on a paddle I want to get it right can't afford to buy twice

User avatar
MikeB
Posts: 8061
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 9:44 pm
Location: Scotland
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 14 times

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by MikeB » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:53 pm

4x4maddog wrote:Jim I had an email back from Celtic they suggest they can make me a custom paddle wth the Nordkapp or 750 kinetic blades and may me able to custom space the crank if I send them my measurements they can let me know if this is possible. I can have custom feather paddlok or swichlok or switch/varilock. All sounds very good but the price wasn't cheap I never asked about discounts but if Celtic are the way I'm going to go then I would need some money off, lots of shops selling paddles with decent discounts on rrp.
-------
I'm probably over analysing this but if I'm spending a few hundred on a paddle I want to get it right can't afford to buy twice
If I was buying off the shelf, I'd hope for a discount - but if I was having a paddle custom made to order, I might ask, but wouldn't expect to get ;-)

Just saying - -

The difference between M&S tailoring, and Saville Row I guess - - -

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:16 pm

MikeB wrote:
If I was buying off the shelf, I'd hope for a discount - but if I was having a paddle custom made to order, I might ask, but wouldn't expect to get ;-)

Just saying - -

The difference between M&S tailoring, and Saville Row I guess - - -
True but if they don't need or can't change the cranks and I i take the Kinetic 750 blades ( which they say has a down tilted geometry that produces good initial power to aid manovoevring for better boat control, the Nordkapps have a softer catch) then really I'm just specifying a Celtic paddle the only custom part would be indexing on both sides.

Shy Bairns get nowt ;)

tcorden
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by tcorden » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:07 pm

Why does everyone always expect a discount in this industry? Making these complex composite components, in small numbers, at the prices expected is making no one any money. If that paddle was part of a mountain bike or a tennis racquet, a rowing oar, or similar would you be asking for a discount? You are getting a lot of labour and expensive materials for almost nothing. I know Stu at VE, work in the composites industry and am a paddler. No other industry would give away discounts for such highly engineered components, so why do paddlers expect one? Spend your money and be happy people are making the effort to supply such nice products.

User avatar
4x4maddog
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:17 pm

Re: Paddle dilemma/durability

Post by 4x4maddog » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:26 pm

tcorden wrote:Why does everyone always expect a discount in this industry? Making these complex composite components, in small numbers, at the prices expected is making no one any money. If that paddle was part of a mountain bike or a tennis racquet, a rowing oar, or similar would you be asking for a discount? You are getting a lot of labour and expensive materials for almost nothing. I know Stu at VE, work in the composites industry and am a paddler. No other industry would give away discounts for such highly engineered components, so why do paddlers expect one? Spend your money and be happy people are making the effort to supply such nice products.
Don't expect a discount but sometimes sweetens a deal lots of retailers offering discounts on other brands of top end paddles so must be some margin in it for them or it's even coming from the manufacture themselves to sell more products as these are not stock items. It almost makes sense if purchasing direct from the makers that there may be a discount as there is no paddle shop middleman.

the manufacture gave me a price for an order and said if I was interested there could be a discount, so in fact I was offered it not a case of me asking or demanding one. I commented if I were to go with that manufacture I would get some off I expect this to be a small token gesture to give a feel good factor. Sometimes it's better to get your products out there at a discount and have people say how nice the product and customer service is and what good value they got, in the end you will make more profits. I showed an interest in a product and they dangled a carrot ;)

Maybe us tight paddlers make it a buyers market paddles are made too well and last too long,

Post Reply