Tidal Stream Atlases

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Matto
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Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Matto » Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:04 pm

Some while ago whilst on a training session in the Menai Strait, our coach showed us a Tidal Stream Atlas for the Menai, which showed each hour of the tide on a separate page, with different pages for neap and spring tides, and a detailed view of the tidal flow throughout the straits spread across its pages.

To this day I can't find any such product on the market for the Menai Strait or any other inshore straits where tidal behaviour is heavily altered by the local geography (Sound of Mull or Kyle Rhea for example). Most products seem to be very large view.

What am I looking for?
Matto

buxtonmick
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by buxtonmick » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:04 pm

Hi Matto, I think you'll have been looking at the Admiralty Tidal stream Atlas which gives a fairly broad indication of tidal flow in the format that you mention, but is a little too broad for sea kayaks. The best that you will find, IMHO, are the charts in the excellent Pesda Press guidebooks such as '50 best Welsh trips' etc.

Cheers, Mick.

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MikeB
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:24 pm


Mark Steel
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Mark Steel » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:35 pm

Reeds small boat Almanac contains various tidal diagrams/tidal gate information, quite a good diagram of the Menai strait.

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Matto
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Matto » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:51 pm

It's not just the Menai I'm interested in. I can think of a dozen similar places where more accurate, close range tidal stream information would be very useful, if was made available. I just wondered if what I saw was part of a larger range of maps/atlases which covered other areas as well, but since I can't even find the original product on sale anywhere I'm not sure.
Matto

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MikeB
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:53 pm

Matto wrote:It's not just the Menai I'm interested in. I can think of a dozen similar places where more accurate, close range tidal stream information would be very useful, if was made available. I just wondered if what I saw was part of a larger range of maps/atlases which covered other areas as well, but since I can't even find the original product on sale anywhere I'm not sure.
I've never heard of anything like what you're describing - and yes, it would have its uses for the likes of us.

Chris Bolton
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:58 pm

This is from the Admiralty Tidal Stream Atlas NP218 "North Coast of Ireland and West Coast of Scotland".
Is the detail for Kyle Rhea the kind of thing you're after?
Image
It's copyright, but I think showing one page as an example counts as 'fair use' (and it's giving them free advertising!)

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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:04 pm

Alternatively, the guide to the area, "Welsh Sea Kayaking" does have a 2 page spread of tidal flows in the Menai Straits, hour by hour. Maybe that was what you saw? (Diagram is blue and green)

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puddled
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by puddled » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:31 pm

As Chris points out, Jimski's book "Welsh Sea Kayaking" is an excellent resource but another very useful reference is
"Cruising Anglesey and Adjoining Waters" by North West Venturer Yacht Club member, Ralph Morris. His publication has details of tides all around the Anglesey coast and references tides elsewhere between Liverpool and Porhtmadog.

Enjoy.
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PlymouthDamo
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by PlymouthDamo » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:56 pm

If you know any keen yachties, or call into a marina or yacht club, you might be able to pick up an old copy of a 'Reeds Nautical Almanac.' They're published annually, so I find that my yachtie mates will dump their old ones on me from time to time. These contain tidal stream charts, as shown above, for the whole of Britain. They're not quite as big (so you'll need good eyes or a magnifying glass) but do have the same data. (If you wanted to buy one, my 2007 edition says £35.)

(Edit - I somehow missed Mark Steel's comment above. Wot he says...)

john.ruston
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by john.ruston » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:25 pm

There is a concise description of the mechanics of flows hereabouts in Terry Storry's 1986 Snowdonia Guide pps 132ff.
He mentions Laver's Cruising Guide to Anglesey and the Menai Sts. (1977) by Robert Kemp. Might just be worthwhile looking for this in the library.

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MikeB
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:35 pm

Or just ask the original coach?

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tom_kayak
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by tom_kayak » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:51 am

Coming from Germany I have a question:
In the UK-Atlases I see numbers, like "01,02" or "03,08" attached next to the arrows, which I do not understand.
Can someone explain these to me?
You also see them in:
http://www.sailingalmanac.com/Almanac/T ... ScotStream
thanks
tom

Mark Steel
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Mark Steel » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:10 am

tom_kayak wrote:Coming from Germany I have a question:
In the UK-Atlases I see numbers, like "01,02" or "03,08" attached next to the arrows, which I do not understand.
Can someone explain these to me?
You also see them in:
http://www.sailingalmanac.com/Almanac/T ... ScotStream
thanks
tom
Flow rate, lower number is neaps and the larger springs.

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tom_kayak
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by tom_kayak » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:22 am

Flow rate in Knots?

Mark Steel
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Mark Steel » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:33 am

That's correct. 08 = .8 knot

john.ruston
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by john.ruston » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:46 pm

.... and the comma indicates the position at which the readings were obtained. Not a drop of ink is wasted.

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Matto
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Matto » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:22 pm

MikeB wrote:Or just ask the original coach?
I just did. Apparently it wasn't an actual product, but was a collection of maps extracted from this book...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cruising-Angles ... ling+guide

...and reconstructed into a more useful format.
Matto

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Mark R
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Mark R » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:10 am

All the Pesda guides do, is recycle the tidal info available elsewhere...the only advantage really being that a lot of sources are collated in one place.

Nearest thing to the original poster's Q is the Reed Small Craft Almanac - covers (in just a few pages) the main tidal gateways around the UK.

Most detailed sources available are the Admiralty Pilots - they include remarkable amounts of detail for certain locations of interest to shipping, but less to others - e.g. the Pentland Firth (i.e. approaches to Scapa Flow's oil terminals) gets over a dozen pages, Land's End gets a sentence or two. They also often fail to make it clear whether the tidal info they outline is relevant to inshore locations, i.e. where we'd be paddling.

My view is that the more detailed info you get at microcosmic level (e.g. 'this bay creates this back eddy flowing at this rate in this direction at this state of the tide on this size of tide'), the less accurate and more misleading it gets. Local tides are variable and chaotic; applying Swiss-railway-timetable logic to them is only going to cause you problems. Understand the macrocosmic tides (i.e. the regional big picture) and then just interpret what you find on the ground.
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Chris Bolton
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Chris Bolton » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:30 am

Local tides are variable and chaotic
A very good point, Mark. Even if one has a detailed chart, the actual flows on a given day can vary significantly. Wind and barometric pressure affect the level, and hence the flows, plus what happens at Springs may be different to Neaps.

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MikeB
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by MikeB » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:13 pm

Chris Bolton wrote:
Local tides are variable and chaotic
A very good point, Mark. Even if one has a detailed chart, the actual flows on a given day can vary significantly. Wind and barometric pressure affect the level, and hence the flows, plus what happens at Springs may be different to Neaps.
Yep! Cuan Sound didn't behave as expected at Easter. When there should have been a SE flow, there wasn't!

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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by 999birdie » Tue Jul 18, 2017 12:47 pm

After a long and fruitless search tidal stream data for the bay of Biscay, I was delighted to find this:

http://www.puertos.es/es-es/oceanografi ... ortus.aspx#

Depends how good your Spanish is, but if you tick the "corrientes" box in the "predicciones" section on the right you can get tidal stream data in m/s (1m/s = 1.9 kts) across most of Europe.

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TechnoEngineer
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:38 am

You might want to look for "racing tides" publications, or "winning tides".

Here's an example of a good one for the Isle of Wight:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Solent-Island- ... 1871680557

He sells a similar title for Portland.
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Selkie
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Selkie » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:56 am

I knew my old paddling grounds of Dorset and Hampshire well and over the years you amass a great deal of information on local races and streams. Having moved to Cornwall with its more rugged coast and greater fluctuations in depth etc found myself having to do a lot more research. There seems to be a real lack of localized information. I consider myself to be a capable paddler in most conditions but have found myself caught out and surprised by races and overfalls that according to all info out there should not be there or not at the time I was there. Talking to the local fishermen is probably the best way to gain local information, but I learnt from my diving days that what a fisherman calls slack water was a very broad margin compared to what was needed to put divers in the water :O
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PeterG
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by PeterG » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:37 pm

Paddling in the Scilly Isles, the tides often don't seem to match the atlas or tidal diamonds. A fisherman told me that even after 40 years around the islands he was sometimes surprised by the direction or force of the flow, on the other hand it was more often with you than against you. We found the same, the flow was almost always with us.

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Chas C
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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by Chas C » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:40 am

I tend to follow the same lines as Mark, I've been using the "Imray tidal/current planner" for 6+ years and it suits me fine.

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Re: Tidal Stream Atlases

Post by pathbrae » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:48 pm

http://www.visitmyharbour.com/tidal-stream-utility/


And

http://www.visitmyharbour.com/articles/ ... l-streams/

I've not tried the app yet but I do use the tide stream pages which are based on the Admiralty tide stream atlases so are ok for sailing but maybe not detailed enough for kayaking
So much sea - so little time to see it.

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