P&H rope skeg^

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The Shiner
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P&H rope skeg^

Post by The Shiner »

I can sum it up in one word... "PANTS"

I have the mk2 version on my new Delphin, and it is garbage!
Doesn't click up all the time, slips down, doesn't come all the way down every time, can be very stiff to lift.
(rinsed with the garden hose after every use)

I am in talks with the dealer to try and get it fixed under warranty, but in the meantime I thought I'd have a moan!
(not going to mention any names, as the dealer has been extremely helpful!)

So come on P&H, why don't you just offer a wire upgrade like you can have on a custom built composite?
The Delphin is super fun, and I am very smitten with it, but this is a key part of the kayak if I want to tour in it.

Rich

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Re: P&H rope skeg

Post by Incayak »

You're not alone on this Rich, here's my recent experience with the the P&H "rope" skeg.

My Cetus is about 18 months old now and the skeg just got stiffer and stiffer over the winter until it jammed completely. The theory behind this skeg system is great but it seems that in my case poor manufacturing lets it down. The skeg pivots within a red plastic housing that is a slide fit into a slot moulded in the skeg box. The slot on my boat was not precisely finished to accept the housing which when installed settled out of line. This misalignment put the skeg out of kilter to the extent that the blade was interfering badly with the skeg box. The whole kit and kaboodle eventually went solid.

I spent a couple of hours fettling it at the weekend; pulling the skeg out was a real wrestle - the red housing was well and truly jammed into the slot. Once out I took a file to the housing and shaped it to fit the sloppy shape of the slot. (I'd rather shape the housing than start filing away gel coat inside the skeg box) The complete assembly now fits as it should, the skeg is aligned fore and aft and it works free and easy. That said I have a suspicion that with repeated operation it will twist out of line again and require further fettling; at some stage it'll become so sloppy that the red housing will need replaced and a new one shaped to fit the slot.

Hope this is useful to any others suffering from ropeskegitus . . . I'd be interested to hear of any other remedies.

That's me all skegged out for now . . . . .

(except to say that I have two boats with wire skegs that have never needed any attention)

Grahamd
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Re: P&H rope skeg

Post by Grahamd »

I have the mark 1 and mark 2 skegs on a scorpio and delphin, and after a small modification on the mark 1 have had no serious trouble with either. I like the system, because if you go ashore with the skeg down, it just pushes up with no harm, which I understand would not be the case with many wire skeg arrangements. My Rockpool kayak is wire and I have no trouble with that either, but this is arranged to tension the wire if you land with the skeg down. (I know I should check my skeg is up before landing, but at that time I must be thinking about lunch)
I do maintain the P & H skegs by removing the rear mechanism and washing out to remove grit from between the skeg and plastic bolt arrangement and I replace and tension the elastic. The plastic bolt does have to be tightened carefully so as to properly support the skeg and ensure a reasonable friction fit in the skeg box. I also but some silicone on the slider every now and then.
I have no connection with P & H other than purchasing two of their boats.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: P&H rope skeg

Post by Douglas Wilcox »

Sorry to hear your problems Rich, I hope your dealer will be able to help as something is clearly not right. If not, contact P&H directly they are very helpful. I was one of the first to identify problems with the MK1 slider and was then involved testing the Mk2 slider before it went into production boats. In our group there are now 8 mk 2 sliders and none have been any problem. I retrofitted a Mk2 slider to my Delphin with a mk1 slider and again no problem.

Both sliders share the same skeg design in the box. Incakayak correctly identifies that the red axle adjustment needs to be spot on. It is sealed with a block of adhesive but it might need to be adjusted. The two halves of the red axle screw into each other with the skeg between them.

Image
The red axle sitting on top of the black skeg head. Once installed it fits through the large central hole in the skeg head.

As Incakayak says you need to carefully unscrew the two axle halves just enough so that the skeg is free to rotate but not so far that the axle expands too much and the the pressure plates on each end become too tight to slide into the grooves in the skeg box. The design is clearly aimed at making allowance for moulding tolerance in the skeg box but sometimes it might not be enough.

If the skeg is too stiff on the axle when the axle is just squeezable into the skeg box grooves, then you need to file a bit off the outer end of the hexagonal axle pressure plate.

If the skeg is flopping about and you can't screw the axle in any more because it will be too loose in the skeg box grooves you can make a washer from a plastic bottle and put it on the axle next to one side of the skeg. Grit can jam the skeg on the axle so its worth hosing out the skeg box as well as the slider mechanism.

Image
The assembled skeg. (the elastics are normally black but are red here for clarity.

Douglas

PS I do my best to avoid contributing to skeg threads but I could not help myself this time :o)

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Re: P&H rope skeg

Post by nicholas »

The skeg on my Aries was quite stiff . when I looked in the boat with a torch the tube the rope runs in entered the skeg box at a very Sharpe angle and did not locate properly so I took it out and heated a nice smooth curve on it .
It now locates properly and runs smooth.
It did annoy me that I had to do this on a two grand kayak

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The Shiner
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by The Shiner »

Thanks for the replies chaps.
And thanks Douglas, I will check that out at the weekend.

Rich

Kirsten
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

I come even not this far to deploy the skeg sometimes. My problem is the slider. The ratchet is wobbly. Even on land with the kayak hanging in the "water" position and I standing next to the kayak with dry hands I struggle to move the ratchet.

I have this problem since a year and did some attempts at 2 dealers (and one provider for boat hire and courses who works together with one of them) to get replacement parts so the I can exchange the bar and the ratchet. But none has the parts and I forgot about it as when you have a second boat, then you are using this the most time if the other boat is "under the weather".

Though summer is approaching and I have multiday trips in mind so I need the volume of my Cetus for all the camping stuff, no chance to use Rubber Duckie for expeditions. Eventually I managed today to write an email to P&H and asked where I can get the parts.

Also the skeg is sometimes not retracting fully into the skeg box. And the next day paddling it is in or something alike, I forgot how it is exactly as it is months ago that I took the Cetus out. Last time in begin of October. Unfortunately on a day where it was quite windy, we and the wind changing directions a few time and it was a real struggle with the skeg. As soon it is down it is fine, easy to bring up again, the annoying thing is the deployment. Doing tiny adjustements? Forget it! Far to much hassle.

I hope I get this sorted soon, I only need the parts (patience and some skills in handicraft as well) and someones workshop/barn/carport where I can do the repair.

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MikeB
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by MikeB »

The solution to all this hassle is to be found here - http://reenterandroll.com/?p=25

Dave Thomas
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Dave Thomas »

Or contact P&H and buy a replacement mk2 skeg slider kit. Vastly superior to the mk 1 and less 'making good' required than appears to be necessary with the Kajaksport version.

Yes, the cord/bungee arrangement needs a bit of routine maintenance (occasionally cleaning out sand & grit from the skeg axle area and putting a bit of silicone spray on the slider rod once or twice a season) but I think this is well worth the effort for the advantages of ease of maintainability and resistance to damage when ones memory fails before a beach landing or a rock-hopping incident!
Dave Thomas

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MikeB
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by MikeB »

Dave Thomas wrote:Or contact P&H and buy a replacement mk2 skeg slider kit. Vastly superior to the mk 1 and less 'making good' required than appears to be necessary with the Kajaksport version.
The OP seems to be having problems with the MkII as well though. In fairness, I suspect trying to fit a replacement system into a RM boat would be challenging.
Yes, the cord/bungee arrangement needs a bit of routine maintenance (occasionally cleaning out sand & grit from the skeg axle area and putting a bit of silicone spray on the slider rod once or twice a season) but I think this is well worth the effort for the advantages of ease of maintainability and resistance to damage when ones memory fails before a beach landing or a rock-hopping incident!
Agreed - all skeg systems benefit from a little routine maintenance. That said, the wire skeg on my partner's Capella is trouble free as was the one on my Quest. I think I had the Quest over 10 years and pulled the cable once just to lube it because I wanted to rather than it needing it. The K/sport system on the T/race I now have has never had to be pulled apart in 4 years. K/tek also make a good wire system, and I don't hear complaints about it.

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by rhysie »

I have a 2010 Cetus and after ruining the skeg slider twice I got a MarkII one sent out to me. The MarkII is brilliant, slides easy, doesn't jam and allows better adjustment of the skeg. The only real problem I have now is how flimsy that pathetic skeg blade is.

nicholas
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by nicholas »

Don't quote me on this but I think you can get a skeg upgrade
I have seen underwater footage of them and they do flop about a bit. Hey maybe they are designed to do that.

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Tommy 2 thumbs »

Kirsten wrote:
Also the skeg is sometimes not retracting fully into the skeg box. And the next day paddling it is in or something alike, I forgot how it is exactly as it is months ago that I took the Cetus out. Last time in begin of October. Unfortunately on a day where it was quite windy, we and the wind changing directions a few time and it was a real struggle with the skeg. As soon it is down it is fine, easy to bring up again, the annoying thing is the deployment. Doing tiny adjustements? Forget it! Far to much hassle.
When you store your Cetus do you keep the skeg up or down? If the skeg is kept up then the elastic stretches leading to it not deploying properly.
P&H Cetus MV, Dagger Stratos S

Kirsten
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

Skeg is down when boat is stored, because of the bungee. Came on this idea on my own when I had a closer look to the skeg and how it works.

Still no answer from P&H :(
I want to keep the rope skeg (for now), but need to replace the bar and slider button. But where I can get the parts if not from P&H?

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by MikeB »

Are you mailing them? I suggest a phone call - ask for a lady called Pat who, if she still works with them, will almost certainly be able to help. Mike.

Kirsten
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

Actually I have a local P&H dealer, they are more in bigger boats (the ones with engines), though also a kayak department since last year, but I didn't know since I checked at the P&H site that they are selling P&Hs/Pyranhas.

I was told my Cetus has the old slider, not a simple repair possible as no screws. So it is replacing the whole sliderbox and will be charged with about £50 to get the parts. Still I will keep the rope skeg. I didn't check which version of skeg I have (how I know this?).

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by TimL@Pyranha »

Rich

Please PM me if your problem is not already sorted.

Kirtsen

I have been speaking to your dealer this week and new parts are on their way. I don't believe your issue is a difficult one to solve and we should be able to get it sorted by the weekend.

Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tim
Pyranha
Runcorn

Kirsten
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

Hi Tim

I'm waiting for email/phonecall from Nik. And it is not the whole sliderbox which needs replacement, sorry for this wrong information, I took the pictures upsidedown without recognising it, the moment I looked at the pictures (they were taken a year ago). Though when Nik asked for a "whole" picture I went to the container for a new photo and saw the screws. Yeppeah, quick repair possible.
But not this weekend, as it is Easter and I take Rubber Duckie to the West Coast where at least one rocky landing is awaiting us.

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The Shiner
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by The Shiner »

TimL@Pyranha wrote:Rich

Please PM me if your problem is not already sorted.

Kirtsen

I have been speaking to your dealer this week and new parts are on their way. I don't believe your issue is a difficult one to solve and we should be able to get it sorted by the weekend.

Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thanks for the offer of help Tim, fingers crossed my retailer has it sorted now.

Rich

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

I'm still waiting, though like Rich I also hope that my retailer got it now sorted and parts on the way.

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The Shiner
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by The Shiner »

Sorted now Kirsten, mine is now as good as new.
Hope you get sorted soon.

Rich

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by richb250 »

Apologies for rather late reply to this thread. I've had some slightly different problems with P&H MKII skegs, both involving the skeg moulding being a big too big in critical areas. Both easily fixed, so I thought it'd be worth sharing.

The first was a Scorpio LV, where the skeg needed a slight tug to bring it down through the first few degrees of operation. On close inspection, we found that the very tip of the skeg was jamming into the back top of the skeg box. Seemingly, the skeg was too long, or the skeg box was too short! My plan to gently file the end off was overruled by Pete from Summit to Sea who took an angle grinder to it. Problem solved. Excellent (if slightly alarming) after sales support!

Have just this moment sorted a different problem with my Cetus MV. Skeg stopped working this weekend. Again, it needed assistance through the first few degrees, but it felt different - like the mechanism was catching every few degrees. Also, it didn't always go fully down. This time, the spokes of the skeg wheel were interfering with the flats of the red axle components when it was jammed into place. The solution was to gently shave a bit of plastic off each spoke with a craft knife. It now works perfectly.

I quite like the P&H system, but it seems to be being let down by poor design and/or poor tolerances on the key components. Pity, given how much I've enjoyed paddling their boats!

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by Kirsten »

My slider was repaired yesterday (replaced button and bar) and an additional knot in the bungee. At least in the workshop it was moving smoothly.

The reason for the slider problems went down to the spring in the button. It was in a slightly wrong position as the little stopper is sitting on an axle, though the pressure from the spring was not centered and pushed the stopper axle out on one side.
I'm can't tell whether it was a really wrong positioned spring (less then a millimetre from where it should be or whether the axle was not jammed properly in.

(can take a picture later to show what I mean).

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The Shiner
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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by The Shiner »

I will never ever buy or recommend a P&H kayak with a rope skeg.
Maybe I've just been spoilt in the past with skegs that actually work properly?

Anyhow, good luck to all with your skeg problems.
If they just bit the bullet and used wire then they wouldn't have half the problem and bad words said about them.

Rich (not a P&H owner anymore!)

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Re: P&H rope skeg^

Post by MikeB »

The Shiner wrote: If they just bit the bullet and used wire then they wouldn't have half the problem and bad words said about them.

Rich (not a P&H owner anymore!)
Never had any trouble with the wire skeg on my previous boat, a Quest. I did remove it once to clean and lube the cable.

Image

The T/race boats use the Kajaksport system, which is superb. Had my XcapeX for 4 years now, and never even had to pull the cable for cleaning. I tried a Cetus with the rope / line and bungee skeg and hated having to release that little locking clip device every time. Mike

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