My long way to the roll (and still going)

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Ken_T
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Ken_T »

Hi,
It is not the bubbles that give lift, aerated water actually gives less lift. The lift you feel in that situation is from the kayak moving sideways with the wave, causing the paddle blade to be pulled over the surface of the water.
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by john.ruston »

Hi Ken ! Thanks for that - it'll teach me not to be flippant - of course there isn't much meat in air bubbles but what I had in mind is the rotative tendency inside a breaking wave - (all that waveology) - the opposite might be true in trying to roll back uphill - ie support/paddle on the shore side. :) this could lead to a new thread ... John.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Ken_T »

Hi John,
Sorry, I didn't mean to insult any ones intelligence but I have seen so many explanations on the internet (including this website) that ignore the rules of physics that being a bit of a pedant I sometimes comment.
Ken

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by john.ruston »

Hi Ken. Nothing wrong with pedants - especially when trying to uphold science and reason. Carry on challenging - it is good for any debate :)

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Jim »

Oh, I interpreted the bubbles thing as sarcasm, thought it a bit out of place but decided not to comment on it for a change....

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Ken_T »

Hi Jim & John,
I wasn't sure if the bubbles were a joke or not, it is so difficult to tell on a forum, but I have heard coaches explaining in earnest that it is surface tension that allows you to roll.
Ken

Kirsten
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

First try of roll my own seakayak in the sea failed. It is F..cking cold on the head and it was at the end of a trip. Beside the boat nothing of the the used equipment was mine. The type of paddle I used this day I never used before, I only was wearing a wollen hat.

To avoid a cold water shock, one capsize holding onto the nose of someone else boat and up via Eskimo rescue. It wasn't my best, though not the worst one. Now with a wet head, hands on the paddle, setup on the left and going over to the left to roll up on the right. First attemp was nearly there, but I was rushing because of the cold, at least enough time for a breath and for a 2nd under water setup. I took a little bit more time as I had to sort the paddle, but was then ruhshing and the blade was diving and touching the shallow ground and not a chance to get the head in the near of the surface.
So I decided not to try a third setup but request an Eskimo rescue.

Enough for today, it was already getting dark and my head was freezing.

No pressure at all. 3 Star assessment is at the 1st of March. Until then there are some more pool sessions to roll the Scirocco (I got a Greenland paddle for the pool, but I think it will be a little bit awkward to have the GL paddle under deckline during the assessment and swap the paddle for the rolling part or I have to learn quite fast how to do all the other stuff with the GLP) and some daytrips with the club on weekends with volunteers for roll the duck sessions at the end of the trip. The volunteers has no need to get wet, I need them only next to my boat so that they can present me their bow in case I fail.


Before I start to exercise rolling in waves / surf, I first should learn to roll the seakayak on calm water, then when it is a little bit choppy/moving, followed by handling the kayak in the surf (my surf landings at the moment are either perfect landings or wet exits upsidedown).

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Get someone to shoot some video of you!
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by bjoern »

Hi Kirsten,
good you keep practicing.
It is F..cking cold on the head
I like to stay comfortable and bought a 5mm wetsuit hood (http://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/divin ... prene.html
and I use nose plugs and a drysuit....

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

"How it comes that you roll the river boat so beautiful, but struggling with the seakayak" ...."have you good contact to the boat"

These are words from another kayaker in the not-coached-area to me during the last pool session.

Me? Rolling beautifull? Ok, it was the start of the session, I was full of energy and was rolling one of the left over kayaks a few times. Even without a nice setup but diving blade. So probably it seems easy from the outside.

For a while I thought I have full contact to the Scirocco. But when I failed a few times and needed eskimo rescue, I returned to the pool side and checked out a static eskimo. I had good contact with my knees, but with body to the side and stretched I recognised that my hips has nearly no contact to the boat. Worst it felt whether I was falling out of the boat.
I didn't pay attention to it, because I had nice contact with the knees, to the tigh pads, to the footpegs and the backrest.

The two man got it later to roll the Scirocco (using a paddlefloat or extended blade) with more or less problems, but by nature men hips are more narrow then female hips. So I should be also be able to roll this damn thing.
But not this day, I was getting tired and my right wrist was in a little pain. The whole week I had much tension between my shoulders, which was sometimes quite painful. Not the best precondition for rolling. As with this tension you can't relax and so I was using more power which make it worst for the wrist. Anyway I tried another boat, an older Perception Whiplash. And I was watch by a "photographer". What happens when you are watch and your are tired? I failed, I rolled the boat just before being watched but already tired and so with problems. Far away from a beautiful roll.

A last attempt to cheer me up and trying to roll the boat I had at the start of todays session. First try was hard work, but success. Second capsize finished with a wet exit.

leave it, enough for today. It makes no sense.

I will try to find a volunteer next week to film. I hadn't my camera with me as the batteries were not charged.
For the real water usually I have a drysuit, I use a noseplug in the pool (don't need it in the sea) and I have a neopren hat (and a helmet). I wear a drysuit when doing my first roll attempt in the cold sea. The reason that I hadn't my neopren hat and helmet is a simple, but stupid reason. My car keys left the house with another person the moment I woke up and I didn't saw the person not again until the evening. So no access to my equipement in the car boot.

7 weeks left.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kayaks'N'Beer »

Keep going. 7 weeks is plenty time. Right now you're still at the having-to-think-about-it stage. This will pass with practice and become something that's more feeling than strategy.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by nigelhatton »

Kersten, were you a member of palavas kayak de mer?

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

As I have to use Google to find out what or who "palavas kayak de mer" is, the obviously answer to your question, Nigel, is "No".

Also my french is very poor, "merci", "merde" and "bonjour" are the only words I know for sure *lol*

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by nigelhatton »

OK, it's not you but I knew a Kirsten from Scotland when I used to live in Séte and she was a member of Palavas kayak de Mer.
Anyway keep practising your roll but try never to capsize in the first place.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

I should learn not to take the stress from work into the pool. I was so fed up yesterday and it took some upsidedowns to get my mind free.

Pool was quite busy again and because of my mood I didn't catched my kayak (yes, eventually I have my own WW boat now*) and picked my favourite boat, before the coached people had all arrived, I have to confessed. But it seems everyone got a boat.

Paddle for today was my Werner Shuna (bent shaft). I used it in the pool only once before, but struggled with it. I prefered my Celtic (also bent shaft) or my Werner Powerhouse (straight shaft). But for the assessment I want to use the Shuna as it is a little bit lighter, the day will be hard enough. And I think the assessor will not accept a paddle swap just for the roll *rofl*

I felt no confidence so I watched first other doing rolls. One of them struggled a little bit but got finally up using an extended blade. But everyone busy with oneself. So I sticked to pool sides and floats until someone was available for assistance.

I didn't need it even my first attempt failed, but then I remembered the extended blade and rolled up. The hardest part was to get the paddle in the position. Fighting against the water resistance.

All my rolling attempts this day where only successfully when using the extended blade.

I managed it this time to get one of the coaches to record one of my roles.

(here it is: )

I see that my blade is diving immediately, but for myself it is not feeling like this. I think that I do all my rolls like this as it felt like usual. I know that my blade is diving sometimes, but I had the impression that this happens when I have done half way of the sweep.

As the coach was watching the monitor and not me, I have to demonstrate another role as I wanted to know from him where the issue is.
So capsize, setup position and where is the blade? Is it out of the water? I stretched my arm further out, hard work today. A little bit down again, then sweeping around and rolling up. Or not, as I felt over again half way up.

After I was up, thanks to the extended blade - again - the analysis followed: this is not a sweep, but pulling the blade down. And "you are too tense. Relax!". I couldn't and I can't. Always my problem, not only in a kayak. It takes quite a while for me to relax and for this I have to be out of any situation which is stressing me. I was away from work, but I was in a kayak and only one month to go until I have to demonstrate the roll to an assessor.

When another coach came along and asking how its going I told that I'm struggling today using the Shuna. Answer: "Maybe it is the boat, it is probably too big for you". Come on, it was the Topo. The boat in which I did my first rolls and which I used the most time in the pool.

Out of the boat to have a wee break, I felt how tense I was. I was walking like I had sat in the boat for hours and not for 30min. For the next 20min or so I wasn't in another kayak, but strolling around and watching the other, making photos, from the poolside and also swimming.

10min to the end of the pool time I catched the Scirocco. When I took it over there was water in it and I left it in. Where the thighbraces always this far in front? I touched them with my knee bones not with the tighs.

It ended with a wet exit after two failed attempts, but from the start I tried the extended blade. As the boat was upside down I used the chance for practising re-entry rolls. No success at all. It was even really exhausting to get the paddle in the setup position. Which is stupid as it should be floating parallel next to the boat, but for some reason I pulled it under water to get hold of it.

(and this morning I have sore muscle in my shoulders and back)

As the time is running (I know: relax, don't push yourself to much) I signed up for 4 additional poolsessions as someone from the club organised sessions in another pool. The best thing: BYOS - Bring your own seakayak. YEAH :D

*The week before I was on holiday so no pool for me, but I bought me a river boat. At the end of the test paddle (just some easy stuff, crossing the river current several times, some easy turns, getting a feeling to the boat and try to relax) I asked whether I can try a roll. The first capsize was holding on to the nose of another boat for eskimo rescue, to be prepared for the cold water shock for the proper attempt. We were on the Esk and the water was really cold, but a neopren hat and the helmet kept the head warm, and I cheated using a noseclip. When I came up again I was dizzy, somehow. The dizziness was not really in my head, not as a feeling. (sounds confusing) The cold water in the ears irritated the nerves and had effect to the balance. Anyway, one roll. I took my time for the setup. Was a weird feeling when the cold water went between BA and drysuit, but I wanted to know how it feels when wearing full kayak kit.
I needed eskimo rescue and it was one of my worst. I reached out for the other boat and nearly slipped out of mine. At least I lost contact to the tight brace on the side I had to use for roll up. As soon I had the hand on the other boat and the head this far out of the water to take a breath, I went down again, to get my legs sorted. Went not well, when rolling up I slipped out completely and needed a tow to the bank by one paddler (Thanks Alan) and Anthony was rescuing my boat. At the shore, still in the water I leaned on the floating boat. Not that I was worried that it will be swept away, but I was unable to stand on my own as no balance for about a minute.

This experience showed me how dangerous rescue training and paddling in cold water could be, when you on your own. And I have to get a proper skull cap to keep the water out of my ears. The sea will not be this problem, not on the scottish West coast, the water is about 10degrees and I hadn't problems when I capsized intendedly in January.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by PlymouthDamo »

Double post - why don't message boards ever let you delete them?
Last edited by PlymouthDamo on Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by PlymouthDamo »

You referred to use of a nose clip as 'cheating.' Try this for size: I use a full scuba mask (and hood) when I'm doing rolling practice. It's amazing how much it protects you from the cold - when divers do mask removal and replacement drills, the one thing that they all report is the incredible shock of the cold water on their face. A mask also grants you perfect vision while you're under water, which is never a bad thing.

Don't listen to any voices telling you that this sort of stuff is cheating. Make it as easy for yourself as possible while you're learning and you'll get far more practice than by 'toughing it out.' The only way to make it second nature is to do a lot of it. I only do rolling practice perhaps twice a year, and I always do it the wimpish way with mask and hood. But every time I need to do a roll in anger, without a mask, it never fails.

A final point. I recently failed a practice roll. First time in years. Reason: it's my first ever sea kayak, which I've built myself, and I made a mickey mouse job of securing the thigh braces, which fell off when i needed them... The only other time in the past 5 years I've failed a roll was a practice roll on a sea kayaking expedition with a chap from these boards, using one of his boats in which I hadn't adjusted the footrests. On both occasions, I nearly got up, but not quite. This is what happens when you're not 'locked in' so you can't transfer your hip-flick to the boat. As soon as these problems were rectified, the rolls just happened without trying. This isn't an issue for me in my tight-fitting white-water boat, but it's definitely worth making 100% certain your feet and thighs have got something to brace on before trying a roll in a new boat.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

Hi Damo

Later you have no noseclip when paddling on the sea. Don't now how many river kayakers using a nose clip when paddling down a river. Because of this I call it "cheating" as it is not realistic to wear a noseclip all time you in the boat.

I have no problem with the cold in the face. It is only cold on a warm head (like you have after wearing a wollen head for a few hours) and the icy cold water in the ears.

I use the noseclip usually only during the pool session as chlorine water is painful when it is in the sinusses. Also I expect it will be very uncomfortable to have the icy water in the sinusses, that's the reason why I put them on. I just didn't think about what effect cold water has on the ears, especially the equilibrium organ.

When we did seakayak wetsessions in summer I never used the nose clip. Even when I was hanging upside down for 20sec (and more) as I volunteered as casualty for an eskimo rescue. '

My new river boat is fitted for me. Ant from Border Kayaks took time and changed several times footpegs, seat position and tight braces until we went on to the water. Maybe it needs a tiny re-adjustment, but for this I need some foam on the footplate. None of the pool boates is adjust for me, as these are all club boates.

When I have my plastic seakayak next week in the pool I will see whether it is tight enough at the hips or whether I need the pads. Whereby, both pads will be to tight. Unfortunately I can't make them thinner. My fibreglass boat has to wait for its first roll until spring. Doing the fun stuff in this one is then quite a change. As in my both plastic boat (the river and a seakayak) I sit more like a frog and control the both a lot with the tighs. Can't do this in the fibreglass.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by PlymouthDamo »

Totally agree - wearing a scuba mask would be weird when you're just out for a paddle. Re the cold in the ears: my scuba hood does a pretty good job of keeping the water out. Again, you wouldn't want to wear it while you're out for a paddle (as it makes you deaf as a post) but you might find it helpful for rolling practice. Could be worth borrowing one and seeing if it helps with the dizziness etc. after a dunking in cold water. A tight fitting 5mm one should do the job.

After my first capsize on a cold day, I often get vertigo. It goes after a few minutes though.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Jim »

Any time I am intending / expecting to roll I wear a nose clip. As you have noted it is essential in the pool or the way my sinuses react to chlorine gives me trouble for at least the next week - in fact even with a nose clip my sinuses are still bad after a pool session which i why I don't do them any more.

If I am playboating I put my nose clip on in the eddy before heading onto the wave/into the hole, doesn't matter whether I am on an artificial feature, a river wave or the falls of lora (sea), if I am about to do something where I am likely to end up the wrong way up, I put my nose clip on first.

River running I do everything in my power to stay upright so don't wear my noseclip, admittedly I do screw up more than some of my friends but it is pretty infrequent so the occasional dunking without a nose clip is tolerable. Since I took up white water canoeing I fall in a lot more but roll a lot less, and if I do manage to roll, the canoe roll tends not to force water up my nose as violently.

I never wear my noseclip sea kayaking, but to date I've never capsized a sea kayak by accident - probably because I can roll very well so never get nervous about it, I'm sure many people fall in because they get nervous and then tense up.

So don't worry about whether you would or wouldn't normally happen to be wearing a noseclip when you capsize, pretty soon most of your capsizes will be in training and I'd say it is essential to use a noseclip in training to avoid some nasty nasal conditions.

As for your video, more rotation needed, and to my mind you are trying to sit upright too soon. Rolling is a whole body motion and you seem to be separating arm movement and body movement (arms first then body...). As soon as you start the sweep try looking along your arm and the shaft towards the blade, this should help you bring your whole body up near the surface and more or less parallel with it then as you push the boat upright from the hips you head will still be down near the shaft and the last part out of the water, in the right kind of boat you can just slide your head onto the rear deck at the finish, and then sit up (in a real situation always sit up quickly when the roll is complete because you have very little stability in the low finish position, but whilst developing muscle memory it may help to pause at the finish).
The high rear deck of the topo will make finishing the roll like this quite tricky, I would suggest moving to something with a lower rear deck until you have the basic roll with the low finish really well sorted, and then learn some modifications and different rolls. My topo has the rear deck squashed, but I still generally roll it using a reverse screw roll because the ordinary screw roll is more tricky in it than most other boats.

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Jim wrote:As for your video, more rotation needed
Agreed - not seeing any shoulder rotation; they are square to the boat throughout the whole sequence - which is why you're needing to resort to using the pawlata.

I would suggest you work on what people call the "hip snap" - but look at it from the perspective of a whole body movement.

When your shoulders are square to the boat - when the boat is rotated by 90 degrees, the shoulders "knife" the water and there is very little support from the water to the body in that orientation. So when you're setting up, the shoulders need to be "looking up" towards the surface. At the end of the roll, the shoulders need to be "looking down" towards the surface *to some degree* (but not as much as the looking up during setup).

Remember that what your body doesn't do, the arms have to compensate by doing much more with weaker muscles.

Have a look at the tail end of this video, and watch carefully how the guy moves his shoulders - in particular when he ditches the paddle at the end and rights the boat:


Get someone to assist you in the pool, holding your hands as you go from "facing up towards the surface with the boat on top of you" at the beginning, through to "looking down at the water with the boat underneath you" at the end. It's critical for you to nail that body movement.
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

Februar will be a pool session dominated as Thursday splashing around with seakayaks in Alness (working in pairs, max. 6) and Friday the "usual" session with the WW kayaks (and only maybe a seakayak0 in the Aquadome in Inverness in the free session.

As I wanted to save my a journey to the storage, I put my plastic seakayak on the car on Thursday but also my (new) D75. Was it in hindsight? As arrived at the pool I was told another paddler cancelled and we were one boat short. 6 pairs but only 5 seakayaks, so the Diesel went also into the pool.

First my partner for this session (Sam) got a try and I quite a bit of exercise in recovery before I jumped into my Rubber Duckie. With the problems from last week I setup for a "normal" roll but as soon upside down I went straight away for the Pawlata. Not sure what exactly happened, was it that Rubber Duckie is a perfect fit for me or too much knee drive or too much lever, as soon I was up I went over too the other side immediately. So sorting and righten up, again, but this time I used the paddle as an anker at the end to stop the drive.

As the seakayak was a kind of success, Sam got my full attention to assist him with the roll. With me leading the paddle he came up, but like me, he was relying a lot on the paddle. I changed tactic, took his paddle away and wanted to exercise the hipsnap using my hands to hold on. More then ones I had to jump out of the water, over the boat and turn it, no hipsnap nor driving knee there it seems. Back to leading the paddle until Sam was tired and I got a go in my Diesel as my seakayak was now in use by another pair.

I wanted to take the tips from you in account. Really, but it didn't work. Following the blade with the eyes and head went nowhere but to the pool floor. Though suddenly something else worked. I rediscovered the backdeck and the pause on it when finishing the roll with the paddle in the normal grip. Still not in every attempt, a few times I have to rescue me with Pawlata, but some progress was made.

Sometime during the session I even tried a re-entry roll (quite sure it was with the seakayak) and was successfully with it.

The next day (surprisingly everything was dry again, even the wetboots where only damp and not wet) another pool session and no boat sharing as the pool in Inverness offered enough space so that even 20 boats can be manoeuvred in there.

Warmup with the kickboards. OH MY GOD, only the knowledge that I can do it as I had manage it before prevented the wet exit and desperation for air during the struggle which this exercise became. You can't do a proper hipsnap when the opposite knee is used to hold you in the boat. Relaxing one leg and only using the driving knee is not the easy when the boat as a footplate instead of footpegs.
Back to the backdeck and using a paddle. It was so comfortable to lean backwards and having the head laying on the boat. Watching another paddler who skulled laying back and another doing high braces, I tried the same and also to concentrate on the shoulder position doing it (parallel to the water not knife in ;) ).

For a break and to watch the coaches coaching the beginners a wee trip to the shallow part (1.10m deep). A roll attempt there ended in a wet exit (which was the current topic for the coached group anyway) as even the Pawlata didn't help. The blade went straight to the pool floor, had contact there and now idea how make use of it to push me up.

The last minutes some practising for the knee drive: laying back, moving the upper body to the right until the boat was edging, paddle in high brace position and then up again using the right knee, relaxing the left leg and with only a little paddle support. Getting a better feeling to the boat, which is really stable. Not going over as fast as the Topo.

No offence against Sam, but next week I need someone who can assist me to find my way back to a "shallow" roll and to find the error in the sweep. Also the return to the kickboards, exercising hip snaps and knee drives.

Only 3 weeks left (but now I have hope in the Pawlata roll :D )

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by lg18 »

Hi Kirsten,
If your paddle is always immediately diving now, there could be one (or more) of several things going wrong in the process. Maybe try splitting the roll into its component parts and work on each separately, rather than trying trying trying the full roll and failing and losing confidence and getting frustrated.
e.g. 1. work on the "hip snap" lots and lots on its own (e.g. by holding onto side of pool or someone's kayak, or even better someone's hands so they can tell you how much pressure you're putting on them, thus cheating and not propelry hip-snapping).
e.g. 2. work on the paddle sweeping correctly along the surface (but without trying to roll back up). Just tip over, relax, and play around with sweeping it backwards and forwards on the surface using your body rotation back and forth (then wet exit or eskimo rescue when out of breath!). Never put any pulling pressure on the paddle. If you find it difficult, try some aids to keeping the paddle on the surface to help build body memory in what body/arm position works, such as a paddle float or someone guiding your paddle. It really CAN help hugely to have a dive mask or swimming goggles to watch the paddle on the surface. This is absolutely NOT cheating, you are still learning, it is a useful training tool.

Once you've perfected the above and try putting them together into a roll, try keeping your eyes fixed on the paddle blade as you come up - that will help keep your head low. Lifting your head will kill the roll, it needs to be the last thing to leave the water.

Good luck next time!
Lucy

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by bjoern »

Hi Kirsten,
I just had a quick look at your video and skimmed over the other replies, so if I repeat what others have written, I apologize for it.
To me it seems you are doing 2 mistakes.

First:
you start rolling with your body vertically under the boat. When you are upside down, try to get your face as close to the surface of the water as you can (looking up) before you do anything with the paddle. (You were much closer at the second attempt with the extended paddle and you came up)

Second:
Before you pull down on the paddle, you have to move it to a right angle to the boat. This gives you much more leverage...

Hope this helps ;-)

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Ceegee
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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Ceegee »

Bjoern says it all, shoulders FLAT to the water, paddle at 2 o'clock to the boat axis and the roll finished by 4 o'clock

Like this:

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Chris Bolton »

Before you pull down on the paddle, you have to move it to a right angle to the boat.
Yes, indeed. My first successful roll was when I decided that all I would try to do was get the paddle out at a right angle to the boat, and still on the surface. Not pulling down, just round, and as an exercise, not to get the boat upright, just to wet exit when I'd done it. Suddenly, I was upright!

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by balltip »

Following this thread with great interest! (Only roll training I got is what I have done on my own, alone. I made it up again, twice, but that was pure coincidence. I need to learn it for real and the proper way, like you are doing.)
Looking forward to more videos, if possible. :)

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Matt P »

I started sea kayaking regularly in 2007 (nearly eight years ago), but I didn't manage to roll a short boat (in the pool) until a couple of years ago.

I then gave up trying to learn how to do it in a structured / determined way for a couple of years (tried to roll my sea boat in the sea a few times, failed), but decided to do something about it this year

I managed to get back to rolling a short boat (in the pool) after a few attempts during the first pool session in January, but I didn't manage to roll a sea kayak in the pool until last Thursday, and I finally managed to roll my sea kayak in the sea last Sunday

I'm still at the stage where I don't really know what I'm doing (don't know how much hip flick I'm using, probably not a lot) and not quite believing it whenever it works, but I was failing to roll the sea kayak because I setting up with the paddle in line with / next to the boat and pulling down instead of sweeping

This was probably what I was doing with the short boat too, but that often works with a short boat because they are shorter, lighter, sometimes rounder (the old K280s at the pool are), and sit lower in the water

When someone told me to move the paddle away from the boat before attempting the roll (with the usual about both hands out of the water + lean forward and over the side + lean right back / don't lift your head until you have rolled), I eventually managed it

Somehow, doing that forces you to sweep without thinking about it

It took several attempts in the pool, but my first attempt in the sea was successful

I do (have always done) a half-extended roll where I shift my paddle grip towards the left paddle blade instead of trying to hold the edge of the left paddle blade

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by e-wan »

I would highly recommend going on a course with Cheri and Turner from www.kayak ways.net I was in the course of they ran in Anglesey last summer which greatly improve my role. they also do a very good DVD which is also available for download "this is the role". they're going to a variety of venues around the UK this year.

I had learned to role a WW boat as a teenager but was only able to do this very inconsistently before the course last summer. I was in the pool this afternoon rolling for two hours and never had to wet exit once. i'm also finding it easier to notice where I can improve or when I make mistakes now.

there were people on the course I went on with eoro paddles as well as greenland paddles and each section of the DVD also has a bit about how to adapt rolling techniques described for use with Euro paddles.

if you do go on a course I would recommend having a rest day as I did two days in a row which was knackering

Ewan

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Re: My long way to the roll (and still going)

Post by Kirsten »

@Ewan:
I'm now able to roll my both plastic boats (a Riverrunner and a seakayak) in the pool. Still a lot of room for improvements, but usually no wet exit necessary any more. I have to take the roll now into the sea, loch and on the river.

I was in a Rolling Course last October, to get the basic. It was a weekend course. I was tired the second day, but more because of hours in the water (even a pool is not feeling this warm after a while) and a lot of time upside down, holding my breath.

In the club are quite a few coaches and some of them are really good in explaining, demonstrating and analysing. It is more the problem to find time during the main outdoor season to get hold of them and having a kind of private session with them (maybe just a few minutes at the end of a trip).

A one day course in a group makes not much sense to correct mistakes when there is more then one bad habit and a lot of other things to take into account. More important is the practise afterwards. For me it is one thing to see a video and to do it by mself.
At the start of learning the sweep roll I needed the video to get an understanding for what I should do and why and how it should look like.

At the moment I'm in a quite confusing state. I know the theory, but started to think far too much about what I'm doing and struggle to keep all things in mind, but stop thinking is not working for me (for this I have to be really tired or in an emergency situation). With setting the date for the 3star assessment I set myself under pressure and since then its getting worst (and to be in new team at work with a new task and more responsibility istn't helpful at all).
-------------------------------------

The Thursday evening started quite relaxed. 1.5hours to get to the storage, attaching the craddle rack to the car, loading two boats and 21miles drive to Alness should be enough time. It wasn't, as loading and securing the boats took longer and then I was stucked behind a wide load.

I was late at the pool (with two others who were also stucked behind the wide load), the pairs for the day already formed (and the scheduled partner practising with someone else) and I was then with Sam again. My fears become true, asking Sam to lead the paddle during the sweep phase was worst then the attempts without assistance.
Luckily I could catch one of the coaches (even Alness is a peer session) to show how to lead the paddle. At least this was my intention, though not the one for the coach, he let me to the roll on my own to see what went wrong.
Beside the fact with the shoulders diving, he pointed out why my blade was diving. When in setup position I'm fine, stretching the arms as far as I can but during the sweep I lift my left arm far further up then my right arm as the right arm is doing the sweep. But this lift on the left side is forcing the paddle to dive. ( when writing this, I just recognize that I also take my right arm down which means I not doing a sweep at all).

So I was asked to show my setup, but still in upright position. Not easy when the rolling knee is engaged and the boat is easily to going over. It was impossible for me to get the hands this deep in the water as their should.
The coach brought a river boat into the pool and asked me to jump out of my seakayak into the WW boat, if I fit in. Quite tight but it was possible. Paddle away and taking coaches hands in mine to practising the shoulder floatation. This was working. Sliding on and of the backdeck, support with rolling knee, the hands of the couch less used.

Now the paddle in the hands and trying to solve the problem with the left hand pushing the paddle up resp. down. I wasn't even close to leave the hand at the same place along the hull but shoulders weren't diving this much anymore. Though another bad habit from the very first rolls starts re-occured: hesitating during the sweep. In the moment my upperbody (and shoulders) are untwisted I paused a wee moment thinking about the next step.
Enough input for the day, I left the boat and took over my part as peer and assisting my buddy.

The next day I had a lot of muscle memory, probably not the kind you have in mind. I was feeling old, stiff and tired. But I was in time at the pool with my Diesel, able to help to get the clubboats out of the storage and some chats with the booked students.

Warmup with the kickboards ended in a wet exit. Don't know exactly what went wrong as after emptying the boat and back again, some practise on the pool side before using the kickboards for another attempt. These were fine. I practise the shoulder float, so laying on the backdeck, sliding in the water, fully capsize, holding onto the boards, engaging rolling knee, wee push on the board during the hipsnap, sliding on the backdeck and uprighten the body when the boat was upright.
A few attempts on the left side, but all failed. Right hand side is fine. Now with paddle with attention to keep the left hand low, no hesitating after the setup, rolling over backdeck.
Too much things to think about. No attempt ended in a wet exit or a rescue, but the majority with a Pawlata roll.

I paddled into the shallow end to one of the coached groups and caught me one of the students who was a little bit on her own (paddling in a straight line) when her coach was practising with a second one. Then we swapped students and I was introducing this person to floating shoulders, rolling knee and eskimo rescue. Was interesting for myself to see and to feel with my hands how less of effort was necessary to uprighten the boat.

In the last minutes of the pool session I did some more rolling in the shallow end. Still struggling with normal paddle position (diving blade and hesitating), but at least when uprighten with the Pawlata roll I didn't touched the ground like it happened last week.

One of the coaches told me that during the setup my blade was not over the watersurface (it was instead a hand-wide below), so he took my paddle when I was upside down to splash it on the surface. I didn't got the paddle proper above the water surface without help, have to check whether it will easier wearing a BA which helps my body float.

Saturdaymorning was the proof that I stretched my (right) arm as far as I could, that I used the right knee, body rotation and hipsnap, all the effected muscle were protesting. (is this what is called "muscle memory"? *gg*) At least no pain in the wrist and nothing in the shoulder joint. (Today is worst, even simulating a setup sitting on a chair is a torture).

Next week seakayak pool session on Thursday and riverrunner on Friday (though I think I will take this session very easy and be more watching the coaches coaching than being half of the time head under water). On Saturday the rehearsal on a club trip: towing and the second chance to roll Rubber Duckie in real (cold) conditions.

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