Kayak sailing^

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
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saiingneil
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Kayak sailing^

Post by saiingneil » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:54 pm

So this kayak sailing malarkey is it worth it? I am a keen sailor as well as a kayaker and was wondering if I should consider marrying the 2 pastimes togther?

Also do any sailing set up work on a plastic sea kayak? I have a Scorpio if that makes any difference.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:46 pm

Neil you should have been at the Flat water symposium! It was F4 in the morning and F5 in the afternoon. Plenty of fun only two capsizes and I know at least three people have subsequently bought sails.

The Scorpio will paddle sail great and poly construction is no problem, very easy to drill holes in actually.

Some paddle sailing tips here

http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... -when.html

http://seakayakphoto.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... cking.html

The biggest buzz about paddle sailing is that it allows you to catch more and faster waves than you can using paddle alone.

Douglas :o)

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by gnarlydog » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:32 am

I find sea kayak sailing great fun.
Here is a video of sailing in a variety of conditions: http://youtu.be/P21uMgpWs3g
On trips of several weeks I can do longer daily distances and get to camp much more relaxed.

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saiingneil
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by saiingneil » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:00 am

Thanks for the replies. Douglas, I looked into going to the Flat water symposium but unfortunately it was a busy weekend at my work

Neil.

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by ruralweb » Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:16 pm

I've a plastic kayak and never go anywhere without my sail fitted.
Mal

cp70
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by cp70 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 9:02 pm

Any boats that are not so good for kayak sailing?

'Ocean Play' boats seem to be de rigueur for this.

I have a beaten up old Nordy Jubilee, (with adjustable skeg) which I am fixing up and am wondering if this would be suitable. It certainly isn't a Delphin/Aries =0)

Thanks,

Clem

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by gnarlydog » Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:04 am

I found that kayaks with a narrow bow are harder to install a sail where the side stays angles is narrow and the mast collapses sideways easier (that is with Flat Earth sails). Careful adjustment of stays length is usually necessary
I also found that flat bottomed kayaks drift sideways in a beam wind than kayaks with a deeper V keel (P&H Quest for example)
Flat bottomed kayaks however sail nicely downwind where they start to plane on the waves and surf
I like short rockered kayaks for steep short waves, longer straight tracking kayaks for speed in less dynamic waters
My Point 65N XP is faster than my Aquanaut in beam wind but the Aquanaut is better for choppy deep waves (tidal race) when wind blows from behind

nicholas
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by nicholas » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:01 am

You will wonder Why you did not get one sooner.

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saiingneil
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by saiingneil » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:08 am

Don't suppose anyone has a second hand flat earth sail or rig they are looking to sell?

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by ruralweb » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:26 am

Give geof a call at Karitek as he may have some of the pre code zero sails on sale.
Mal

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:41 pm

Hi Clem Gnarly has given an excellent description of how different hull shapes perform and compare.

Image
I have done a lot of paddle sailing in a Nordkapp LV and it is great I think you will find the Jubilee just fine,

Image
I was able to use existing RDFs for the side stays on the Nordkapp LV.

Have fun!

Douglas

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saiingneil
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by saiingneil » Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:27 pm

Thanks Ruralweb, gave them a call today and have purchase their last XP 0.9. Unfortunately the mast and rigging will need to wait a wee while due to the bank manager. But I am looking forward to blasting about using the wind. You will know its me if you see me as I will be the one with a blue sail on a orange boat, colour coordination was never my strong point!

Neil

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by ruralweb » Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:18 pm

That's great Niel - welcome to the club. My tip is to look at how Douglas has rigged his mast in the pictures above and use that rather than the Karitek method of having two support lines running up to the cockpit which can slip and make rigging more problematic than it need be IMO, it also reduces the number of holes you need to drill in your boat.
Mal

e-wan
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by e-wan » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:54 am

i would presume a leeboard is rather impractical.

also, as a sailor i am find it hard to envisage how one can hold a close haled course while in a kayak cockpit without healing over and capsizing. I know there is no centreboard or keel but even trying to sail a reefed dingy to windward with the centreboard up in anything over a force 3 i find requires some degree of hiking out to trim the boat flat. How does this work while kayak sailing to windward?

Ewan

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saiingneil
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by saiingneil » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:52 pm

A leeboard isn't such a far out as you think Euan.

http://www.youtube.com/#/watch?v=e3u4L6y9e7M

Douglas how did your experiment go with replacing the stainless steel deck fittings with specta cord?

nicholas
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by nicholas » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:30 am

I did not buy the deck kit I sourced the bits myself and saved 50 quid.
I also used spectra/dyneena for the deck fittings instead of having hard
Metal fittings on my boat and it works really well.
The two millimetre dyneena has 450 kg breaking strain (probably to strong)

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:01 pm

Ewan>
as a sailor I am find it hard to envisage how one can hold a close haled course while in a kayak cockpit without healing over and capsizing.
A long kayak like a Cetus MV or Nordkapp LV will point at about 45 degrees to the wind without a leeboard or forward central fin while paddle sailing. Your paddle strokes keep it upwind. They also supply righting force to resist heeling to leeward especially if you use a canted stroke (top edge of paddle further back. Wing paddles are very good for this. You also do need to lean your body a bit to windward so your core muscles get a real work out.

Sailingneil>
Douglas how did your experiment go with replacing the stainless steel deck fittings with specta cord?
Image
This has worked out really well...

Image
...I also use surface deck fittings.

Douglas

cp70
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by cp70 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:37 pm

Gnarley Dog:

Thanks for your reply and it succinctly illustrated the differences between kayak types. I read the article on sail set up on your blog with interest and it gives an alternative view to Douglas's. Do you think that having the stays that much higher allows more leverage on the mast foot? I have a fairly limited knowledge of physics though, sadly.
Also enjoyed the fantastic kayak sailing videos. Thanks.

Douglas:

Thank you for your opinion and the pictures. I read your blog entry also and it seems that my Jubilee's RDF layout is the same as the LV's. (Don't know why I'm surprised!) This means that I seem to get away with the minimum of drilling =0) It also means that I have a bespoke fitting guide, for a rig that appears simple and very functional, even with options listed on fittings. I just need to finish the boat off and order the sailing rig. Thanks again.

Clem.

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by gnarlydog » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:52 am

Do you think that having the stays that much higher allows more leverage on the mast foot? I have a fairly limited knowledge of physics though, sadly.
My knowledge of physics isn't great but my findings and experience have revealed that having the stays further up the mast helps having a sturdier rig.
After hearing of several cases of mast failing and Kari-Tek advising not to use the Flat Earth in winds above 20 knots (or is it even less?) I realize that the stays below the boom junction are the weak link.
I have bent an aluminium mast even with my set up so now I only use carbon fibre ones.
Some say that they would rather have a broken mast then a broken deck therefore all my kayaks have a reinforced under deck. Seeing a flexing deck when the mast is loaded is not something I am prepared to compromise with.
As for the other benefits of having the stays further up the mast, I guess you have read my blog articles.

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:10 am

I use a different rigging method to both Gnarly and Karitek. Each method has advantages and disadvantages. Gnarly's set up is very stable but has the disadvantage of not being able to let the sail go and let the boom fly in front of the mast to depower in an emergency it also reduces the efficiency of the sail upwind as you need to cut a slot in the mast sleeve luff. The disadvantage of my set up is that it requires two side stays at right angles to the mast and a back stay. Karitek uses a simpler two rear set stays method with the stays' length adjusted by cleats at the cockpit. This is cheap as it does not need expensive snap shackles but the lines do slip in winds of about 20 knots. Most newcomers will not be paddle sailing in 20 knots so the Karitek system is an ideal introduction.

At the recent flatwater symposium 24 people tried paddle sailing in force 4 to 5 winds. Most had no previous sailing experience in any kind of craft.. Because it was a relatively small inland loch it was possible to run the sessions due to the flat water. There were some gear failures. All happened when the rig was in the water. One UJ broke after a big strong paddler tried to right his kayak without releasing the sheet or the up haul. In two other similar cases the Karitek supplied deck mounts broke. Although these are held in place by a stainless steel bolt the mount is made of plastic which gave way. Again I think this is a great feature of the Karitek kit for beginners, either the mast, mast foot or deck would have given way otherwise. As a more experienced paddle sailor I prefer to use mounts for the stays that will not give way. However, I would instinctively free the sheets before I tried to right the kayak. The Karitek supplied cleats have a built in fairlead which means that even if you pull the sheet out of the cleat it is likely to recleat itself as the sheet runs out through the fairlead. This happened in at least two instances at the symposium the capsized paddlers thought they had uncleated the sheets.

Image
I prefer an open cleat with no fairlead. Karitek also stock these.

P&H now supply their kayaks with a patch of reinforcement round the compass recess area where the mast foot will be mounted. I have suggested to Graeme Mackereth that extra RDFs be moulded in that would allow direct fitting of stays and provide screw attachment for the mast foot without drilling holes. The RM Delphin has a very strong deck and I have not reinforced that. One thing to be aware of is if you put your sail up in a blow then raft up with several others without sails you will really put a heavy load on your rig.

Part of the fun is experimenting to find something that suits you. One of the symposium participants who had just bought a sail had come up with an ingenious mount for the back stay. It was a simple fairlead with a line through it. The forward end of the line had a loop on it to which the backstay snapshakle was fixed. About 15cm further aft on the line there was a large knot (aft of the fairlead) which prevented it being pulled forward. The aft end of the line led back to the cockpit where the end was tied to a deck elastic. The purpose of this is to act as a downhaul to collapse the rig towards you if you are overpowered sailing down wind. Very clever. I achieve the same effect by having the loose end of the uphaul line go under the deck elastic nearest the cockpit then forward to be tied onto the back stay.

Douglas


Douglas

cp70
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by cp70 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:12 pm

Gnarly Dog:

Thanks for the reply, it was just a thought re. the mast base, I'm sure that your bespoke mast base fitting irons out any possible issues anyway.
I think that I read your original set up report, and that there were responses to it, regarding cases of the mast base fittings failing. Either due to individual items not being up to scratch, or that particular brand's model which was involved was not up to the job. Sorry I read the blog items a little while ago, so I apologise if I am wrong. I've since looked a bit harder at your blog.
I guess I was thinking that if the point where the mast was stepped was a relatively fixed point higher up, would it effectively be a pivot point and therefore increase stress on the mast foot, the other end of the see-saw so to speak. As I said physics isn't my strong point =0)
It's good that your extensive experience tells us otherwise. Thanks again.

Douglas:

Thanks for the additional report on the Newbies at The Flat Water Symposium. Being a beginner, to kayak sailing at least, I favour your set up regarding being able to let the sail go, in order to de-power it.
I do quite like the stopper knot idea for a rear stay downhaul. One thing I'm not sure that I do like is a bending mast. I appreciate that it is a safety feature as such, but I plan to do something to strengthen the deck anyway. Are the masts easy to straighten? Or is it not worth it? Have you re-enforced yours or did you see no need to?


Kind Regards,
Clem

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by ruralweb » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:47 pm

With regard to masts bending I think I was the first to report this problem to Karitek after a friend and I were sailing in a F5 gusting F8 and both our masts bent slightly. Mine still has a slight bend in it but I dont think its a huge problem ie masts snapping. After chatting to Geof at Karitek I noticed that he had put the warning on the website about sailing in F5+ winds.

Checkout this https://www.facebook.com/cackletv which shows a deck fitting ripped out - Ive used my sail on a plastic boat which has super strong deck however Ive just gotten a new boat with much thinner construction so the subject of mounting is at the top of my list of things to do.
Mal

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gnarlydog
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by gnarlydog » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:49 pm

To add complexity to this physics exercise I have been informed of Justine Curgenven latest problem with her sail set up.
I have seen a photograph of the anchor stay pulling out of the deck: a large chunk of fibreglass ripped out (with deck fitting attached) leaving a hole behind. She posted an image on FaceBook.

Again, I am no engineer but it made me think of the angle of those stay anchors and loads exerted with the sail deployed.
The lower the stays are mounted onto the mast the greater the force pulling on the stay anchor on the deck?
Furthermore the stay deck anchor was on top of the deck, not on the side gunnels/seam.
I prefer to have a load in shear than having the stay pull out vertically on a chopped strand deck.
As I mentioned before: I recommend reinforcing light lay-up laminates.

The sail mast bases that I adopted originally on my set ups were the stainless steel tiller extension joiners; very solid but could bind in some angles/loads. I cracked one deck that way and later adopted the polymer tiller extension (same as Flat Earth is using now). Flat Earth further developed the sliding mast base which I regard a brilliant idea. Unfortunately the implementation of that idea by the Kari-Tek (the sample I saw) has faults as the polymer was simply shaved down and jammed into the tube. The two separated when I was using them.
On my rigs I use epoxy glue to bond the polymer into a carbon tube: solid. I need a heat gun to separate the two.

Haddock
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Haddock » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:27 am

gnarlydog wrote:To add complexity to this physics exercise I have been informed of Justine Curgenven latest problem with her sail set up.
I have seen a photograph of the anchor stay pulling out of the deck: a large chunk of fibreglass ripped out (with deck fitting attached) leaving a hole behind. She posted an image on FaceBook.
Yes it's pretty standard in sailing that the smaller your shroud base (i.e. the area the wires attach to the boat) the higher the load needed to keep the mast in place. A small shroud base with the below the gooseneck option (and the leverage extra it entails) is quite likely to damage unreinforced deck areas. Bear in mind that even small sailing dinghies can have rig loads of over quarter of a ton (and higher with shock loading)...

I played around with a homemade rig on my Scupper Pro last year and put the rig further back in the boat so the shrouds could be further apart and took the forestay all the way forward so the angle was as shallow as possible - makes pulling it up a lot easier too...

[vimeo]http://vimeo.com/57357961[/vimeo]

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Douglas Wilcox
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:46 am

Not counting the West Coast Paddlers fleet of 10 I have supervised the fitting of 22 Flat Earth rigs. Not one has suffered a failure. Like Gnarly I like to reinforce the deck of light layup GRP boats. I also agree about mounting the shroud fitting as far laterally as possible.
Image

I also had an early Karitek polymer tendon pull out of the inner mast foot tube. I understand from Geoff that they are now glued in.

In racing dinghies that allow variable shroud heights (such as 505's and Cherubs) lower shroud heights are used in heavier winds (I think to increase the amount of twist off in the mast above).

In a small rig like the FE I think the difference in force/angle is unlikely to be very significant regardless of where the shrouds are attached. Much the most important factor is the strength of the deck where you have chosen to fit the mast foot and shroud attachments. If you have not ordered a reinforced layup from the manufacturer do it yourself. As far as I know neither Gnarly or myself have suffered a deck failure but we both reinforce our decks. The only boat I have not reinforced is the Delphin which due to its peaked foredeck is very strong.

The RM Chatham 16 has a much more flexible deck.
Image
I shaped a pillar of minicell foam to support its mast foot. It has survived F4 gusting 5 so far.

Douglas

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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Graham T » Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:59 am

Hi Douglas in the 505 the prime reason for dropping the height of the hounds was to reduce prebend into the mast for sails with low luff round. the trapeze attachment points were normally left high to help support the mast laterally.
Some used "tweakers" to lower the trapeze height for heavy weather having a similar effect as your glass windsurfer batten when used as a mast I suspect

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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Graham T » Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:33 am

I would not expect the forstay points to fail nor the back stay when used. The side stay or shroud position could I suspect on many kayaks be taken off a "bridle" formed of a loop using two standard location fittings per side

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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by Douglas Wilcox » Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:21 am

Hi Graham, I tried the bridle idea initially. The problem is the taper at the bows, the front RDF is very close to the midline. On the kayaks I tried this meant the "mounting" was too far inboard to provide enough support. That is why Gnarly and I prefer mounting as far outboard as possible. It might work on a kayak with broad bows though.

Douglas

ruralweb
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by ruralweb » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:29 pm

My current boat - Perception Essence I have not had to do any extra reinforcing and it is 110% rock solid having done many hours of sailing over the last year. However my new boat - Eddyline Fathom is a much thinner construction and so is requiring very careful consideration of mounting/rigging points.
Mal

e-wan
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Re: Kayak sailing

Post by e-wan » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:29 pm

Douglas

I found myself thinking that you blog post about forward fins to reduce leeway seemed a little far-fetched and have noticed a date 1/4/14? just wondering if there is a connection there?


for alternative kayak sailing rigs I have long wanted to try one of these
http://www.intcanoe.org.uk/index.php?op ... &Itemid=60

but the closest I've got so far is sailing an RS 600

Ewan

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