Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

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JulesT
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Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

Post by JulesT » Fri Mar 07, 2014 6:40 pm

I'm considering a new sea kayak and fancy one of these beauties - I hope to get a good paddle in each in the coming months.
I'd be interested to hear readers views on the differences between them and what type of paddler each might suit. To try and clarify my requirements here's a little background:

After a season of trying many sea kayaks in 2005 I bought a Rockpool Alaw Bach when they first came out - it was excellent; then moved onto a Rockpool GT, good, but it had some features I didn't like. Sold that and bought a Delphin which I plan to keep, hard to beat for a plastic playboat. I'm not a super fit and strong paddler but I do enjoy a blast with wing paddles and on club outings I'm usually nearer the front than the back but in saying that after a 20 mile trip I'm well done in as I don't do that much paddling. I especially like catching the ocean swell in a following sea and have a feel for it, continually changing cadence to suit. I also use a flat earth sail. I'd like to use the new boat for some downwind fun on day trips and for expeditions and will probably fit a sail.

From what I've gathered the Taran is perhaps more suited to the strongest most skilled paddlers and the Pace 17 is perhaps more forgiving and suited to paddlers with slightly lesser ability but I could be wrong.

So I look forward to readers experience and views - especially as there doesn't seem to be much feedback on the Pace 17 (one here http://sixknots.net/2013/07/23/sixknots-on-lundy/)
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Mr Ed » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:58 pm

Both nice boats. Haven't really seen a Pace 17 up close or paddled one. The Taran 16 I had a play in was nicely put together and super quick and the rudder was a bit of a revelation. My only criticism was that the cockpit seemed tight and it was a shin scraper getting legs in and out but then i'm quite tall with long legs!

Probably best to get a test drive of both somewhere if you can.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by stormkayaker » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:21 pm

Contact Tiderace North West http://www.yamba.org.uk/
info@yamba.org.uk
or
Tiderace South-West: tiderace@seaborne.net

for Tiderace demo's.

Paul.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by swagstaff » Fri Mar 07, 2014 10:27 pm

There are 2 others that are similar, the Epic 18 and the Zegul Velocity. There are plenty of Epic 18's around and the new style rudder works really well. The cockpit is plenty big enough. The Zegul Velocity I have only tried on flat water but it was well made and the new distributor is close to you. Both kayaks are easy to paddle.
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JulesT » Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:54 pm

The Epic 18 is well known but the Zegul Velocity is a new one on me - it looks good and will have to factor that into the shortlist.
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Mark R » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:15 am

Here you go, I jotted down what little I know about the Velocity...
http://southwestseakayaking.co.uk/2014/ ... -velocity/
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JulesT » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:36 am

Mark: thanks for that, although you say you couldn't compare it against the other boats mentioned can you say any major pros and cons in comparison with the Cetus? How about in a following sea or rough / windy conditions? Would you now always take it out in preference to the Cetus ? (unless taking photos)

Swagstaff:
and the new distributor is close to you
having difficulty locating that dealer can you elaborate?

Does anyone out there own a Pace 17 ? - feedback welcome

Plenty of rave reviews on the Taran but would be interested to hear from any non-elite owners !
Jules

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Jim » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:50 am

I may be prolific, but I'm not elite. I also haven't tried any of the other boats so have no basis for a comparison.

The Taran is nice, I liked it enough to decide to buy one and I recommend you try to get a demo before making a decision.

I have spoken to John about it quite a bit so I know his goals and I believe he achieved them. The intent was a fast boat that is easier to paddle in rough water than the other fast boats at the time (inuk, rapier, epic 18x etc.) to make it more suitable for long unsupported crossings. Part of the long unsupported crossings requirement is that an elite paddler will be stable enough to stop and take a pee - which I understand John can in the Taran, and Mark reported being able to do in the velocity - personally I doubt if I am good enough to do that!

From my perspective the Taran is light (OK I went for high spec construction, but even standard is light), fast, and has loads of volume to carry camping kit. For someone who can already paddle it is relatively stable on account of the flat section in the bottom, which also makes it easy to get in and out of (and of course the keyhole cockpit and high foredeck help with this too - especially compared to my O2 cockpit Sea King).

It probably is not suitable for a complete beginner, stability is a relative thing and I accept that others find the Sea King unstable which I was always happy with so my perception of stability may differ from yours. I think the Taran is easier than the Sea King, but make no mistake, I still have to keep my wits about me when taking photos, I can't just sit back and forget about staying upright.

There are clearly a bunch of new boats to choose from, whether they were inspired by the Taran or the designers had similar ideas around the same time - one might expect some of them to be more refined and others perhaps less refined but I think it is going to come down to personal preference rather than one boat is better than another.

My thoughts are that Cheshire (if your avatar info is accurate) is relatively close to Anglesey (when I collected my Taran I used Cheshire as a staging post) and that it must be possible to demo the Taran and the Pace on Anglesey, possibly in the company of the designers.

In the Oban sea kayak race last year I was beaten by Michal and Natalie both paddling their Pace 17's, there must be more info about the boats on their blog?

Another boat you might want to look at is the Northshore Ocean - not in the same vein but reported to be damn fast with a more conventional look (a couple of those beat me last year too!).

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by GraemeB » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:27 pm

I've just ordered a pace 17, previously had a Greenlander pro.

I spent a good morning Demoing the pace and its a nice boat, well built and finished. Stability is a personal thing, I also do a bit of mediocre marathon and sprint paddling so I paddle a K1 as well so my perspective on stability is maybe a bit different. I'm 6'1 and pretty long legged and there is enough room for me. As this is a boat in which I'll be paddling with other folk a super fast boat isn't essential, but I did want a boat which had a better water line length. I paddled it with wings and a normal paddle no issues with either. It's an easily driven boat, no GPS with me but the sprint speed is quite high. I handles well with the rudder and without, responding well to edging.

I've paddled the Taran and the Epic as well. Liked both but preferred the Pace. It's a personal thing, very subjective. The best way is to get a Demo. One observation I would make was that two of us went to demo the Pace, one with a sea touring back ground and me with sea and some racing and I think we were both looking for different things out of the boat. We both ordered one at the end of the day which suggests it might tick a lot of boxes.

Mine arrives at the end of the month....I am counting the days.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Mark R » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:48 pm

JulesT wrote:Mark: thanks for that, although you say you couldn't compare it against the other boats mentioned can you say any major pros and cons in comparison with the Cetus? How about in a following sea or rough / windy conditions? Would you now always take it out in preference to the Cetus ? (unless taking photo)
I think I've pretty much answered all of your questions in the blog post, if you read carefully...

Both fine in a following sea with appropriate use of edging and skeg/ rudder. Both pretty horrible without. Unsurprisingly, turning the Velocity into strong wind from a standing start is a pretty grim experience.

From my little experience of the Taran, I would guess that Jim's comments about it being good in rough water (relatively for a very long pointy race-style boat, that is) are fair comment.

Another *extremely* important factor of paddling these 'fast' boats is that they're pretty anti-social...

*If you're paddling with folk who want to stop, explore, poke around...you feel a bit silly, as you can't do as much.

*On the straight, there is a pretty good chance that you'll leave the others behind...yes, you've spent lots of money on a boat which will make you go faster, but you can't in practice go faster. Or at least, you find yourself waiting around a lot, which is less comfy in a less stable fast boat than it might be in a stable normal boat.

*If you're in a position of taking responsibility for others - and frankly, you always should be - then paddling one of these boats arguably compromises this in all sorts of ways. In tricky conditions, you might find that - being in a less manoeuvrable and less stable craft than the norm - you are more preoccupied with preserving your own safety and less able to go to the aid of others. They are probably also less effective for carrying out rescues, although I haven't tried this myself yet.

All worth bearing in mind, before you decide that you absolutely *must* have a faster boat.
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JuanChanKane » Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:39 pm

Hi Jules, here goes my dos centavos if it helps: My paddling buddy has an Epic 18X and I've got a Cetus. We've paddled both in all sort of conditions and I myself would pick the Cetus any day while my buddy loves his. The Epic is less stable, harder to steer but much quicker boat in flat conditions and downwind. A speedier kayak is what my friend was specifically looking for (he used to struggle to keep up, not any more!) and the Epic is way faster, he is reeeally happy now. On the downside, he now 'always' uses the rudder for turning and in rough conditions he works and braces considerably more than me.
Comparing it with the Cetus, the latter is a great all rounder, really versatile and it truly shines in big seas, turns easily and is stable and confidence inspiring when in any condition.
P&H Cetus HV -Aleutian paddle -Peak UK apparel

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Jim » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:53 pm

Mark R wrote:*If you're in a position of taking responsibility for others - and frankly, you always should be - then paddling one of these boats arguably compromises this in all sorts of ways. In tricky conditions, you might find that - being in a less manoeuvrable and less stable craft than the norm - you are more preoccupied with preserving your own safety and less able to go to the aid of others. They are probably also less effective for carrying out rescues, although I haven't tried this myself yet.
Interesting perception.

I can't say I have ever felt that paddling my Taran compromised my ability to help others, but I have never yet needed to so maybe it's something that is simply absent from my considerations?
With the rudder up the Taran is fairly maneuverable, but at a standstill in a strong wind could be tricky to turn on the spot - never really tried that. I honestly can't think of any reason I would have more trouble performing a rescue in the Taran over my Sea King - the deck of the Sea King is stronger but there are better ways to rescue sea kayaks than hauling them over your own deck.

You may very well have a point, but it has hitherto evaded my imagination!

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by MYSSAK » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:04 am

It has been interesting reading sofar about "speed machines" and especially their limitations and drawbacks. I can't resist to add my perspestictive as well.

I bought Pace 17 for the same reasons and same purposes as Xplore L previously. I wanted a touring boat which can be paddled daily in any conditions, for few hours or several weeks. I wasn't disapointed, it simply took everything what Xplore had to the new level. Pace 17 is faster, more manoeuverable, more spaceous and easier to pack, the list is quite long. But more importantly it is a fun kayak to paddle in any conditions, flat or rough. Even in times when other kayaks become slaguish and a chore to move forward, the Pace is just flying. In rough conditions when in other kayaks one had to look for points of stability, the Pace just moves forward using the various bumbs to slide and surf. Maybe it is the speed in which the boat could move that makes it stable? And yes, we have many photos taken in a Pace in rougher conditions, so no problem to stop and take my hands of it.
I have almost forget, I never hesitated to use my DSLR in Pace and never had to think about peeing twice:)

Although we have few other kayaks, if we not purely rock hopping, we now mostly paddle the Pace. I think Natalie tried her Xplore once for pure sentiment but never went back to use it since.

Hope this helps.

Michal

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by GregMiller » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:27 pm

Hi Jules,
Like others, I think you have to try them out to see what one suits you best.
I've had a Taran 18 for a couple of years now along with a Nordkapp LV and a Delphin. I love them all individually for their pros and cons and tend to pick the one best suited to the days paddling.

If I was to go for a fast tourer then all of the boats mentioned would be worth a look. One I would also consider would be the Taran 16. Nobody seems to have pitched that as an idea yet. Was there any reason you stated the 'full size' in the post?When I tried the 16 at Skye last year it was almost as fast as the 18 but seriously more manoeuvrable. The demo version was also fitted with a flat earth sail and I'm sure this would have been great to have a blast with. I just didn't have time.

Just try them all (if you can) and see which one you love.
Everything's personal so be your own judge and see what suits you best.

G

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JulesT » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:18 pm

Thanks all for your input, hoping now for some good demos...
Any other input welcome !
Jules

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by soundoftheseagull » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:05 pm

The Taran is a phenomenal kayak. I have had one and the 16 on loan for many weeks. I cannot comment on the other. It's fast, Rockpool quality and I,m fully taken by the rudder. I have a Gt and for me it's sufficient for touring, I,m considering the Taran 16. Consider the fact that it's very fast and unless you paddle with other Taran owners you will be either lonely or have to hold back. If you want to circumnavigate the UK it's the one. Also great laden and interesting when not. As always try before you Huey good luck.
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by flat earth sails » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:13 pm

Iv just picked up a new pace 17, it's going to be yoused as an expedition boat, good carrying capacity , over the next cupal of weeks I'm going to be fitting it out and will be video my progress. A sail install a pump and a new foot plat and peddles, I think all the pommy boats iv tested have the same foot pegs , ther crap to youse ther are beter alternatives out ther.
It's shaping up to be a grate alrounder , and very stable and manuverabel .
I'm also geting a delphen in the next cupal of weeks il be reporting on the fit out on it to.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Maarten Z » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:09 pm

I'm also fancying one of these faster touring boats...
Any comment on the durability differences between the two? This might be a more generic Rockpool vs Tiderace discussion.
I noticed my Alaw Bach (standard construction) is not particularly happy with the occasional mishaps resulting in exposed fibreglass and subsequent gelcoat repairs. I'm thinking to start using my Romany S when I expect rocky landings etc which seems to have a softer (less brittle) and thicker gelcoat. Obviously, it is also heavier and - for me - less comfortable.

I don't think a "scratch the gelcoat" test is an option when taking out a demo boat so I'll have to rely on your opinions..

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Mark R » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:31 pm

Any boat is going to start deteriorating if you bash it about...buy plastic if that's your intention.
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Maarten Z » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:31 pm

Well, yes, of course they will... I'm just experiencing that my Rockpool needs to be treated with more care compared to the SKUK and am fishing for more information on how Tiderace boats are on this aspect.
As I heard that the boats from Michal and Natalie were still in good shape after their circumnavigation and have seen John Willacy's patched Taran it got me wondering. This article more or less says the same.

I'm not going to bash the boats 'intentionally'. Rockhopping is not really viable on this side of the channel. :-)
The last unfortunate mishap was when putting the boat on the rack in my club. Next to teaching me to treat the Alaw Bach more carefully, it also reminded me to pad the rack a bit more... The result was a missing chip of gelcoat about 1cm² which seemed too big a penalty for such a small bump.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Jim » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:57 pm

Thicker gelcoat usually chips and cracks more easily.

On an epoxy boat, chipping the gelcoat really doesn't matter apart from aesthetics.

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Re: Rockpool Tarans vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JulesT » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:03 pm

With one thing and another have so far only demoed Pace 17 on Ullswater - arranging a sea demo in May

Greg said:
One I would also consider would be the Taran 16
Having read up on this Greg has a valid point here, it sounds quicker than the length would suggest and according to the specs its 16' 8" (5.08m) which is not far off the 5.22 of the Pace.

Anyone like to add anything on the Taran 16 ?
Jules

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Re: Rockpool Tarans vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Maarten Z » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:22 pm

JulesT wrote:With one thing and another have so far only demoed Pace 17 on Ullswater - arranging a sea demo in May
Anyone like to add anything on the Taran 16 ?
I flatwater tested the Taran 16 a couple of weeks ago and overall I liked it. It was my first test of a racing type sea kayak and really enjoyed concentrating on the forward stroke and let the rudder to the rest. I used my Lendal touring (non-wing) paddle which seemed to limit the capabilities, as others have mentioned numerous times here.

Two things that hold me back from buying a local stock Taran 16 which otherwise suits my wishes (even the color is right):
- the seat would need aggressive adaptation (cutting wheel) since my tailbone was rather painfull after 12km. Mike Webb admitted that there's more people having this and when there's time they will look into it. There are possibilities, but being so far from the factory is not helping to test those possibilities. Somehow I don't like the idea of buying a new boat and having to gut the glass. Especially since the seat is glued in.
- handling the boat off the water alone was a bit of a struggle. Maybe because I was extra carefull since it was privately owned, but it sure felt heavy compared to my Alaw Bach. It was a standard construction by the way. I will have to do the occasional lifting on the car etc so this is not unimportant to me.

A shop in the neighbourhood currently has the Pace 17 on stock for demo (only 1). If I get there in time before it gets sold I'm hoping that it will behave like a Taran, minus the items above.

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Re: Rockpool Tarans vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by JulesT » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:56 pm

Hi Maarten,
I will have to do the occasional lifting on the car

After injuring my forearm here's my solution

Before getting a Delphin and sitting in it in the shop I had my doubts about the seat, it seemed to turn up to quickly at the rear and cause a pressure point on one's derrière. But when paddling with a good forward stroke I find that I do lean forward a bit and there isn't a problem in use.

However, I do sympathise - many seats aren't right. I hope to try a Taran next week so will find out first hand. I had an Alaw Bach originally and its seat was just right. After that I had a GT and had the wider Menai seat fitted and again it was good.

I have an Epic Mid-Wing hybrid construction paddle - its very very good, I would recommend it without any reservations. PS if you get a wing paddle don't get one too long. I'm 182cm tall and the paddle is 210-220 and it feels right and according to the surf ski community it is the right length see here. I also have a Greenland Paddle - they all have their pros and cons but if you really want to motor you can't beat the wing paddle, it teaches you to really rotate and use your torso.

I noticed a significant difference between the Tarans and the Pace 17, the former are fish-form and the latter is a pronounced swede-form.
Jules

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Mark R » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:18 pm

Mark R wrote:Here you go, I jotted down what little I know about the Velocity...
http://southwestseakayaking.co.uk/2014/ ... -velocity/
I added some more notes...

http://southwestseakayaking.co.uk/2014/ ... ool-taran/

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

Post by Peter_L » Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:52 am

Hi,

I own a Taran 16 which I love to paddle.
I had the chance to try the Pace 17 during the Jersey Symposium earlier this year (thanks Paul) and I think it's a fantastic kayak.
If you're looking for a little more "stability" I'd say go for the Pace 17 but do note the quotes. It is a little more stable but it's not a world of difference between the two.
With regard to speed, I think both are very fast boats and the rudder system is excellent and exactly the same on both.

I once mentioned to some fellow sea kayakers at our club, that if I would be again at the start of buying a sea kayak, I'd perhaps choose the Pace 17 over the Taran 16 because the intial feel of stability is a little better.
Owning my lovely Taran 16 now, I would never consider selling it to buy a Pace 17 because the difference is not that much.

I seriously think, choosing one over the other is an entirely personal matter and demoing both is the only way to figure out which one is the best for you.

One thing is true about both of them. Paddeling a fast kayak like these does sometimes tend to be a little "anti-social" while paddling in group. Especially in rougher conditions since both the Pace 17 and Taran 16 get more stable while paddling. Standstill in both of them is a bit more of a challenge to me but I'm getting better at this :-)
I even can take a picture from the Taran 16 in windy conditions with a waterproof point-and-shoot compact camera.

With regard to price and build, there's not much difference.
It was my Taran that Maarten tried and the seat (high back), isn't any issue to me. I did moved the footpegs a little more forward to sit more relaxed but still have enough control while bracing or rolling.

This is my personal opinion after paddling both and keep in mind: I'm not a complete beginner in sea kayaking but not a prolific one either. I'm paddling quite extensively at sea for 1,5 year now.

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

Post by flat earth sails » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:30 pm

Iv had the pace17 for a few munths now, and very much still in love with it, a cupal of desent trips in it, a lot of day trips and a lot of fitness paddling. I'm convinced that apart from rock hopping its a grate allrounder and one of the most manuverabel boats iv ownd with a huge ability to swolow up kit I have to realy think about what I'm taking , thers a risk of sliding into the trap of taking to much un needed gear . The only thing that needs to be addrest are the crap foot pegs , tiderace still need to look at arangments like epic youse, so do Rockpool . The gell cote is thiner but the things makes it mor flexibal and on a epoxy boat that's good . Thers a few vidioes of the fitout on my vimeo site .

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17

Post by Carbonius » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:31 am

Jim wrote:
Mark R wrote:*If you're in a position of taking responsibility for others - and frankly, you always should be - then paddling one of these boats arguably compromises this in all sorts of ways. In tricky conditions, you might find that - being in a less manoeuvrable and less stable craft than the norm - you are more preoccupied with preserving your own safety and less able to go to the aid of others. They are probably also less effective for carrying out rescues, although I haven't tried this myself yet.
Interesting perception.

I can't say I have ever felt that paddling my Taran compromised my ability to help others, but I have never yet needed to so maybe it's something that is simply absent from my considerations?
With the rudder up the Taran is fairly maneuverable, but at a standstill in a strong wind could be tricky to turn on the spot - never really tried that. I honestly can't think of any reason I would have more trouble performing a rescue in the Taran over my Sea King - the deck of the Sea King is stronger but there are better ways to rescue sea kayaks than hauling them over your own deck.

You may very well have a point, but it has hitherto evaded my imagination!
Hi,

I was wondering if Taran has a big rocker or not, although, i always thought it does. I have a boat that is "kindofsimilar" to boat you are comparing here right now but i haven't had a chance to try them. With my boat (its new model by Petr Major that no body knows about yet) and it has big rocker, so "to turn on the spot" is not a problem even in strong wind (10m/s, rudder up). Rocker comparison then?!

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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

Post by Mark R » Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:12 am

Here's a budget option for those looking for a 'fast' sea kayak...

http://kayaksalesuk.com/index.php/seabo ... 1rapido565
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Re: Rockpool Taran (full size) vs Tiderace Pace 17^

Post by nickcrowhurst » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:08 am

Although there's no indication on that website, the company appears to be the UK distributor for this Hungarian company: http://www.kabaikayak.hu/index.php?opti ... 08&lang=en
Nick.

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