Persuade me to buy a surf craft^

Places, technique, kayaks, safety, the sea...
Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:00 pm

And there I was, really impressed to see a helix ;-)

Zoe Newsam
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:06 am

Post by Zoe Newsam » Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:02 pm

MarkR wrote:you saw a 'felix'....
:0) Much better name, I reckon!
Zoe Newsam
Sea Kayak Guide & Mountain Leader

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:22 pm

Mark,

I've just been looking through the piccies I took yesterday. Have a look at this one..

http://bertie.joystik.co.uk/images/valley/IMGP1005.JPG

That collapse in the wave face behind your boat (the v-shaped depression in the top of the wave) is created by the amount of energy lost from the wave in pushing that boat of yours along.

Compare it to this..

http://bertie.joystik.co.uk/images/valley/IMGP1000.JPG

You'll see there's little loss of energy from the wave face, and the second boat will be travelling much faster.

More speed = more ability to go from the bottom to the top, and maybe get some of this..

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24128
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:55 pm

The fellow in the blue boat amused me by paddling past me at one point and shouting, "Get in a proper boat!". He then continued to avidly front-surf his 'proper' boat towards the left (and sometimes, towards the right!). As did everyone else in a 'proper' boat.

At the same time, my boat managed a few smallish airblunts, one back stab (surprised myself there) and a few flip turns (aka felixes). I even tried a donkey flip...but the wave was too small and it materialised as a power-capsize. I didn't manage to get anything like the air pictured in your second picture whilst on the wave, but did fluke a few clean kickflips whilst paddling out through the surf, keeping my head and body completely dry. Believe me, I'm no one's idea of a good playboater...this is just simply the stuff that people normally do in playboats these days.

Yes, I know that playboats have distinct limitations and that long boats excel in fast steep runs ahead of the shoulder. I'm not completely narrow-minded, I'd love to try a 'proper' boat on a rare day when you have 7 ft+ surf breaking in clean fast sections. But frankly, for the conditions we had (and usually get), hopping into a 'proper' boat felt like unlearning how to paddle in order to take a retro trip to 1987, when my MI 370 conquered all...
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:57 pm

Bertie.. wrote:...More speed = more ability to go from the bottom to the top, and maybe get some of this..
Or even this

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5781 ... airua8.jpg


Denzil

P.S. Anything Vince can do Darren can do bigger =P
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/2774 ... airtw4.jpg

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:05 pm

MarkR wrote:. But frankly, for the conditions we had (and usually get), hopping into a 'proper' boat felt like unlearning how to paddle in order to take a retro trip to 1987, when my MI 370 conquered all...
Or could it be that it requires a different set of skills to the ones you currently posess? So you could not airblunt? You are not going to in a Rush, it was designed by a Ski paddler that does not know what an airblunt is so why not try one of the more playboaty surf boats? Or is it that surf boaters are clearly inferior wanting to be able to surf a wave AS WELL AS pull tricks on a wave?
It sounds to me like nobody was really throwing down in the Rush on the day mabie the conditions were a bit pants or mabie as it was a Demo day nobody really got to grips with the boat. I don't know as I was not there but I d belive it would be a bit rash to give up on surf kayaks completly after have one quick go in one design of craft in one set of conditions.

Obviously it is up to you whether surf kayaking is going to be your thing or not, I just think you may be giving up abit quickly.

Denzil

User avatar
Jim
Posts: 13723
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2002 2:14 pm
Location: Dumbarton
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Post by Jim » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:51 pm

No, the point is that Mark doesn't "get it" in the way surfers always bang on about, and much prefers to do his own thing. I don't understand why it is so important for everyone to "get it" - I think I do, but at the same time I can enjoy messing around throwing wavewheels and stuff. I think a big part of the attitude problems from some surfers is that when they see kayakers having fun and not "getting it" it really upsets them because they have somehow become far too serious in their pursuit for the perfect wave ride that they actually don't enjoy the sport properly anymore.

The other big part of course is that many of the boardies are just there to pose about and they don't like be overshadowed by kayaks pulling air and going upside down and stuff.

I will just point out that I do have several friends who board surf and I often seem to end up going out with them these days, just before anyone accuses me of being anti-boards!

Jim

JohnK
Posts: 318
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:01 pm
Location: In a van somewhere on the North coast

Re: Boardies v Boaters...Why???

Post by JohnK » Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:11 pm

James F wrote:
zoenewsam wrote:Why all this stupid hostility? Where does it come from? Is it like this everywhere, or just in the SW of England? I don't understand...
How was it that you were bothing surfing the same wave? Who was nearest to the shoulder?
The simple rule is - don't drop in. Or in other words the one closest to the steepest part of the wave has right of way.

So what happens when a long craft (board / kayak / ski etc.) takes off further out and a shorter craft then picks up the wave closer to the shoulder as it moves in?

In a small crowded break the rules don't always work. Not everyone else is going to be an expert. They may not know the rules, or they may not care, or they may just not be able to control their craft.

Zoe, you experienced the equivalent of road rage. I'm sure it happens at crowded play spots as well. Don't assume you were at fault in any way. Don't let this experience put you off. Just get back out there.

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Re: Boardies v Boaters...Why???

Post by Bertie.. » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:51 am

JohnK wrote:
So what happens when a long craft (board / kayak / ski etc.) takes off further out and a shorter craft then picks up the wave closer to the shoulder as it moves in?
the short boarder gets accused ofsnaking??

User avatar
harrysk
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: N. Ireland
Contact:

Re: Boardies v Boaters...Why???

Post by harrysk » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:31 am

JohnK wrote:
So what happens when a long craft (board / kayak / ski etc.) takes off further out and a shorter craft then picks up the wave closer to the shoulder as it moves in?
This is why longboarders and kayakers are despised in the surf. Taking-off on unbroken waves and surfing through the line-up.

If you want to sit further out, you must wait for the bigger sets (and your turn) and try to catch the waves as they break, close to the shoulder. If you find yourself surfing an unbroken wave towards the line-up, with a surfer positioned for a more critical take-off, closer to where the wave will first break, you should pull off and let him (or her) have the wave.

Snaking is bad (taking waves out of turn by paddling round other surfers), but so is using your extra paddling power and early planing ability to catch all the best waves.

The "planing first" rule is a throw over from old competition rules. It has been dropped in competition and was never intended for "free" surfing. Just because you can plane first does not give you right of way.

While I'm on the subject; the competition rule of "inside surfer has right of way" being carried over into free surfing has also caused problems. Remember free surfing is not governed by the rules of competiton. For me, the primary rule is that the person who has waited the longest has right of way - the line-up exists so that people can take turns and everyone gets their fair share.

If you want to catch more waves than the surfers waiting their turn in the line-up or use the wave in a different way that means you can't play by these rules developed for safety and sharing waves equally then you should move down the beach to an empty peak.

Hope this helps,
Harry
Last edited by harrysk on Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Re: Boardies v Boaters...Why???

Post by Bertie.. » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:56 am

harrysk wrote:While I'm on the subject; the competition rule of "inside surfer has right of way" being carried over into free surfing has also caused problems. Remember free surfing is not governed by the rules of competiton.
Correct, free surfing is not 'governed' by the rules of competition surfing, however this isn't just a 'competition' rule - it has very practical application in terms of safety and minimising injury. Most of the rules are designed to avoid collisions and injuries and when kayak surfers are not aware of them (or fail to follow them) they are risking injuring themselves and others.

Unfortunately, kayakers in surf are often wearing bouyancy aids and helmets and are less likely to be injured than the surfer they hit - reducing the percieved risks associated to sharing waves, whilst at the same time increasingly using kayaks with fins which will hit others with a huge force (imagine getting in the way of three knife blades with 100kgs attached to them coming your way) - thus increasing the percieved risk to the surfer.

The result is surfers fear being hit by kayakers more than anything else out there, whilst kayakers aren't aware of the damage they can do.. IMO the reaction we get as kayakers in surf is borne out of this.

User avatar
harrysk
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: N. Ireland
Contact:

Re: Boardies v Boaters...Why???

Post by harrysk » Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:14 pm

Bertie.. wrote: Correct, free surfing is not 'governed' by the rules of competition surfing, however this isn't just a 'competition' rule - it has very practical application in terms of safety and minimising injury.
Of course you are right here Bertie.

What I was trying to say is that more skilled surfers often use this rule to claim priority on a wave when it is not their turn. Just as being able to plane first dosen't give you the right to catch any wave you like, having the ability to take-off further inside dosen't give you that right either.
But if someone does snake you and take a wave you have been waiting for you still shouldn't drop-in on them.

As Bertie says, this rule is all about safety; dropping-in is dangerous.

greensurfer
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:08 pm

Post by greensurfer » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:00 pm

Mmm just don't mix with boardies by the sound of it - then everyones happy.

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:37 am

they'd never leave the surf quietly! ;-)

User avatar
NickB
Posts: 838
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:11 am
Location: Plymouth
Contact:

Post by NickB » Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:47 pm

Bertie wrote:
The result is surfers fear being hit by kayakers more than anything else out there,
What! more than being hit by a windsurfer!
Cheers
Nick Benny

Arguments are extremely vulgar, for everybody in good society holds exactly the same opinions!

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:14 pm

hell.. no-one likes a windsurfer - splitters!!

Bod
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:50 pm
Location: Exeter

Post by Bod » Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:38 pm

How about one of the new breed of surf boats that combine speed and freestyle shenanigans:

http://www.fluidkayaks.co.za/Junction.htm
John B.

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:21 pm

Bod wrote:How about one of the new breed of surf boats that combine speed and freestyle shenanigans:

http://www.fluidkayaks.co.za/Junction.htm
What you mean something like this =P

Denzil

edt: Correcting URL

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:58 am

or maybe this...

User avatar
wonny j
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Swansea

Post by wonny j » Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:40 am

How about a DragoRossi Squashtail?

Great combination of surf/waveski design & playboat style aerial potential, plus amazing for river waves too....

User avatar
James F
Posts: 1669
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2002 3:04 pm
Location: Weymouth, Dorset
Contact:

Post by James F » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:08 am

What has caused this sudden frenzy of design innovation in surf kayaking?

User avatar
Mark R
Posts: 24128
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 6:17 pm
Location: Dorset
Has thanked: 12 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Contact:

Post by Mark R » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:11 am

James F wrote:What has caused this sudden frenzy of design innovation in surf kayaking?
I actually thought that a lot of the designs I looked at were distinctly retro. The words 'surf shoe' sprung to mind.

Which - before folk flame me - isn't the same as saying they were no good.
Mark Rainsley
FACEBOOK

Bertie..
Posts: 1118
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:51 pm
Location: Mighty Weymuff
Contact:

Post by Bertie.. » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:14 pm

totally agree Mark. I had a go in the Valley Sneaker the other day, which is definately a retro surf shoe and thought it was great!

I think the design rush has been caused by:

- playboats becoming less useful in surf than before
- manufacturers opening up the market through plastic designs
- playboat inspired moves crossing over into surf kayak design
- surfboard design and moves generally moving on, and surf kayakers wanting to keep up

User avatar
Frank Mcowski
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 8:27 pm
Location: Kent

Post by Frank Mcowski » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:16 pm

Mcowski Designs latest surf kayak...

Image

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:31 pm

wonny j wrote:How about a DragoRossi Squashtail?

Great combination of surf/waveski design & playboat style aerial potential, plus amazing for river waves too....
The Squashtail is not a surfboat and does not comapare when out on ocean surf. It surfs better than pretty much any playboat out there but still no way near as well as a surf boat. Coran himself will tell you this, that is why he has the Nightmare for the surf.
James F wrote:What has caused this sudden frenzy of design innovation in surf kayaking?
A couple of things as I see it have helped this but the main cause has to be more people designing and making surf boats means that nobody has time to rest on their laurels any more as they all know that somebody else will be working on something new all the time. Although talking to Malcolm Pearcy form Mega at the weekend even he agrees that mabie he has made enough new designs for one year at 5/6 composite (depending on whether you include the Megatron as a new design or just as scaled up Neutron) designs and a new HDP boat.
MarkR wrote:I actually thought that a lot of the designs I looked at were distinctly retro. The words 'surf shoe' sprung to mind.
I certainly agree that certain aspects of the old surf shoes are being reviseted such as the completly flat bootoms but these are being coupled with a lot of new ideas as well. The modern generation of surf boats certainly don't surf like the old surf shoes though and I have spent a fair amount of time surfing old surf shoes (MkII P&H Shoe and a Arrowcraft Surfyak) and new style HP boats (own a Neutron and have at least demoed every HP boat I can get my hands on), so trust me when I say they are very different beasts.

Denzil

P.S. Old surf shoes are still fun and infact I took my 1978 Arrowcraft Surfyak out this sunday and had a blast.

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:38 pm

Bertie.. wrote:totally agree Mark. I had a go in the Valley Sneaker the other day, which is definately a retro surf shoe and thought it was great!
The Valley Sneaker really is a retro surf shoe. It is essentially an old school Valley Moccoson which were around many many years ago. They are still a blast though.

Denzil

User avatar
wonny j
Posts: 371
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:32 pm
Location: Swansea

Post by wonny j » Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:41 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:
wonny j wrote:How about a DragoRossi Squashtail?

Great combination of surf/waveski design & playboat style aerial potential, plus amazing for river waves too....
The Squashtail is not a surfboat and does not comapare when out on ocean surf. It surfs better than pretty much any playboat out there but still no way near as well as a surf boat. Coran himself will tell you this, that is why he has the Nightmare for the surf.
I know this, and I know that you've made this point in previous posts. My point is that its a great boat for people who want a riverplay/oceansurf crossover.

I live in Swansea - my Squashtail is loads of fun on the Gower surf and great on the local river wave spots. River running is a little more challenging but you certainly learn to edge. For bigger rivers I've got a bigger boat.

Having said that I'm pretty taken by some of the above new-skool surf shoe boats.

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Post by StoneWeasel » Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:12 pm

wonny j wrote:I know this, and I know that you've made this point in previous posts. My point is that its a great boat for people who want a riverplay/oceansurf crossover.
Valid point, I would not like to take a carbon surf boat down a river.
wonny j wrote:Having said that I'm pretty taken by some of the above new-skool surf shoe boats.
Go for it, try one out at some point and see what you make of it. I bet you enjoy it in the surf.

Denzil

greensurfer
Posts: 192
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:08 pm

surfboat

Post by greensurfer » Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:44 am

If you fancy a 'proper' surf boat, my Slingshot is up for grabs on the for sale forum. Full carbon top spec boat.

User avatar
StoneWeasel
Posts: 4410
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:46 pm
Location: Cornwall

Re: surfboat

Post by StoneWeasel » Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:07 am

greensurfer wrote:If you fancy a 'proper' surf boat, my Slingshot is up for grabs on the for sale forum. Full carbon top spec boat.
Surely you ar not moving away from the way of the surf kayak? Are you planning on replacing it with a different surf boat?

Denzil

Post Reply