Goldilocks and the Greenland Paddles?

[Grian]

My first GP was second-hand homemade 210cm wooden paddle and I loved it. I subsequently bought two professionally made GPs that are more refined. With each purchase I added 5cm and gained in performance. It isn't as simple as the extra length being the whole story though.

Paddle 1, carbon fibre 215cm, soft shoulders (Lars Gram). This has become my spare paddle.
+ Enters water supremely cleanly
+ Feels extremely supportive
+ Increased paddling pace
+ No pressure points
- A little slick when wet
- Already shows scuffs, feels more liable to damage

Paddle 2, wooden, 220cm, soft shoulders (Eastpole).
+ Paddle stroke ergonomics amazing, the right muscles activate, more rotation without trying, now keeping pace with user of large euro-blades
+ Not at all slick even when wet, stays put in a very relaxed hand
+ Feels robust, and has reinforced tips
- A little more abrasive, but believe that will quickly reduce as pressure points toughen
- Doesn't feel quite so phenomenally supportive




I have to confess the maker of the carbon fibre paddle advised me to get 220cm but the majority of other sources said 215, and since I was coming from 210 an extra 10cm seemed an awful lot so I compromised. I am wondering whether the carbon fibre would feel significantly different if it were also 220cm? There is about 1cm loom length difference. If it were equal, though different, I would swap between them. As it is the fantastic carbon fibre one is destined to stay on my foredeck.

Anyway, the point is that if you haven't tried a variety of lengths (overall and loom), and materials, you might be missing out on a much better paddling experience.

[RichardP]

Great Post Grain

[Grian]

Great Post Grain

I know equipment is rarely the answer to improving but now and then it makes a huge difference. Hope to get some GP coaching this year in order to make the best of what I have.

The other small change I made which has had a disproportionate effect is wearing a different cut of buoyancy aid. With the bulk distributed differently my upper body is much freer which obviously helps. As with the paddle without trying something else you might not realise how much better things can be - I had the original make for more than a decade!

[AllanH]

Thanks for the GP review - I for one would also love to read a comparison of the two BAs.

[leighv]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Grian! I’ll share some of my own :)

I’ve now owned several Greenland paddles since I started using them last year. I’ve so far used the Kajaksport Inuksuk, the Gearlab Kalleq, the Eastpole Paddles Nanook BoneEdge, the Seglagear Ikigai and the Seglagear Viper.

Things I’ve found:

Carbon paddles have significantly better performance than wood. They enter the water incredibly cleanly and have great buoyancy.

But wood feels really nice.

I started with the Inuksuk which has an adjustable length; I first paddled with 210cm, then 215cm before moving to 220cm, which felt right with it. But when I got my Ikigai I went with 225 after trying it out, which feels really great. I definitely notice a small performance bump from this small increase in size, although I still find 220cm perfectly fine to paddle with.

I wonder if perhaps the length is somewhat dependent on the paddle itself, as well as the paddler. 225cm definitely didn’t feel right for me with the Inuksuk but feels excellent with the Ikigai.

The Kalleq is the easiest, most forgiving paddle of the lot, while the Inuksuk is the most unforgiving in terms of flutter if your canted angle isn’t totally correct. The Inuksuk however had, by far, the most buoyancy and support of all of them.

The Viper was good too but too heavy for me (it’s a beefier paddle made for rock hopping and whatnot and has replaceable tips like the Kalleq).

The Ikigai has become my favourite daily paddle for a variety of conditions whilst the Nanook and Kalleq are for when I just really a gentle paddle without needing to really cover significant mileage.

I agree that wood has the best grip once the paddle is wet. And although I like both shouldered and unshouldered, I’d say I have a slight preference for shouldered.

Special mention to the Nanook’s tips that glow blue in the dark. Handy for knowing when there are orcs about.

[ChrisJK]

Hi Grian
I started my GP journey by borrowing a £400 inuksuk carbon paddle which was restricted to avoiding rocky areas. I was hooked and have then made quite a few . I gave away my longest thinnest paddle to my brother but I don't think he's actually used it. So I'll have to make another.

There are horses for courses and similarly with Greenland paddles. Are the paddles you have actually anthropometric?
My paddles are much wider than those I've seen made commercially but they fit my hands but not thumb to index. Power is great apart perhaps from sprinting. properly used they are more supportive than a euro paddle.

I'm still learning to roll and at present find the euro blade is more successful but that is no doubt my technique. When in the pool I use a shorter paddle but with improved technique I think I could use the storm paddle I bought from a fellow paddler for £20. This was also useful crossing to Holy island Arran in chop.

I use a Peak WW wrap around BA which causes me no issues when using a GP.

I've rummaged around in my files but can't find a selection of authentic Greenland paddles some of which probably doubled up as spears.

Correction here they are:

[Grian]

I think these additional posts show how individual paddle-fitting is. Mine are not fitted to my measurements and I wonder whether theoretically correct proportions would actually be a sweet spot, maybe that is most effectively found through trial and error - an expensive business if you can't try before buying. I am tempted to sell the 215cm and try a longer Lars Gram paddle, aside from grip it was fantastic. Clearly I should be familiar with the feel of my spare in case I need it in testing circumstances, so it doesn't make sense not to use it equally. At least GPs are fairly similar, I once switched with someone who had an extreme feather on their euro-blade and almost fell in!

My BA is Peak Explorer women's zip.

[Chris Bolton]

Clearly I should be familiar with the feel of my spare

I agree that is important. While mine are Euros, my spare is identical except it has nylon blades rather than carbon, on the basis that if I'm down to one it needs to be tough. It also means that in extreme circumstances I can mix and match to make a complete paddle.

[Rocketnumber10]

I bought a GP just out of curiosity because one came up locally. It's wood, no idea what, unbranded, 116cm, slightly wider than I would think is optimal. Still, it's allowed me to try out the canted stroke, my form is rubbish but it clicked enough that it started to feel efficient, comfortable and not like wierd, underpowered EPs that just wanted to capsize me.

So, my contribution, aimed at curious EP paddlers, is that almost any half decent GP will give you time to see if you like it. I borrowed one previously for 10 mins and it was just wrong, you need longer with it before it clicks. I leant mine out to people I paddle with and they had the same, they were polite but underwhelmed.

Some questions:

They are rare, have you done research and taken a punt or found somewhere to have a go at a bunch of them before shelling out?

Has anyone had GP specific training?

It sounds like I would be after a slightly longer GP, what were your tell tale signs when the stick was wrong?

My stick is one piece so if I'm gonna get another I might go one piece too? How flush are the ferule systems? If they are totally solid and low enough profile that you never notice then not having to poke it right down the middle of the car might be nice.

Pressing down towards the middle of the deck with the upper hand seems to prevent the stick from feeling like it wants to tip me over, in fact it's counterintuitively stabilising. However, I've not been out in conditions that I've used my EP in. I've started to learn the wing stroke, supportive like a EP stroke, does anyone swap to something like this when it gets really lumpy? Is a shorter stick preferable in these conditions?

For your spares have you got a whole paddle on your deck or do you have them split style? I was surprised how neatly a whole paddle fit compared to my EP splits but then it does poke out a bit at the front which could be interesting in steep waves.

Does anyone take both GP and EP out to spread the effort across more muscles on longer days? I thought this would be a good idea but my sense having had a go is that I would just lapse my canted form.

That's a lot of questions for a fairly meagre contribution, I hope they are relevant and of interest to the OP and others. I will certainly say that, as the OP suggests, having a concerted go at a paddle shape that hadn't made sense to me on paper has changed my mind in a way that I hadn't seen coming. I would not be surprised if a better paddle for me was out there and that it might well not be the spec that I expect.

[PlymouthDamo]

My 2p:

They are rare, have you done research and taken a punt or found somewhere to have a go at a bunch of them before shelling out?

I didn't do any research. I started using sticks because a paddling buddy had one and bullied us all into having a go with it and, after many weeks, it started to gel.

Has anyone had GP specific training?

No. Just worked it out for myself and looked at some YouTube videos (which I found of limited value.) The two main step-changes in my paddling technique came from (1) trying to keep up with a faster buddy over months/years, which forced me to keep tweaking my technique until I found out what worked and (2) I got loaned a wing paddle and given tuition from a mate who was on the British K1 team, and subsequently found that the technique works really well with sticks.

It sounds like I would be after a slightly longer GP, what were your tell tale signs when the stick was wrong?

I borrow other people's sticks whenever I get the chance, and even the really shonky ones still work well enough. It sounds like you're more comfortable with euroblades at the moment so think about what happens when you go back to a horrible old-school aluminium shaft/plastic blade paddle of a different length and different feather... After a fairly short period of readjustment, you crack on with it and it's 'okay.' I find the same with sticks - I've settled on a length which I build mine to, but I'm not convinced it would be the end of the world if I built them a foot shorter.

does anyone swap to something like this when it gets really lumpy? Is a shorter stick preferable in these conditions?

...

For your spares have you got a whole paddle on your deck or do you have them split style? I was surprised how neatly a whole paddle fit compared to my EP splits but then it does poke out a bit at the front which could be interesting in steep waves.

...

Does anyone take both GP and EP out to spread the effort across more muscles on longer days? I thought this would be a good idea but my sense having had a go is that I would just lapse my canted form.

In really windy conditions, the stick of choice is the storm paddle, because you use it in such a way that there's nothing sticking up above your top hand to catch the wind. That's also what I use as my spare as I can stow a whole one on the back deck where it's completely out of the way but can be grabbed to use instantly to roll/recover if you lose your main paddle - this has happened to me twice for real.

As for taking both euroblade and stick. I know of a couple of people that do this, but this just means they're not yet fully transitioned to their stick. I'd guess I fully moved over to sticks about 10 years ago, and since then if I were to be in difficult conditions then putting a euroblade in my hands would be the absolute worst thing you could do to me. Whenever I go back to a euroblade, e.g. for white water, it feels completely alien and unwieldy for half an hour or so.

[Rocketnumber10]

Interesting that you are fairly casual about paddle length. I did catch myself looking at a pretty expensive stick and had to remind myself that it was 2cm longer on each end. The search for an optimal paddle is valid but likely not the limiting factor for me at this point. I find my stroke slowly drifts up towards EP posture and the stick feels short but then when I make sure that the bottom hand gets a bit wet it's fine.

Which reminds me - very wet hands, right? It's ok now but I have paddled through the last few winters, I like it just as much. I've read that if you set poggies very loose then you can slide them along? But surely once the water is really, really parky it's a gloves/mitts thing? I never got on with them for my EP, finding poggies warm enough and that I was clumsy in gloves. What's worked for you?

[PlymouthDamo]

But surely once the water is really, really parky it's a gloves/mitts thing? I never got on with them for my EP, finding poggies warm enough and that I was clumsy in gloves. What's worked for you?

We paddle throughout the winter and there's no contest - pogies. I'm not 100% certain of the physics involved but, despite water being able to get in and out, they just have a magic ability to keep your hands warm. Gloves, as far as I'm concerned are horrible as you're putting a layer between your hands and the paddle which messes up the friction/control, plus I don't think they're anywhere near as warm. One slight downside to pogies is that they dictate where your hands are on the stick, so if you want to do a standard Greenland roll, you've got to take your hands out of them to extend the paddle. Usually, I just stay in the pogies and use it as an opportunity to use my much-neglected sweep roll, but taking your hands out is no problem. (Mine are ones a mate made for me out of quite thick neoprene, so getting your hands in and out is a doddle. If might be a bit trickier with floppier ones.)

[Sean_soup]

I'm not 100% certain of the physics involved but, despite water being able to get in and out, they just have a magic ability to keep your hands warm.

I think it's just that they keep the wind off the water - your hands are wet but the water is not evaporating and taking heat with it.

You know how a hot-air hand dryer feels like it takes a while to warm up? Fun fact - they usually don't, the hot air just feels cold until almost all the water is gone.

Have you ever tried palmless mitts? It took me a while to find pogies that I can live with*, but in the meantime I found them pretty good and still sometimes use them. I generally don't put all four fingers in, usually just the index and little fingers to keep the rest of the mitt wrapped around my hand, as they're really just keeping the wind off the backs of my hands and fingers. I have a PeakUK pair that I can put on if I think I'll need them but then sort of fold back inside-out over my drysuit cuff so they're out of the way while I'm not actually using them.

*(Reed Chillcheater as it turns out - not perfect, but the best I've tried so far)

[ChrisJK]

Hi Rocketnumber10

You have picked up the thread on various topics.
Further back up the thread Leigh seems to have a range of lengths and revues them all nicely but I've not got the sort of budget to shell out on multiple and seemingly expensive paddles.
I've got a variety lengths of homemade paddles, I'd quite like to make a few more as time allows.
I agree folks try a gp once for a few minutes and it freaks them out and they then write them off.
I do admit that as a new roller I find my roll (pool sessions) is more reliable with an ep than a gp but I'm sure I can beat that.
For support I think using a slight skulling action helps.
I am an absolute woose in cold weather and pogies beat gloves hand over fist. You get a lovely pocket of warm air rather than a constant evaporation from separate already cold digits.
I generally keep a shorter entire gp as spare on the front deck which is ok on a 17'7 boat and nearly sticks out on a 16' one.
Again zero training just a few You tube videos and articles. The main points are rotation and the angle at which the blade hits the water get those right and its easy to keep up with the pack. Sprinting is perhaps not quite as easy as with a euro but I am not particularly young or muscular.
Re sizing here is an AI view
https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=2 ... AB6BAgQEAE

[Rocketnumber10]

Quite reassuring to hear that everyone else is largely winging it too.

Fairly solid consensus on pogies and just taking your hands out when you want to extend the paddle. I’m just getting used to sliding the stick so it seems like it will be a problem but then I thought that I’d not really like the stick and have proved myself flat wrong about that, will try.

I can add that I bought an unbranded carbon stick off ebay and it was absolutely useless. The ferrule wobbled, the button that holds the two bits together was inside the hollow blade chamber so as soon as you did an extended stroke one side started filling up with water. I’ll not be playing that game again and if this post spares any of you this runaround then at least some good has come of it.

Quite rough out the other day, the GP was surprisingly supportive mid stroke. I found that the support came from pressing down on the upper side, rather than on the lower side, as I would with an EP. Braces feel less secure though, at least non-extended ones. In the wind driven clapotic chop that’s common round here it’s fairly routine to have to brace one side and then suddenly on the other side. A couple of times I found myself only barely getting the paddle back in time for the rebound wave. I can see why Leigh mentioned reverting to EPs, I did the same after a while and appreciated the familiar grip of the bigger blades.

Clearly, the paddles are capable, just not in my hands, yet. And this re-enforces something that I noticed when I borrowed some cranks for 10 mins. They felt bizarre, I could see why you would have them but it was something that I realised would require work to adjust to before they were helpful. Maybe something to remember in the search for a better paddle or boat or whatever. You just can’t know in 10 mins, or even an hour. Sometimes the real merit in a bit of gear is not clear until you have had it on the water for months, or over a whole year, so you see it in all weathers. This means that reading all the reviews and trying to find someone who has one and will let you have a go is worth doing but to some extent you do need to just take a punt and put the hours in to see if something is going to be a keeper. And, once you have put the hours in, you probably could have made any of the other options work?

This isn’t to contradict the OP. I’m agreeing, but emphasising that the adjustment period might be better measured in months rather than mins?

All that said, I'm on the fence as to if I should go 220 or 225 for my next GP and while I know my answer isn't on the internet, I'm not about to stop looking.

[Chris Bolton]

I found that the support came from pressing down on the upper side, rather than on the lower side, as I would with an EP. Braces feel less secure though, at least non-extended ones. In the wind driven clapotic chop that’s common round here it’s fairly routine to have to brace one side and then suddenly on the other side. A couple of times I found myself only barely getting the paddle back in time for the rebound wave.

With the paddle canted forward at the top, it will tend to dive and you learn to counteract that during the stroke. Pushing down with the top hand is using that downward pull for stability, although it's in the opposite direction to a traditional brace. The trick for clapotic chop is to use both push and pull so that you can stabilise a tilt either way with the paddle on either side. You can use a vertical paddle for stability in the same way. The concept is sometime called 'active blade' - you keep paddling, keep pressure on the face of the blade, but angle the blade so that the stability support is in the direction you want it. Sitting relaxed in the boat also helps, let the boat do what it likes, you just balance in the middle and use the active blade to adjust your balance. Canoe paddlers with a single blade do this - they don't have time to swap hands on the paddle to brace on the other side!

[Rocketnumber10]

This makes great sense, both sides of the paddle are the front; or at least the side that's loaded is. Bracing 'up' into the water seems odd but there's no reason that lifting water should support you any less than pressing it.

Not expecting to get it without plenty of practice but just to investigate the move a bit - by push and pull do you mean that you are reversing the stroke to load the opposite side? Or swapping the the cant but maintaining the motion?

One thing that's really gone west is my edging, which was promising before. I would guess that as I build confidence in the blade I'll be more willing to throw the boat over. For an outside edged turn are you still canting the blade top-forwards or do you turn it top-back to provide lift? Especially if I extend the blade for an edged turn I find myself wanting the drive but also to slightly lean onto the blade. I did try it the other way and it seemed like a recipe for wet hair.

Definitely agree on the loose boat, it's one of those things that makes the threshold of roughness so sharp, possibly even a negative angle past the uh oh point? You are doing just fine and then the moment you know your brace isn't strong enough you tense up and that causes you to need your not strong enough brace.

[Chris Bolton]

by push and pull do you mean that you are reversing the stroke to load the opposite side? Or swapping the the cant but maintaining the motion?

The second. Active blade isn't specific to GP so cant isn't built into it. The point is that you are continuing to paddle forwards and keeping the pressure on the blade so that it becomes more solid in the water and you can react off it. You develop an instinct to change the angle when necessary.

Edging and leaning are not the same thing. Edging is tilting the boat but remaining in balance, so you only need support if you're not confident of keeping that balance. I'll sometimes edge right off a near vertical paddle (like a draw stroke) on the left side.

Experiment a bit. Put your paddle vertical, blade parallel to the boat, and rock the boat from side to side. If you get the change to paddle a canoe, play with that - I think of the paddle as an anchor point in the water and pull the boat past it, or push it sideways, turn it, tilt it, whatever suits the water and where I want to go.