Learning to roll

[Ceegee]

you could do it whilst wearing a top hat, monocle and smoking a pipe - doesn't make any difference.

don't know about a pipe, but I've seen it done with a pint.
[media]https://youtube.com/shorts/SQAQUNiHsco? ... 9lnin7TpCc[/media]

[AllanH]

[/quote] don't know about a pipe, but I've seen it done with a pint.
[media]https://youtube.com/shorts/SQAQUNiHsco? ... 9lnin7TpCc[/media]
[/quote]

Poor technique - he spilt some!

[ChrisJK]

Damo
I just reread your post which states "However, it's all Greenland rolls so I wouldn't recommend them if, as is likely, the roll you're learning is the 'screw' or 'sweep' roll as it will just confuse matters for you. "
I am working hard on a sweep roll partly for WW but I use a gp for sea and have managed a sweep roll in the pool with a short gp so will that not work or do I need to modify or learn another roll?

[Owen]

You can do screw, sweep, c to c and combat rolls with just about any paddle including a GP. You can do most Greenland rolls with a normal paddle. Body positioning is far more important than what you happen to have in your hands.

[PlymouthDamo]

As Owen says, you can swap between Greenland and Euro paddles for most rolls I can think of, and definitely for the two rolls which the majority of people will start out with: the screw/sweep roll and the 'standard' Greenland roll. But they're different techniques, and it would be a confusing mess for a beginner to be watching 'how to' videos about one, whilst getting pool session lessons on the other. That was the point I was making in my reply to the OP back in October.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks
An update, It was going relatively well of recent weeks using both euro and greenland paddles, with a majority getting back up. Unfortunately my last roll with a greenland paddle caused me a sharp pain, so I got out. I may or may not have caused damage to my rotator cuff but I'll need to give it time to hopefully heal.
It illustrates how things could go pear shaped particularly if alone, I'd not liked to have needed to get back in my boat and paddle a few km. I can see why we practice various tows.
I'll give it a break and hopefully keep the muscle memory and shoulder heals.

[seawolf856]

Thanks
An update, It was going relatively well of recent weeks using both euro and greenland paddles, with a majority getting back up. Unfortunately my last roll with a greenland paddle caused me a sharp pain, so I got out. I may or may not have caused damage to my rotator cuff but I'll need to give it time to hopefully heal.
It illustrates how things could go pear shaped particularly if alone, I'd not liked to have needed to get back in my boat and paddle a few km. I can see why we practice various tows.
I'll give it a break and hopefully keep the muscle memory and shoulder heals.

Hi Chris, sorry to hear about the injury, I wish you a speedy and complete recovery. I was attempting to teach some relative novices to roll in the pool last night and it is amazing how some folk just 'get it' and some look like they will never roll, no matter what. But also what I've noticed is the rise in interest for learning to roll with a greenland stick and skulling up from a capsize. This is causing lots of shoulder aches!
We have some very good greenland rollers in our club now (I blame YouTube) but every session now becomes a dick swinging contest and I think their circus acts have made them lose sight of the real reason we learn to roll.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Seawolf
I use a shorter gp in the pool no longer than my WW paddle but it needs refining to a slimmer lighter version.
Others borrow mine to see if they can use it and they generally can.
There is one coach who has a carbon one and that worked for me. Sorry to hear about the circus. Can you limit paddle length?
I’m puzzled by my injury as there are aspects of the shoulder having re seated itself as one previously pinched area has gone. I’m giving it time before recommencing paddling. Trouble is paddling isn’t a bubble I need my shoulders for everything. Unfortunately we wear out.!

[PlymouthDamo]

learning to roll with a greenland stick and skulling up from a capsize. This is causing lots of shoulder aches!
We have some very good greenland rollers in our club now (I blame YouTube) but every session now becomes a dick swinging contest and I think their circus acts have made them lose sight of the real reason we learn to roll...

Guilty as charged with regards to the dick-swinging contest: the only practical reason for learning anything more exotic than a hand roll is to show off. I don't believe the narrative that Greenlanders needed the various different rolls for different types of hunting mishap and equipment failure - I reckon they just liked showing off to their peers, same as the 'top hat' or 'pint of beer' euro rolls. But I wouldn't expect any correlation between Greenland rolls/stick and having shoulder problems: the standard Greenland roll can be completed with your elbows locked by your sides, i.e. with zero risk to your shoulders and far safer than any other roll I can think of. If, however, what's going wrong in your pool sessions is the primadonnas sticking their oar in uninvited and confusing students with techniques other than what they're already being taught, then those people definitely need to F. off, in my opinion...

But in defence of showing-off/dick-swinging... 'The real reason we learn to roll' is to get you back up when the chips are down. As we know, lots of paddlers can do a roll under ideal conditions, but it will let them down when a capsize happens for real and haven't had time to set up etc. To develop a bomb-proof roll, you need to have practiced it repeatedly in real capsize conditions, and that's why good whitewater paddlers and surfers develop a very reliable roll - they have to. Showing off with fancy rolls achieves the same thing - when learning to do a double-pretzel walrus-evisceration roll, you're going to be repeatedly dumped back down unceremoniously without having had the chance to take a breath or set up for the plain-Jane roll you'll use to rescue yourself. This is good practice, and the nearest you'll get to a practical reason for doing the fancy rolls.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Damo
I’m still working on the basics of a sweep roll and got hurt which tends to dampen enthusiasm.
Can you post a link to that roll that doesn’t need the shoulders?
I’ve obviously overextended or something.
Age isn’t on my side but hats off to a 74 year old who’s doggedly practicing in the pool.

[PlymouthDamo]

If you've got instructors showing you how to do the sweep roll in your pool sessions, then that's the best type of roll for you to be learning. Changing to a different type of roll before you've mastered the screw roll would be a bad idea as the end result could well be that you end up unable to do any roll at all. The screw roll shouldn't be hard on your shoulders if it's done correctly, so your best bet would be to recover, do a bit of shoulder strengthening exercise and then work with your instructors to iron-out any problems with your technique.

Only once you've got the screw roll absolutely burned into muscle memory would I recommend learning another technique. And if that were a Greenland-style roll, the best learning resource, by a country mile, is the 'this is the roll' DVD by Cheri Perry and Turner Wilson.

[on the rocks]

Is it possible that the shoulder injury resulted from too much force as well as possibly over extending? This used to be the case with my roll, which was not so reliable as a result. A well executed sweep roll should be almost effortless. Under some guidance in the pool I was advised to slow everything down. As well as greatly reducing shoulder exertion this gave me more time to work on each element and combine them whilst not losing or relaxing the footpeg, knee brace and seat contact points. The “lightbulb” moment for me was when following the sweeping blade with my eyes do so by rotating trunk/shoulders instead of my neck and also lean back a bit. With shoulders facing the bottom towards the end of the sweep it’s impossible to lift your head early. Rolling is a perishable skill as I found a few weeks ago nonchalantly expecting to knock off a roll on my first sea trip this year without practicing over winter. A chilly practice session at my local lake sorted it out.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks All
On the rocks yes I think it was too much effort combined with not keeping my head down. I have done a few near effortless rolls and surprised myself. I seem to get best better positionally when doing pawlatta rolls.
I may try sitting in my boat in the garden maybe supported so I can get paddle under the boat and practice set up and follow through keeping my eye on the end of the paddle with my head going from port forwards to lying back starboard or is that a silly idea?
Whilst taking a break and doing shoulder excercises.

[ChrisJK]

It took maybe 4-5 months for my shoulder to settle but still ok to paddle including a multi day trip.
Once back to pool sessions I took the step to reengage with rolling and thanks to some helpful coaching between a couple of clubs its starting to take shape both using a euro and various greenland paddles.
Once underwater often resorting to second or third attempts using pawlatta technique as the last resort. Somewhat of a hybrid between a C-C and a sweep roll. improvement needed and generally using roll friendly pool boats.

[Mark Graham]

There are a couple of entertaining and interesting videos on YouTube - Storm Roll 2023 which is inspiring and Storm Roll 20241 (I don't know why that number) which has some 'unusual' content.
Stay Salty! (You will know why if you watch the second one).

[ChrisJK]

Thank you
I found the former video but not the latter.
There is a storm roll 2024 but that is in German and in a pool.
Interesting forward leaning roll at present I’m trying to lay back further and keep my head down.
I’m also having trials getting my paddle on top of the hull.

[Chris Bolton]

Interesting forward leaning roll at present I’m trying to lay back further and keep my head down.
I’m also having trials getting my paddle on top of the hull.

When my roll stopped working, I realised I had to lean as far forward as possible at the start. Head on the front deck, which gets my shoulders as near to the water surface as possible, so that I can get my arm up and the paddle over the boat. Lay back as the roll progresses.

[Mark Graham]

Thank you
I found the former video but not the latter.
There is a storm roll 2024 but that is in German and in a pool.
Interesting forward leaning roll at present I’m trying to lay back further and keep my head down.
I’m also having trials getting my paddle on top of the hull.

Try this Chris:-


It definitely falls in to the category of a little strange but compellingly good! It's like the 2023 one, its animated in the same style.
If the link doesn't work try searching you tube again with:-
STORMROLL20241

[PlymouthDamo]

I love that video, but if you're as clumsy as me, it needs a health warning: messing up the storm roll can wreck your shoulder. Over the years, I've thought that I'd mastered it, but then I'd neglect it for a few months and pay the price. Most of us spend most of our time on aft-finishing rolls, and therefore really need to be disciplined about putting enough practice in on the forward-finishing ones to get them burned into muscle memory.

The specific danger with the storm roll is that if you mess it up, then rather than just give up and re-capsize, you might be tempted to try and get up by pulling down on the paddle with the arm furthest away from the kayak - and this is a breathtakingly efficient way of knackering your shoulder. My description of the problem is probably not very comprehensible - you really need a good video or live tuition to explain a roll. But the outcome is easy to describe: each time I've messed up, I've spent weeks with my shoulder complaining whenever I've tried to lift a tin of beans out of a head-height kitchen cupboard...

If you're going to try and learn a roll from a video, then this is one of the riskier ones. The 'This is the Roll' DVD I've mentioned earlier in this thread teaches the storm roll via progression through a series of intermediate rolls, which I reckon is about as good/safe as you're going to get.

[ChrisJK]

Thanks Mark and Damo

The link worked there's a whiff of Herge's 'Adventures of TiN Tin' about the animation. Ir did at least introduce me to a variety of roll I'd not been aware of. I won't try it just yet for the reasons Damo has highlighted having done exactly as he described "pulling down on the paddle furthest away from the kayak" only that was on a failed sweep roll.
However the video possibly highlights I'm not paying enough attention to how my lower body is working in the process.