Anyone seen...

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Pyro
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Anyone seen...

Post by Pyro » Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:28 pm

This, able to work out what the hell it is? I think it's a squirty, and could be a bargain for someone to get started with if it works out, but can't figure what the hell...

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/short ... 1021336822

Image



(NB - not for me, I'm perfectly happy gooning about in my Shred. Or at least I will be when I finish repairing it...)
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elementsnepal
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by elementsnepal » Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:47 am

looks like a projet

Jones Chris
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Jones Chris » Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:11 am

The tail looks right for it to be a glass Enigma as built by Mega. The bow doesnt look quite right but that could be a pn optical illusion.

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StoneWeasel
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:39 am

Enigma with an oddly repaired or modified nose? It looks like the odd pointy nose of the Enigma has been extended into this rounder one.

Denzil

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:50 pm

http://flic.kr/p/eStpkQ

http://flic.kr/p/eStpj9

http://flic.kr/p/eStpfY

http://flic.kr/p/eStpd7

Bought for £30. Certainly in need of renovation but far from impossible to fix :-)

Any idea of the model? it's not an enigma (I had a plastic one).

Anyone know a formula to work out the weight a boat can carry based on a measure of its volume?

Also any good ideas for online good value and helpful uk based online / mail order resin suppliers etc.?

I'm looking forward to fixing this boat up and seeing it on the water soon :-)

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:59 pm

An old friend suggested that the boat may be a Valley Prodigy, thoughts?

me?
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by me? » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:04 pm

Its not a prodigy (I had one, it doesn't look right)
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MikeR
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by MikeR » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:03 pm

Definitely not a Prodigy - they have a big square 'cornflake box' just in front of the cockpit rim.

Could be a Projet, as others have muted above? The graphics match this one:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8103741@N0 ... 834404641/

Mike.

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:21 pm

Thanks Mike, I think you are correct, the photo link let me compare the two boats and there seems to be pretty identical. Now I know what it is does anyone know who am the project and what it is like? Inseam fit, performance etc....

I cleaned the boat up this am and jet washed it down which has helped identify where repairs are needed and whilst there is quite a lot to do nothing is terminal so once I make a bit more work on the boat I will post some more pictures.

Richard Moss
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Richard Moss » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:36 pm

It is definitely a ProJet - designed by Jim Snyder (that's my ProJet that MikeR has linked to above). Mine was made by a firm called Concept Designs who were based near Doncaster, but went bump many years ago.

The degree of 'chop' from the full size version depended on weight, inside leg and foot size, so mine was made for about 11.5 stone, size 8.5 feet and 31 inch inside leg. I'm more like 12 stone now and although its a bit more of a squeeze, it is still paddleable (even if it has only seen action in swimming pool sessions this year). Yours looks similarly sized, maybe a fraction larger, but it is hard to tell from the photos.
Yours doesn't have seat fitted, but it is probably better to put a foam seat directly on the hull anyway. To trim the boat so that it floats level in the water, you need to move the seat back or forward to find the best position before fitting it permanently.

Best to put some foam or other material in to place your feet against, so that you don't jam yourself in if you hit something. I used to ram a 'suicide block' between my thighs so that I was snug in the boat - I wouldn't recommend this to anyone unless confident they can remove the block easily if needing to exit the boat.
Mine was/is a lovely boat to paddle -good for surfing, screw-ups, cartwheels, stalls, blasting, mystery moves etc.
I cut a little from the bow and stern tips of mine to shorten it a bit- these areas were prone to damage and weren't really adding anything to the way it paddled. I nearly got rid of mine some time back, but even though it doesn't get used much ( I don't get out on the water as much as I'd like), I have a strong attachment to it (and an incentive to lose a pound or two

Regarding paddler weight/boat volume I can't help much except to say that roughly a boat will support the same weight as its volume below a given water line (using density of fresh water as 1kg per litre). As an example, take a volume of, say 100 litres which becomes 100kgs, then subtract the weight of boat and any outfitting, say lets say 25kg, which leaves a weight of paddler plus kit of 75kgs (seawater is more dense, 1.025 kg/litre so supports a greater weight or the boat floats a little higher in the water).

Resin supplies, I'm in Manchester and have used Delta Resins, now based in Reddish near Stockport and also a firm called ABL Stevens (www.resin-supplies.co.uk) in Sandbach. Whether these are of use depends on where you are based.

Hope this helps, Richard

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:35 pm

Fantastic info Richard, thanks! I ordered some materials to refurbish my boat today and started sanding, removing the badly damaged side seam and grinding out the extensive webs of star cracks in the gel coat. Having had a good chat with the tech guy from east cost fibreglass supplies and given the boats fairly tatty condition and thin gelcoat, I have decided that I am going to do the following:

1) repair all the areas of damage such as the thin patch on the hull under the seat, the front/ back and by the knees with a decent glass repair using resin and matting.

2) apply a new side seam using 150mm high Kevlar tape and resin then apply black gelcoat to finish it

3) apply a new clean white gelcoat finish to the hull

4) apply a new red gelcoat finish to the deck, then cover this with a clear coat containing red glitter jewels (as it's a squirt boat it just seems wrong not too!)

5) re do the cockpit comb with a coat of fresh black gelcoat.

6) get a vinal sticker made of the boats name in a suitably fancy font and attach thins in the back deck and coat with a thin layer of clear gelcoat.

7) finaly i will glue a simple low profile foam seat an hip pads in place and add a basic adjustable backrest.

Anyone got a view on the value of fitting toggles or similar to a squirt boat? The tape loops on mine were to big to be safe and badly damaged anyhow so I have removed them and will glass up the holes the question is are they worth the hassle of replacing as a lot of squirt boats don't seem to have any at all.

This of course means I'm in for a lot of sanding and polishing to get a decent finish and it will add a bit of weight. However the boat is very light and the finishes very thin at present so hopefully it will give her years of extra life.

I don't know yet if the boat will have enough volume for me to actually paddle but if not im sure that someone will want her once restored.

Pictures to date: http://flic.kr/ps/2urWYe

Richard Moss
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Richard Moss » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:04 pm

When I shortened my boat, I made new grab loops out of pieces of tubular tape (from a redundant climbing sling), I put a bit of plastic hose inside the tape to give a bit of shape/rigidity to the loop, made bolt holes in the tape with a hot nail/screwdriver - melted to reduce fraying. I drilled the boat and bolted the loops in place with stainless bolts and large washers placed under the deck and on top of the tape - and some sealant in the holes to keep the water out.
It should be strong enough - I have a vague memory that the deck was 5 layers of diolen and the hull 7 layers, but I can't be sure about that.
I clicked on the link to the original gumtree advert - the description as fast and stable made me chuckle; I assume the seller didn't know much about it then.

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:40 pm

The seller had no idea whatsoever about what he had. Luckily it was clearly a squirt boat to anyone who knew what they were looking at, albeit a bit tatty.

My thinking is that given the difficulty / huge cost of getting a squirt boat in the UK at present it was worth restoring this one even if the fit was poor for me (which sadly I think it will be as I'm a pretty big guy). That said it will work for someone and give me a boat that I can sell on for what it cost me (or maybe a little more) thus helping towards the cost of a better fitting boat when one comes up (at best a rare event!). Of course along the way I will also enjoy the refurb project and improve my skills with GRP. :-)

I think if I do fit grab handles of some kind I may just get some from eBay ( or endless river who do both grab handles and toggles) and fit before applying the top coat as well as reenforcing that area of he deck internally so I get a nice finish and ensure they are watertight. The question is are they required given that so few new squirt boats seem to have them? On a normal kayak they are of course an essential feature, but I can see that they could possibly be a risk on a squirt boat.

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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by me? » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:46 pm

If you are planning to replace the seam any way, why not re-chop it at the same time so it actually fits properly?

-I've never done this, its probably a lot of work. But it sort of sounds like your most of the way there anyway?

A
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Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:57 pm

I did think about that but having had a really good look at the boat now the issue is its going to be too tight not too big so sadly I think I'm looking at a boat that will end up sold on once finished. I guess this could potentially be resolved by adding material but the glass work involved is a whole different level and well beyond my skills due to the major structural implications. Hopefully if I can get his boat back to top condition I can sell it on to fund a larger squirt boat (and do that up too - twice the fun?). Half the fun of the project is in the renovation anyhow.

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MikeR
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by MikeR » Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:24 pm

It sounds like you've got a fun little project lined up - hope you enjoy it.

With regards grab handles, I'm not sure they'll add anything to the boat (unless you specifically want them for a reason?). They detract from the smooth flow of water around the boat, which is why most squirt boats don't have handles. Adding them may possibly detract from its resale value slightly!

Mike.

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:08 pm

Hi Mike, thanks for that, you just confirmed what I had hoped / suspected.

So far I have the boat stripped back to solid surfaces (which wasnt as bad a job as i had suspected thanks to my dremil and an orbital sander with 60 grit paper). I have now started applying two layer bi lateral woven internal patches to reinforce damaged and worn areas and next I will apply the new kevlar side seam. Once this I all done I will post some more photos. It's the gel coat work I'm really looking forward too doing and also am most nervous about!

Jones Chris
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Jones Chris » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:21 pm

A deep dark memory has surfaced that means I think I remember the original owner of this boat! I'll need to check but I think the original owner was a bloke called John Giles from Gravesend in Kent. It was bought just after a Mike Jones Rally where Bob Cambell and Jason Buxton had been demoing these new crazy squirt boats at Serpents tail! This would have been between 1987 to 1989 maybe(?) i believe the boat was built in the UK and I seem to remember Valley stickers on it at some point. Would have been cut for someone around 12-13 stone although back then squirt cuts were no where near as small as they are now.

If someone can point Jamie Austen to this thread he might remember a bit more and may even shed light on who John sold the boat to. There was a red a green version around to that belonged to Malcolm Smith.

Chris (showing his age) Jones.

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Pyro
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Pyro » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:07 am

I'm really glad I posted this now. Awesome response :)
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Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:42 pm

The work is now complete and my once rather abused 2nd hand Projet is now repaired, renovated and back in full working order, looking like a squirt boat should! (i.e. shiny and very 1970's / 80's with a strong 'disco' vibe)

Here are a few Photos of the finished article, the red glitter really catches the light which makes photos hard on a sunny day like today:

Image
Finished! Just need fitting out now. by Darekish, on Flickr

Image
Finished! Just need fitting out now. by Darekish, on Flickr

Image
Finished! Just need fitting out now. by Darekish, on Flickr

I also measured the volume roughtly by filling her with a measured qualtity of water and manged to get to 117l before the water spllled over the cockpit rim. Assuming that there is a need for 1-5% more volume than paddler weight and that 1L of water will displace 1kg weight that means she will take a paddler in the range of 115kg (18st)to 111kg (17.4st) for an expert type cut or a less radical 90 (14.2 st)-100kg (15.8st) paddler for a more 'normal' cut. although i suspect in reality the second set of numbers are more realistic.

The main challenge for me personally is the width of the cockpit at the hips as im not a small guy and this seems quite narrow (tight!). I hope to be able to give her a go on flat water soon and will report back after that.

If anyone is interested a full photographic record of the work done is available here: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjGfT4ZA I really enjoyed the project and learnt a lot along the way.

What do people think she is worth now?

Jones Chris
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Jones Chris » Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:10 am

Wow! Top job on the renovations! Any pictures of the hull?

As for worth - definately more than in her previous condition! All you need to find are two people the right size to fight over her!

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:00 am

The hull has a lovley smooth and shiny new coat of plain white gel coat. This is tough and hides the wear best, it's also what most manufacturers recommend for new grp boats. I will get a photo posted once it stops raining here. I did consider adding a red glitter stripe down the centre of the hull but that's the highest wear point and I decided it wouldn't stay pretty long enough.

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Darekish wrote:The hull has a lovley smooth and shiny new coat of plain white gel coat. This is tough and hides the wear best, it's also what most manufacturers recommend for new grp boats. I will get a photo posted once it stops raining here. I did consider adding a red glitter stripe down the centre of the hull but that's the highest wear point and I decided it wouldn't stay pretty long enough.
Photo as promised:

Image
Untitled by Darekish, on Flickr

Richard Moss
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Richard Moss » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:20 pm

That looks nice (and fairly time consuming). Regarding the boat volume / paddler weight issue, I suspect it will be lower than you imagine. Remember the 117 litre volume is right up to the cockpit coaming so the boat would be completely submerged at the upper end of your figures . If you want the boat to float with the waterline at the same level as the seam, then you should only consider the volume below that line (so I guess you may be looking at an ideal paddler weight of perhaps 70 -75 kgs or so).
Have fun in the sun.

Darekish
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Darekish » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:29 pm

Hi Richard I see your point re weight and agree, what I'm not 100% sure about is where on the boat it's acceptable / best for the waterline to sit. Especially as from what I can see and read online it seems that 'expert' chops seem to sit with their decks deeper in the water than a more normal chop?

Jones Chris
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Jones Chris » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:02 pm

A ok chop, in my opinion, would be with the majority of the boat under the surface with the spray deck remaining dry.

A good chop would be with the deck sitting just below the surface of the water.

A great chop would be with the deck two to three inches below the surface.

A suicide chop would be the water at nipple level - ala Mr Whites new toy!

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MikeR
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by MikeR » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:11 pm

Great renovation job - that looks like it's in tip-top condition now :-)

Mike.

JoshGosling
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by JoshGosling » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:26 pm

I disagree and agree with Chris Jones when it comes to chops of boats. It depends what you are after in a boat.

Are you wanting to paddle this boat on a river to get to spots? or are you just a park and sinker?

If you are just after super downtime and all you do is go to a spot and put in next to it then I agree with Chris, chop it so the deck two to three inches below the surface. You really do not need to chop the boat so its already up to your nipples though....

But if you are wanting to paddle your squirt boat on flat or moving water and if you want to do tricks and still get great down time, I would suggest that you want both the nose and tail just under the water but leaving the cockpit dry. This is how I cut the boats at Downtime and now at Big Dog, this is also the way that Jason who started downtime cuts boats.

Its also down to the person and also the design of the boat. You do not have to be in pain to be in a squirt boat, if the chop is good. I have never been more happy to be in my squirt boat since I designed the Karma and spent a few hours fine tuning the cut for me, which then I used to design a cut chart for it. My boat sits with both ends just under the water and level. This chops allows me to enjoy the flat water tricks I love and also get good downtime, but I am still able to paddle this boat on a river and enjoy that as well.

The chop is always personal and it really depends what you want from your boat.

Great work though, you have done a fantastic job bringing that boat back to life.

Jones Chris
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Jones Chris » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:17 pm

Sorry, should've said that the opinion on chops is for a downtime boat.

That said, the new Kors and Slips are also probably the most capable flat water boats going and they are generally cut very low. An older style of boat like the Asylum, Shred or Karma would probably not move about on the water well at the extreme cuts as the hulls are not optimised to bring the boat into a higher planing position as easily. That said, Dave once cut me a super low chop Asylum that was awesome. As far as I know I was the first person to do flat water reverse loops in that boat! Fantastic fun but as Josh said, difficult to move around the river.

Where I really agree with Josh is that a chop is a very personal choice. If your gonna do it float test it again and again until you are 100% happy with it.

Putty
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Re: Anyone seen...

Post by Putty » Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:25 pm

So, now the project is finished-how much do you want for it?

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