Photo/Video ownership question

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mitch
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Photo/Video ownership question

Post by mitch » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:00 pm

I've put the question in a generic context, although this has actually happened.

Paddler A owns a Go-Pro which is attached to Paddler B's helmet. Paddler A is using a Go-Pro remote to take still photos while Paddler B runs the gnar and brown claws for Britain.

Does Paddler A or Paddler B own the copyright on photos?

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Chris Bolton » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:50 pm

Interesting. I would say that paddler A decides when to take the shots, so owns the copyright in the absence of any agreement between the paddlers. Paddler B can point the camera at stuff (or not), so could stop a particular photo but can't actually take one.

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Chriscofferson
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Chriscofferson » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:57 pm

Surely person A owns it all. They are choosing when shots are being taken and own the equipment the photos are being taken on. Person B is just the cameraman during the whole trip.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:20 pm

But person B has (in part) creative control of the shot by how they steer themselves through the environment?

What about if it was a video and person A was just turning the camera on at the top, and off again at the bottom.

What if there was a person C who had set up the whole scenario, lines, angles etc, and person B was just doing as they were told?

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Chalky723 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:36 pm

Does the camerman, director, Attenborough or the BBC own the "Africa" series?

I'd say the BBC as they paid for it all. If person B didn't ask for payment then surely their time was given freely & with no restrictions (unless the correct paperwork was supplied). "B" would have no say if the camera was pointed at them from elsewhere...

What if Paddler A decides to format the SD card? Paddler B wouldn't have a say in the matter would they?

Must be a blooming good video!!

C
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box2k2
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by box2k2 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:51 am

Chalky723 wrote:Does the camerman, director, Attenborough or the BBC own the "Africa" series?

I'd say the BBC as they paid for it all. If person B didn't ask for payment then surely their time was given freely & with no restrictions (unless the correct paperwork was supplied). "B" would have no say if the camera was pointed at them from elsewhere...
Normally whilst working for any company you'll find that your contract states they retain ownership of anything you create whilst in their employ, which would presumably overrule any other copyright claim. Thus in your example the BBC has ownership unless some other contract/understanding has previously been agreed.

Presumably the OP's example doesn't involve employment or contracts, thus the point doesn't apply here.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Chalky723 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:31 pm

box2k2 wrote:
Chalky723 wrote:Does the camerman, director, Attenborough or the BBC own the "Africa" series?

I'd say the BBC as they paid for it all. If person B didn't ask for payment then surely their time was given freely & with no restrictions (unless the correct paperwork was supplied). "B" would have no say if the camera was pointed at them from elsewhere...
Normally whilst working for any company you'll find that your contract states they retain ownership of anything you create whilst in their employ, which would presumably overrule any other copyright claim. Thus in your example the BBC has ownership unless some other contract/understanding has previously been agreed.

Presumably the OP's example doesn't involve employment or contracts, thus the point doesn't apply here.
Exactly, no contract works both ways - unless it was specifically agreed that someone would benefit from wearing your camera while you took pictures from it then I think they'd be hard put to win a case arguing that they should, especially if they were going to paddle over the feature anyway.

Would be interesting to know the details though, Paddler B obviously feels mighty aggrieved!! If I was Paddler A I'd possibly just delete the film & start again without Paddler B, might make for a quieter life!!

C
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by SimonMW » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:34 pm

In the situation you describe the camera owner legally owns the copyright. There's no grey area. That's the law in the UK. Remember that the person wearing the camera has willingly done so knowing that it isn't their camera.

From a general courtesy point of view however if they really do believe that their generic wobbly headcam footage actually has some commercial value then they should agree copyright terms beforehand. If the footage won't be sold for money then they should both just get on with their lives! ;-)

The example of working for the BBC etc is a separate issue. If they pay you to shoot the footage generally they take ownership of the footage. They don't necessarily own absolute full copyright since there is reasonable expectation to be able to use such footage in showreels/examples of work. There are also variations depending on how the contract is worded.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by DaveBland » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:50 pm

So in a simpler version, how does it work if A takes a shot using B's camera?
Creative copyright with A, I presume?
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Big Henry
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Big Henry » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 pm

The person who presses the shutter is the person who owns the copyright on the image. It doesn't matter who is holding the camera or who owns the camera. (Subject to any signed agreements! )

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by DaveBland » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:10 pm

What if the camera was taken without consent? Just askin...
dave

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:18 pm

SimonMW wrote:From a general courtesy point of view however if they really do believe that their generic wobbly headcam footage actually has some commercial value then they should agree copyright terms beforehand. If the footage won't be sold for money then they should both just get on with their lives! ;-)
Yeah Simon, you are the only one who has any concept of production. Folk other than you can make videos, and maybe paddler B has a very steady head? ;)

What about if the footage will allow both parties to gain, but not especially financially?

Love from Tom, With a wobbly head.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by SimonMW » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:23 pm

Tom, that's a very jerky knee you have. I guess the term "tongue in cheek" doesn't exist up there.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 pm

My tongue is wedged firmly in my cheek. This hurts as I am laughing heartily.

No offence meant, your show-reel is rather watchable and shows plenty of experience, but no need to be so disparaging, not everyone has fluid heads and steadicam necks. Poor Mitch!

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by SimonMW » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:00 pm

And now for something completely different. I won't say anything about this photo set other than to say it is really, really interesting...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorrysacas ... 698997003/

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Big Henry
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Big Henry » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:47 pm

SimonMW wrote:And now for something completely different. I won't say anything about this photo set other than to say it is really, really interesting...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorrysacas ... 698997003/
446 pics, all very picturesque, but I'm not looking at them all, you'll have to give more of a clue.

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Saint Matt
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Saint Matt » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:03 pm

The copyright owners of a film are jointly the producer and the principle director (s.9(2) Part I of the CDPA 1988).

Of course things change if the film is being made in the course of employment or if there is a contract/agreement in place covering ownership...

M

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Poke » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:21 pm

Big Henry wrote:
SimonMW wrote:And now for something completely different. I won't say anything about this photo set other than to say it is really, really interesting...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sorrysacas ... 698997003/
446 pics, all very picturesque, but I'm not looking at them all, you'll have to give more of a clue.
I'm going to take a punt at a one word clue... Sarcasm...
:-)
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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by callwild » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:04 pm

To go back to the original question I would have thought it was
Paddler A ; Owns the camera, is operating the camera, is editing the film. therefore his copyright.
Paddler B: has the go pro mounted on his helmet and is nothing more than a moveable camera mount. He is solely a remote access technician? he may be running the gnar and the camera maybe getting shots by default not by the paddler framing and composing. Saying that Paddler B should be acknowledged as being the paddler who made it possible, but not the copyright of the images.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Big Henry » Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:58 pm

Poke wrote:I'm going to take a punt at a one word clue... Sarcasm...
:-)
Of course. It was late, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by mitch » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:36 pm

callwild wrote: Paddler B: ..... is nothing more than a moveable camera mount.
I'm paddler B. :(

Image

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by SimonMW » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:46 pm

I'm paddler B. :(
I don't know, I'd be flattered if people called me a human tripod...

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:53 am

SimonMW wrote:
I'm paddler B. :(
I don't know, I'd be flattered if people called me a human tripod...
Mitch IS a human dolly, tripod, boom, steadycam, and lord knows what else. He is also a legend for his repeated laps while me and paddler C got shots for two projects, one awesomely awesome for Lowepro (watch this space!) and one for boring personal amusement.

Love from

Paddler A

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by morsey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:07 pm

Where was the water? "Just seal launching down wet rocks"™

A Paddler

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:34 pm

Someone once said, if you spill your pint in Wales, someone will come and paddle it.

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by morsey » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:58 pm

Where is the photo, I saw knocking around, of Mitch going Tits Deep™ ? That looked really good, or has it been snapped up by the client not to be seen again till release!

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Re: Photo/Video ownership question

Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:35 pm

morsey wrote:Where is the photo, I saw knocking around, of Mitch going Tits Deep™ ? That looked really good, or has it been snapped up by the client not to be seen again till release!

It's on the Lowepro and Welsh Rivers Facebook pages.

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