What's missing?

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Mark R
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What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:42 pm

The essence of this site is of course sharing info on rivers. Myself and a few others have recently been getting round to adding a few more rivers - to my shame, we have some submitted guides which go back a year or two...

Adding and editting info is now about a thousand times easier than it used to be, as the whole site has been rebuilt from scratch (not by me, I only know how to break it). Hence, things are speeding up a bit now.

Just a thought, while we're on this...

What's missing? Any rivers you know which aren't included?

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Re: What's missing?

Post by The Portage King » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:40 pm

I'm not sure how feasible this is Mark but it would be fantastic if each river had a bit of a history section - First Descent info, the date, the team - stories from way back when. Fibre Glass epics

Some of these are 40 years + ago and if not careful, this info will be lost.

Your site is the ideal foundation for this.

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:21 pm

Anything you know, post it in the message thread below the guide....

I was meaning, 'Which rivers or sections are missing?'
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Re: What's missing?

Post by DaveWortley » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:43 pm

I think we should have printable maps to the rivers that we can print out and laminate and take down the river with us and tick off all the eddies that we make....


Sarcasm warning...

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Re: What's missing?

Post by jriddell » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:09 am

Agree on the maps, I've been wanting to get mine included in the guide for years. http://whitewater.quaker.eu.org/ (Now also rendered on http://www.openseamap.org/). Lots of improvements could be made to these maps but I don't want to spend time on that unless they'd get used so I'd like to see them on this site first.

I'd also love to see it as a wiki so the guides were easy to edit, currently the barrier to edit is just a bit too high for me to bother with.

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:25 am

For others to research? Easy!

Southern uplands is missing the Calder from Clyde Muirshiel Country Park down to Lochwinnoch (Castle Semple Loch), I don't know the details we only looked at it once and it was too low. Have paddled up from CSL in sea kayak as far as the road bridge where it becomes too shallow and fast flowing to make further progress (no eddies).

Related to above the Black Cart from CSL to White Cart confluence may have something, we paddle down in sea kayak as far as the weir (I'm told it forms a playwave in high water) and I have not ventured further.

The Gryfe Water is also missing from this region - only ever heard rumour, never been up there despite close proximity!

The Gogo (river water or burn?) in Largs has also seen descents by Ayrshire paddlers, it was too low when we looked at it after a 200 mile round trip.

The West highlands is also missing a few, sometimes that which is closest to you is easiest forgotton:

Leven: Loch Lomond to Clyde Confluence.
Grade: 1 perhaps a little more depending on flow.
Access: various options around Balloch, most important point is to stay clear of the cruise boat pontoons for launching, and be aware of these large vessels manoeuvring in small space when paddling past. Free (last time I looked) car park and slip behind the pub just upstream of the upper bridge, free parking in the national park visitors centre but stay away from the boat launch ramps which there is a charge for - you can carry kayaks to plenty of other access points around the centre keeping the whole ramp area (and dedicated parking) clear for the trail boats it is meant for. Also various places to launch on the loch and paddle to the river.
Egress: Again various options in Dumbarton but the one that makes most sense is to park by the castle and paddle out onto the Clyde and around the castle to a beach. There are car parks both sides of the river near Dumbarton bridge (which has the ancient Leven Ford beneath which forms a small drop/rapid at low water) but access is from steps without any real eddies. If tide not high there is an unappealling beach upstream of Dumbarton bridge river right extending upstream of the new road bridge adjacent to Dalreoch station (parking). I can't recall anywhere suitable to land at Sandpoint Marina.
Shuttle: By road various routes are possible, about 5 miles. Train shuttle is also possible, Balloch central (Balloch's only station these days) is very close to the free slip mentioned above (and the cruiser terminal), Dumbarton has 3 stations and which you use depends on where you want to take out. Dalreoch station is right next to the river on river right just before the new road bridge. If egressing in riverside car park in town centre Dumbarton Central is closest especially if you find a pedestrian alley through to the high street, go through the artizan centre and then take the underpass. From the castle it is a bit of a trek to a station, but on reaching the top of Castlegreen street you will see Dumbarton East station to the right.
Major Hazards: Barrage at balloch - meant for flood control, not designed to be canoe/kayak friendly, sluices are totally walled in for good distance downstream, happily it was built to allow larger vessels to portage so you will find more than adequate ramps river right - the gates may be locked but are only crotch high. Leven Ford which is now the foundation for Dumbarton Bridge appears significantly harder than any other rapid, but I have only paddled it when the tide has been in (flat water), maybe grade 2.
Description: As a formally industrial river running through some of the more deprived areas in the region the Leven has reverted back to the wild surprisingly well and for most of the trip you will be completely unaware of industrial heritage or proximity of housing schemes. Assuming you launch on the Loch Lomond side of the bridges in Balloch, the first part of the river is covered in small boat moorings - residents apparantly have some ancient right to keep a boat on the river, although the national park has tried to change this in particular with respect to the number of vessels which appear to have sunk on their moorings and been abandoned. Keep an eye out for cruise boats until you pass under the first bridge, they push the limits of practical size for the river and may not see kayaks/canoes. Moorings turn to marinas between the bridges and towards the barrage shortly below (portage right). From the barrage the urban landscape quickly recedes and trees line the banks. Small rapids are mainly formed by groynes part way across the river in various places - evidence of former control of the watercourse which seem to allow larger craft to navigate, although I seem to recall some shallow gravel rapids as well. At Bonhill houses again appear on the banks, some on the flood plain basically at the height of the bank. Immediately below Bonhill bridge is a small hole which I am told is the best fishing spot on the river so take care to keep up good relations if you meet anglers - I can only recall seeing mature fly anglers around here, further downstream you may encounter coarse anglers but there are no known issues with either type. The river once again gets a wild feel until the Ballantines building on the Polaroid industrial estate hoves into view (towering over the trees and hinting at a change of character to come) - the river meanders a lot and it changes banks several times, I won't spoil the guessing game by telling you which side you eventually pass it! Shortly after the estate slips by almost out of view from the river you will pass under the A82 bridge and the river opens out with extensive reed beds and wetlands adjacent to the golf course on river left. The less mature woodland river right conceals the remains of Dennystoun forge which used to supply Dennys shipyard in years gone by, a scrapyard is the only hint at industry on that side of the river, Dalreoch station is immediately after the scrapyard before the bridge. Passing under the new road bridge you will find some moored boats, tower blocks to the right and council offices etc. to the left - straight ahead is the old Dumbarton Bridge and if the tide is out the old Ford under it will be forming a weir which may go in several places but probably best through the right hand arch. The town centre (riverside car park) is along the left wall now (several sets of steps) and the density of moorings increases down towards the clyde. As the river bends left there isa patch of bulldozed land where the old distillery stood, running on towards the site of Denny's shipyard, most of which now lies under Morrisons supermarket (Note that Denny's towing tank still exists and has been turned into a maritime musuem, signposted from the main road). To the right is Sandpoint marina (more boats, steep rocky embankments) whilst to the left the land flattens right off (castle green) with Dumbarton Football Club taking up what would be a prominent position if it were not for the near vertical sided volcanic plug just beyond with Dumbarton castle on top! As you approach the castle from this side you will be looking at the Dumbarton rock crag and bouldering area - home to some pretty serious climbing routes. The rock is right at the Clyde confluence and paddling around it to the left (upstream on the Clyde) you will find a beach (sandy at the top, stony at lower tides) which makes a good takeout. A glance at the chart of the Clyde is interesting here, there are extensive shallows running out into the Clyde which in kayak/canoe we can paddle over to the beach but yachts have to follow buoys to keep to a deep channel.

Apart from the Leven the West Highlands seems to be missing the Chur in Argyll (again I have looked but found too low - Dunoon road from the Kinglass, runs into Strachur), also in Argyll is another Douglas by the A83 somewhere near Furnace (or is it Furness?) - Neil F has done this one. Also the Avich somewhere above Loch Awe (Neil again) and another burn on the road along the north side of Loch Etive which I forget the name of which had Neil F and Chris D swimming simultaneously (only them on it).

Further north in the West Highlands the Fassfern seem to be missing (can't see it listed under it's gaelic name which escapes me just now) as is the river I seem to recall looking at with Chris Wheeler who phoned you for info on (we decided it was too low) - the Dubh Lighe. Isn't there another Lighe nearby too?

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:27 am

I gave far too much info on the Leven there - definitely needs a harsh editor to cut it down to basics!

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Re: What's missing?

Post by jriddell » Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:10 am

River Ericht in Perthshire
http://jriddell.org/diary/?p=85

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim Pullen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:49 pm

This is what I think is still missing from the North East that should be paddleable, sections in bold I know have been paddled and are supposed to be good:

New Rivers

Akenshaw Burn (Kielder Water Trib)
Aln
Arkle Beck (Swale Trib)
Barben Beck (Wharfe Trib)
Barney Beck (Swale Trib)
Bedburn Beck (Wear Trib)
Bishopdale Beck (Ure Trib)
Black Burn (South Tyne trib)
Blyth
Bollihope Burn (Wear Trib)
Bowmont Water (Till Trib)
Breamish (Till Trib)
Buckden Beck (Wharfe Trib)
College Burn (Till Trib)
Colne (Calder Trib)
Cosh Beck (Skirfare Trib)
Cover (Ure Trib)
Cragg Brook (Calder Trib)
Cray Gill (Wharfe Trib)
Cross Gill (South Tyne Trib)
Deepdale Beck (Tees Trib)
Dove (Rye Trib)
Foxup Beck (Skirfare Trib)
Gayle Beck (Ure trib)
Glen (Till Trib)
Gordale Beck (Aire Trib, contains Janet's Foss)
Gunnerside Gill (Swale Trib)
Harthope Burn (Till Trib)
Harwood Beck (Tees Trib)
Holme (Calder Trib)
Houxty Burn (North Tyne Trib)
How Stean Beck (Nidd Trib)
Little Beck (Esk Trib - contains Falling Foss, a 10m waterfall - is this runnable?!)
Kielder Burn (Kielder Trib)
Langdon Beck (Tees Trib)
Leven (Tees Trib)
Lewis Burn (Kielder Water Trib)
Lune (Tees Trib from Grassholme Reservoir and above Selset reservoir including Lune Head Beck and Long Grain)
Murk Esk (Yorksire Esk Trib, fed by West Beck & Eller Beck - which contain a number of waterfalls including Thomason Foss)
Maize Beck (Tees Trib)
Middlehope Burn (Wear Trib)
Nent (South Tyne Trib)
Nidd
Park Burn (South Tyne Trib)
Rede (North Tyne Trib)
Scalby Beck
Seph (Rye Trib)
Seven (Rye Trib)
Skerne (Tees Trib)
Stanhope Burn (Wear Trib)
Stonesdale Beck (Swale Trib) (expecting guide soon)
Tarret Burn (North Tyne Trib)
Tarset Burn (North Tyne Trib)
Walden Beck (Ure Trib)
Wansbeck
Warksburn (North Tyne Trib)

New Sections

Aire (all of it apart from the playspots)
Calder (all of it apart from Hebden Bridge to Brighouse)
Coquet (above Alnwinton, below Rothbury)
Derwent (Yorkshire, above Malton)
Ouse (South of York)
Tees (Cauldron Snout to High Force, Piercebridge to Neasham, Over Dinsdale to Barrage)
Tyne (After Confluence of North+South)
Wear (Witton-le-Wear to Bishop Auckland)
Wharfe (Below Otley)
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim Pullen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:08 pm

...and similarly for the North West (but maybe not quite as comprehensive):

Bleng (Irt Trib)
Brock (Wyre Trib)
Caldew (Lower river)
Clapham Beck (Wenning Trib)
Cocker (Derwent Trib)
Crosby Gill (Duddon Trib)
Cunsey Beck (Windermere Trib, from Esthwaite Water)
Darwen (Ribble Trib)
Dee (Rawthey Trib)
Eden (Upper)
Ellen
Force Beck (Rusland Pool, Leven Trib)
Gatesgarthdale Beck (Buttermere Trib)
Gayle Beck (Ribble Trib)
Glenderaterra (Greta Trib)
Goldrill Beck (Ullswater Trib)
Hayswater Gill (Goldrill Beck Trib)
Irt
Kent (above Scroggs Bridge)
Keskadale Beck (Newlands beck Trib)
Leith (Lyvennet Trib)
Lickle (Duddon Sands Trib)
Lingmell Beck (Wast Water Trib)
Logan Beck (Duddon Trib)
Liza (Ennerdale Water Trib)
Lowther (Eamont Trib)
Lyne (Border Esk Trib)
Lyvennet (Eden Trib)
Marron (Derwent trib)
Mosedale Beck (NE, Greta Trib)
Mosedale Beck (SW, Wast Water Trib)
Nether Beck (Wast Water Trib)
Oxendale Beck (Great Langdale Beck Trib)
Petteril (Eden Trib)
Rydal Beck (Rothay Trib)
Scandale Beck (Ravenstonedale, Eden Trib)
Stainforth Beck (Ribble Trib)
Swindale Beck (Eden Trib)
Trout Beck (North, Greta Trib)
Wyth Burn (Thirlmere Trib)
Yewdale Beck (Coniston Water Trib)
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Re: What's missing?

Post by KenHy » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:20 pm

Jim wrote:Further north in the West Highlands the Fassfern seem to be missing (can't see it listed under it's gaelic name which escapes me just now)
An tSullig or something like that. It's missing anyway

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Re: What's missing?

Post by clarky999 » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:26 pm

Some of the high water Aberdeen playwaves could be added to the playspots section

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:34 pm

KenHy wrote:
Jim wrote:Further north in the West Highlands the Fassfern seem to be missing (can't see it listed under it's gaelic name which escapes me just now)
An tSullig or something like that. It's missing anyway
An t'suileag perhaps? - it was an irishman who taught me the pronunciation is quite different to the phonetic attempts we had been making :) Obviously I can't remember how he said it should be pronounced either, Fassfern seems safer.

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Re: What's missing?

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:45 pm

There's a wealth of info on the rivers. Fantastic job.

I was wondering if it would be useful to be able to view them by different criteria - other than location?
Say by grade or by type?

No idea if there's any/much additional work involved. I was assuming it's kinda database driven, so can be cut up many ways.
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:01 pm

DaveBland wrote:There's a wealth of info on the rivers. Fantastic job.
Not to pick on you especially, but many seem to have missed it over the years - the guidebook was how this website started!
Funny how quickly the forum became the core of the site and the guides often get overlooked!

That said it took Mark and others some time to convince me to join the forum here instead of usenet (which was going rapidly downhill), so I reckon I've been using the forum as long or possibly longer than the guides. Looks like I joined in April 2002, I was still running everything in my Glide back then, in fact my Avatar is from an April 2002 trip to California... Is that real join date or did we have to rejoin after an early site migration? Seems like I would have been on the forum before then, 2000 sounds more right to me, possibly 1999?

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:34 pm

KenHy wrote:
Jim wrote:Further north in the West Highlands the Fassfern seem to be missing (can't see it listed under it's gaelic name which escapes me just now)
An tSullig or something like that. It's missing anyway
Oooh, I've paddled it as well. I'll add a guide shortly.
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:36 pm

jriddell wrote:Agree on the maps, I've been wanting to get mine included in the guide for years. http://whitewater.quaker.eu.org/
Simple - post a link at the bottom of the guides that you've mapped.
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:38 pm

Jim wrote:Leven: Loch Lomond to Clyde Confluence.
Cheers Jim, I'll turn those notes into a guide.
Jim wrote:the Dubh Lighe
Oh yes, I remember paddling that - will add a guide.
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:41 pm

Jim Pullen wrote:This is what I think is still missing from the North East that should be paddleable, sections in bold I know have been paddled and are supposed to be good:

New Rivers

Akenshaw Burn (Kielder Water Trib)

...
Wharfe (Below Otley)
That's a really impressively thorough list...anyone who has looked at the NE/NW sections will know how much great work Jim has done editing these. Not for money, not for glory, just for the love of it.

But Jim, just out of interest...do the letters O, C and D mean anything to you?
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:42 pm

clarky999 wrote:Some of the high water Aberdeen playwaves could be added to the playspots section
Fancy sharing a few notes about them?
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Re: What's missing?

Post by janet brown » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:45 pm

Mark R wrote:
Jim Pullen wrote:This is what I think is still missing from the North East that should be paddleable, sections in bold I know have been paddled and are supposed to be good:

New Rivers

Akenshaw Burn (Kielder Water Trib)

...
Wharfe (Below Otley)
That's a really impressively thorough list...anyone who has looked at the NE/NW sections will know how much great work Jim has done editing these. Not for money, not for glory, just for the love of it.

But Jim, just out of interest...do the letters O, C and D mean anything to you?
I presumed that was a wish-list?

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Re: What's missing?

Post by TomJ » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:46 pm

Jim Pullen wrote:Scalby Beck
Definitely goes and absolutely worth it, I'm planning to take care of the guide when all this snow melts!

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim Pullen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:56 pm

Mark - I thought OCD was compulsory for guidebook editors?! Unfortunately it doesn't extend to anything useful like work or cleaning the house :-)

Most of the list was cobbled together a few years ago, with about a dozen rivers knocked off each one since then by a few keen paddlers. It's not so much of a wish list as I'm sure about 90% are horrendous tree ditches, but there are a few I'd love to run if I could just persuade some locals to paddle something other than the Swale when levels are high around here!
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Re: What's missing?

Post by Mark R » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:59 pm

Jim Pullen wrote:Mark - I thought OCD was compulsory for guidebook editors?!
;-)
Jim Pullen wrote:...if I could just persuade some locals to paddle something other than the Swale...
It's no coincidence that every new SW ditch that I've paddled in the last 12 months has been a solo mission...
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Re: What's missing?

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:19 pm

Jim wrote:
DaveBland wrote:There's a wealth of info on the rivers. Fantastic job.
Not to pick on you especially, but many seem to have missed it over the years
Not feeling picked on and not missing the original and main thrust of the site. I think the name probably gives it away :)
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Re: What's missing?

Post by NathanE » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:25 am

Following this and the recent guide to Moor Brook I thought I'd post an opinion despite not being a particularly seasoned paddler.

Given comments here and elsewhere about there being loads of less paddled/smaller/G2 streams that have not historically been covered on the site and in the EWW book, I wonder if there's another guide book in them rather than just making EWW bigger. I do use and really rate the site river info by the way, but I'm old school and still enjoy having a book in my hands.

As a newcomer to paddling this year enjoying paddling G3 and taking my time to build my skills rather than just "survive" ever harder water I'd be very interested in an "easier white water" guide that I could use personally and particularly for finding stuff to paddle with my kids who are most comfy on G2.

Current guides seem to have a fairly high proportion of G3+ water - this may be representative of what is out there, but it might also be a result of the fact that folk competent to compile a guide with authority are both super comfortable on higher grades and (understandably) more interested in exploring new harder water rather than less exciting stuff.

To a newcomer (personal view here) this can be a bit intimidating and could even be a deterrent for people getting into the sport. Although I also acknowledge that it may also be a good thing in that it certainly encouraged me to seek a club to paddle with which has brought me into contact with experienced boaters who are happy to help me develop river and safety knowledge rather than me stepping into the unknown solo.

Anyway, if you ever decided to do a G2/G3 guide book, you would definately have one customer for it! Actually there's another idea,

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Re: What's missing?

Post by Jim Pullen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:38 pm

NathanE wrote:Given comments here and elsewhere about there being loads of less paddled/smaller/G2 streams that have not historically been covered on the site and in the EWW book, I wonder if there's another guide book in them rather than just making EWW bigger.
I think it's slightly more complicated in that a lot of the grade 2 ditches out there that haven't been covered tend to need more than grade 2 skills to paddle. By this I mean they only run in high/spate conditions, are fast flowing and small, so have few eddies and are inevitably littered with trees and strainers! I think that EWW and others do cover the vast majority of the nice big friendly grade 2s suitable for beginners or families and it's only the real river-baggers who have any interest in the unrecorded ditches!

In fact the main reason for investigating them is that just once in a while something you expected to be a grade 2 tree ditch actually turns out to have a hidden grade 3/4 gorge or similar that wasn't apperent from the OS map. Near me Hudeshope and Sleightholme Becks are classic examples, which have only been widely reported in the last couple of years and were previously assumed to not have anything of interest in them.
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Re: What's missing?

Post by geyrfugl » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:57 pm

are inevitably littered with trees and strainers!
In Jim's area, too, you will find nice friendly gamekeepers put logs over spate becks for evil carnivores to cross, keeping their paws dry. There's a nasty trap on the top for the carnivores, but underneath is a nasty trap for paddlers - just who are they out to kill ?? Since these are, as Jim says, the becks that only go in big spate, more than grade 2 skills may be needed, even though there's only one (or fewer) line and no room to turn the boat sideways - eg. it's useful to be able to paddle up the bank on a 45 degree snow slope when you find one of these things ahead of you with no eddies before you hit it. Alternatively, calmly pivot the boat and jam both ends into the banks so you can step out and only spend ten minutes getting the boat out of the pin.....

There are two such traps on the Little Hudeshope Beck, and it looks as though there were two others that have currently been washed out... I'll go and find the thread for that guide.

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Re: What's missing?

Post by irish_dougal » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:42 am

I have to admit I haven't read this thread in its enitireity so if its already been mentioned then I apologise, however being the UK rivers guidebook I'm feeling N.I. is missing. I can't be the only paddler from Northern Ireland on here and I'd certainly be happy to write up a few guides and if there are others from this part of the UK maybe they could help out. Perhaps starting another thread to see if there are others or do you have some way of telling from people's profiles?

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KenHy
Posts: 97
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: What's missing?

Post by KenHy » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:31 am

irish_dougal wrote:I have to admit I haven't read this thread in its enitireity so if its already been mentioned then I apologise, however being the UK rivers guidebook I'm feeling N.I. is missing. I can't be the only paddler from Northern Ireland on here and I'd certainly be happy to write up a few guides and if there are others from this part of the UK maybe they could help out. Perhaps starting another thread to see if there are others or do you have some way of telling from people's profiles?
WWW.irishwhitewater.com covers Northern Ireland.

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