Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:45 am

Easle100 wrote:Go to the SCA website and you can get the Insurance doc there. Here is the link to the doc: http://www.canoescotland.org/Portals/0/ ... 012-13.pdf
That is not 'the insurance doc', that's 'an insurance doc'; the schedule. As 'the insured' you would expect to be given a copy of the terms and conditions. I haven't checked recently what is available but for years the terms were not provided by the BCU and when I entered into a protracted discussion with the man responsible it eventually transpired that they were not going to give it to me on the grounds of commercial sensitivity. I simply contacted the broker, told them who I was and they sent me a copy of the terms by email. Admittedly they were from the previous year but I was guessing the general thrust would be unchanged. I still have the information from RSA but it is getting out of date (2009) but they seem to using the same insurance company.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by SDG » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:54 pm

I have been trying since December to get a clear response as to what is "regognized" BCU activity, and is therefore covered by the policy. Stand up paddle boarding specifically IS, so what about bodyboarding or standard surf boards (it just says "surfing" on the schedule)? Are all those kids raft games covered ("after school activities" is listed)? Jumping in? Or is that "coasteering / canyoning"? Swimming? Presumably as an FSRT / WWSR / AWWSR / ASSR provider you are covered for supervising people in the water without boats? Are we covered on the walk in / out or is that not part of "canoeing activity" and we need separate "scrambling" or "gorge walking" cover? "Major expedition" is specifically listed on the schedule - does that mean I am insured to teach / supervise buschcraft skills, etc? Far too vague. Perkins Slade referred my queries back to the BCU, guess what, still waiting for a response 4 months later!

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Easle100 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:19 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Easle100 wrote:Go to the SCA website and you can get the Insurance doc there. Here is the link to the doc: http://www.canoescotland.org/Portals/0/ ... 012-13.pdf
That is not 'the insurance doc', that's 'an insurance doc'; the schedule. As 'the insured' you would expect to be given a copy of the terms and conditions. I haven't checked recently what is available but for years the terms were not provided by the BCU and when I entered into a protracted discussion with the man responsible it eventually transpired that they were not going to give it to me on the grounds of commercial sensitivity. I simply contacted the broker, told them who I was and they sent me a copy of the terms by email. Admittedly they were from the previous year but I was guessing the general thrust would be unchanged. I still have the information from RSA but it is getting out of date (2009) but they seem to using the same insurance company.
Check the SCA website, its under the section for Info and Advice / Documents / Insurance policy. If its worded in the Insurance policy then its law to RSA. If not then its local policy that governs, although this is purely local rules.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:49 am

I'm not challenging what it says, I am merely pointing out that the document linked is only part of the story. If you check the bottom of page I you will see that the details in the 'certificate' are subject to the terms and conditions and exclusions of the policy. I am not aware that these terms and conditions have been made available but if they have that would clear up a lot of the queries.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Steve Linksted » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:09 pm

Robert Craig wrote:I've copied my rant above to Steve Linksted - as Clubs Director of the SCA, he seemed the most relevant person.
Hi Robert,

Thank you for emailing me and bringing this to my attention. This issue was raised at the SCA Board meeting last night, and is high on the action list to contact BCU/RSA to try and resolve the issues that have been raised. In the meantime, I cannot speculate beyond the document already linked to on the SCA website, but if answers are forthcoming from BCU or RSA, they will be made available.

Steve Linksted
Clubs Director,
Scottish Canoe Association.
steve.linksted@canoescotland.org

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:37 am

Steve Linksted wrote:I cannot speculate beyond the document already linked to on the SCA website,
But surely you must have access to the full terms and conditions?

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Easle100 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:11 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:I'm not challenging what it says, I am merely pointing out that the document linked is only part of the story. If you check the bottom of page I you will see that the details in the 'certificate' are subject to the terms and conditions and exclusions of the policy. I am not aware that these terms and conditions have been made available but if they have that would clear up a lot of the queries.
You were correct. There are additional notes for this policy. The main points are contained in the linked document however there are a lot more. It is a huge additional document.

I have had a read over it and as far as I can see (back to the main point) as long as the person "newbie" is classed as a member, irrespective of whether they pay for sessions or not is covered by the policy. If they are not classed as a "member" then the policy does not cover them.

Section 1 main doc, endorsement 1 and Exclusions to sub section 1 in the terms doc.

If anyone wants the additional docs PM me an email address and I'll send the lot over. Lots of reading and head scratching is required.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Robert Craig » Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:26 pm

Critical point is whether clubs are covered for damage to the newbie. I'd guess almost by the definition of newbie that few would worry about negligence by the newbie

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Nick_ » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:34 am

It's not referenced in the official policy document, but it's clearly on the Perkins Slade BCU site, which is linked from the BCU site as being valid for all home nation members and affiliated clubs apart from Wales.
Are non-members covered by the policy for ‘taster’ sessions?
Individuals who may be interested in joining a club are insured for a maximum of 4 initial “taster” sessions.

For indemnity to apply it is essential that the club records their name, address and dates of attendance. These details must be retained as they may be called upon in the event of a claim. The individual must be a member from their 5th visit.

Failure to do so may mean that the insurance will be invalidated in the event of a claim.
It's then referenced in the policy summary as extending full cover to 'non insured' for 4 'taster' sessions.

Full wording: http://www.perkins-slade.com/files/For% ... 8.2011.pdf

Policy summary: http://www.ps-bcu-insurance.com/files/P ... 0Cover.pdf
See you on the water!

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:49 am

Good hunting Nick, now why couldn't they just put that up on the various home nation websites?

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Xan » Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:52 pm

by Nick_ » Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:34 pm

It's not referenced in the official policy document, but it's clearly on the Perkins Slade BCU site, which is linked from the BCU site as being valid for all home nation members and affiliated clubs apart from Wales.


Are non-members covered by the policy for ‘taster’ sessions?
Individuals who may be interested in joining a club are insured for a maximum of 4 initial “taster” sessions.

For indemnity to apply it is essential that the club records their name, address and dates of attendance. These details must be retained as they may be called upon in the event of a claim. The individual must be a member from their 5th visit.

Failure to do so may mean that the insurance will be invalidated in the event of a claim.

It's then referenced in the policy summary as extending full cover to 'non insured' for 4 'taster' sessions.

Full wording: http://www.perkins-slade.com/files/For% ... 8.2011.pdf

Policy summary: http://www.ps-bcu-insurance.com/files/P ... 0Cover.pdf
Just be careful using the second link as this is aimed at Canoe England, who's cover dirffers to what has been agreed with the SCA. If you refer to my previous comment this has been confirmed by the insurers themselves, and they are trying to put in place a similar document for the SCA.

jimmyjjohn

Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by jimmyjjohn » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:58 am

Hi dear

You should be covered by your club's insurance with your governing body, we are in England.

Thanks

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Robert Craig » Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:37 pm

jimmyjjohn wrote:Hi dear

You should be covered by your club's insurance with your governing body, we are in England.

Thanks
"should" is the appropriate word. The difficulty is in the small print of some statements made by the broker, which appears to indicate that there is a category of people for which a club would not be covered for if the club were to damage them.

This is limiting the activities of clubs here in Scotland.

In my opinion, we need an insurer who is willing and able to write an insurance policy in clear English. The current insurer is apparently either unwilling or incapable.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Robert Craig » Thu May 08, 2014 7:41 pm

I've been poking some more at this, and the SCA has done some work to get confusing information removed (for which thanks).

Anyone still aware of any published information suggesting that there is category of person who, if a Club damaged them as part of a canoeing activity, might result in the Club not being covered by the insurance?

Note the careful wording here: it's not a question as to whether newbies or non-club-members are covered for their own negligence.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by DaveB » Fri May 09, 2014 12:35 pm

I have no specific information but I would be astonished to find that an insurance policy restricted the cover it gave to its insured by reference to the identity of/character of the person who is claiming damages based on the insured person's alleged negligence.

Paddling on my local placid water I could conceivably act in a stupid/negligent way and cause loss or harm to a fellow club member/ a non member on a taster session/ members of the local rowing club/owners of motor boats/clients of a local paddlesport centre/anglers. Whoever the victim of my negligence is I am sure that I would be covered by the BCU policy. I think that a lot of the responses in this old thread mix up the separate issue of whether newbies could claim cover under a club policy if they were accused of causing harm by their own negligence; a point which you already to take on board but which was not perhaps taken on by some earlier posters.

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Re: Insurance for non-members (newbies) at pool sessions

Post by Robert Craig » Wed Jun 04, 2014 1:16 pm

Finally got round to asking the right people. I contacted the Insurer, who referred me to the broker, Perkins Slade.

I asked whether there were any categories of people which a Club or its members on a Club activity could damage negligently where the insurance would not apply.

Michael Cashmore of Perkins Slade phoned me, and followed this up with a email.

He said there were no categories of people excluded - the insurance covers negligent damage to anyone. The activities covered are those which a canoe club would normally do - so it includes social events.

The confusion is that the insurance is extended beyond this, and is extended to cover negligence by non-members during their first six (yes, 6 not 2) taster sessions.

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