Which Pulley?

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Big Henry
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Which Pulley?

Post by Big Henry »

I have been considering investing in a pulley for potential pinned boat situations etc, but have found quite a variety available (Rescue Pulley, Partner Pulley, Oscillante, Mini Swing Cheek, Fixe, Mini Prusik Minding Pulley, Tandem, etc...and they are just the Petzl ones!) and they come with a wide price range, starting at less than a tenner (Oscillante) to over £40. What should I be looking for when choosing one?

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by morsey »

Don't bother, get one of those spangly Palm rescue tapes. It gives much better force than using rope and has no need for pulleys! And is multi functional. :-)

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by morsey »

Si Westgarth gave some feedback from Rescue 3 testing some time back:
Using only a traditional dynamic rope throwline with krabs, one guy could get 180Kg loading on to the line.
Interestingly using a static line, it was less than 170Kg, with same said chap loading the rope.
If they added pulleys to the 2 same directionally loaded krabs, they got 240Kg
And using a sling, they got to 280Kg.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by nutterboy »

I have a couple of the petzl oscilante's and they work fine. Problem with getting more exspensive ones is they get grit and stuff from the river in them and don't clean out as easily (I find anyways). Also, if you trash or lose one, £10 is less of a hit than £40 or £50
temperature is a state of mind

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Try this one at home......

Image

No pulley needed, just 3 crabs & 3 slings, makes 4:1 mechanical advantage and easy to do too. Here's just the place to try out the PigRig amongst other things.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Ian Dallaway »

Simon Westgarth wrote:No pulley needed, just 3 crabs & 3 slings, makes 4:1 mechanical advantage and easy to do too.
I totally agree that this is the way forward and it all fits in a BA pocket too.

I do count 4 crabs in the picture though Simon! You can get away with using one less crab by using a no-knot on the end of the throwline instead of the Italian hitch shown in the picture (though the Italian hitch is far better and much more practical).

You also probably also need a crab on the boat end of the throwline - so that takes the count back up to 4...

People talk about carrying 'pin kits' - I don't carry such an animal, but I do carry 4 crabs, 3 tapes (slings) and a throwline. I use these for a multitude of purposes, including Simon's picture above.

Happy new year,
Ian
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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Tea Boy Tom »

I also really advocate the 'mini pig rig' system. The problem with pulleys is their specificity. As Morsey points out, tape passing over karabiners is efficient and the tape can be used for loads of other applications too.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by mark Hirst »

This it the transport hitch I learnt last year whilst in the states

Another really useful additional tool to add to the box
http://swiftwaterrescue.com/swiftwater- ... tch-video/

2 clove hitches, 2 crabs, self minding
awesome

have a play good luck
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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by garya »

I have seen the transport hitch used too. It is a really quick and easy way to rig a z drag if you dont have a prussic to hand. I can see it would be difficult to impossible reset though if you need to pull further.

The tape system works really well and is quick and easy to setup with minimum kit, plus you dont have loads of line to manage or get tangled up in. Its great in when your a tight spot too without much room to setup. it is fine for most 99% of situations you will ever need a mecanical advantage system in.

I have only ever had to use pulley's where we where hauling loads over a longer distance where using ropes instead of tape makes more sence and results in less reseting of the system, or with bigger loads like rafts where we where using static ropes and needed to get a much bigger crew on the hauling line to add more pulling power. They can also be usful to change the direction of pull if you want to pull parralel to the bank because this offers a better footing or more room. They can also be useful for zip lining kit over obstacles



Where I have used pulley's I prefer the Petzl Fixe http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/single-pulleys/fixe
I have two of these that I keep in my boat with some extra kit to back up the tape an crabs I carry on my person.

The reason I choose the Fixe over other pullies is due to its size and safety. If there is a failure with the baring or central pin then the rope stays trapped within the system and load will remain safe. i consider this much better considering the critical time I may have to rely on them. They are not much bigger or heaver that the Oscillante but I think they are much safer and can handle more load as well.

As I said it is very rare for a pulley to be nessasary or used give the tape system is more efficient and can be carried on the person in a BA where it is immideatly to hand when needed quickly in an emergancy.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by bigdave17 »

I use the DMM roller krabs. Essentially theyre screwgate krabs with a built in pulley. Very useful and means that when you use a krabtheres automatically a pulley there. If the pulley fails the krab is still there to hold the rope.

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Re: Which Pulley?

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

I am going to be very critical of complex systems, it is all very well trying to set up on a course when your with an instructor but in reality when I needed it most your mind goes blank. I had to pull a boat off Newbridge stantion River Dart in darkness at 1st step level, as it was my sons boat and he was somewhere upstream, obviously swam for some reason. My mind was more on was he ok. It took a while to work out how to set up with allsorts of kit available.
We sorted it after a bit of toing and froing. So today with 3 others we went through all the different set ups and worked out the quickest and simplist methods that when the s**t hits the fan will be usable with a minimum amount of gear.
Worked out all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners, maybe a prussik but not totally needed unless you need to pull all the way to bank, forget the pulley its not needed.
As I had lent my throwline to someone I managed to pull the boat off and rescue successfully full of water with a Weasal thin line as well.
Mark

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by morsey »

Mark Dixon wrote:Worked out all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners, maybe a prussik
How many boat pins have you ever had to deal with?

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Ian Dallaway »

Hi Mark,
there are many 'simple' ways of unpinning a boat, some require no kit whatsoever, some may only need a rope and a means of attaching to the pinned boat. For more complicated and difficult rescues you may need a few other bits and pieces but the crucial bit is the knowledge of what will work the best in that specific situation.

As for the HF weasel throwline - it's a superb throwline. It can be a bit stretchy for boat rescues if there's a big load involved but it's far better than some of the other thin ropes out there.
Ian

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by garya »

Mark Dixon wrote:I am going to be very critical of complex systems, it is all very well trying to set up on a course when your with an instructor but in reality when I needed it most your mind goes blank. I had to pull a boat off Newbridge stantion River Dart in darkness at 1st step level, as it was my sons boat and he was somewhere upstream, obviously swam for some reason. My mind was more on was he ok. It took a while to work out how to set up with allsorts of kit available.
We sorted it after a bit of toing and froing. So today with 3 others we went through all the different set ups and worked out the quickest and simplist methods that when the s**t hits the fan will be usable with a minimum amount of gear.
Worked out all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners, maybe a prussik but not totally needed unless you need to pull all the way to bank, forget the pulley its not needed.
As I had lent my throwline to someone I managed to pull the boat off and rescue successfully full of water with a Weasal thin line as well.
Mark
I found regular practice with my own kit has helped me become much quicker and effective at setting thes up fast and when under stress. practicing with your regular paddling buddies is good too.

I split the job into three distict parts with kit for each.

1) line on the boat to secure it
....try brute strength while other things are happening ( 1 x rope and crab )

2) Build an anchor point.
.... you probably want this at some stage to control and secure the boat once free and give you a breather so might as well get one person started building it straight away ... can also use it for hauling if needed. ( 1 x tape and crab or no knot and crab on second throw bag)

3) Use Pigrig for MA
.... one person can prep 1x prussic and crab to attach to haul line. Then use 1 x tape + crab for haul system.

These parts can the be delegated to different team members. it also helps make it simpler to get each part quick and setup right and to rember what to do

With practice you can learn which bits of kit you can drop from above or how to improvise an alternative if you are short of somthing.. like the transport hitch show earlier if all you have is rope and crabs to get a z drag working. if each member arrives on scene with 1 x rope 1 x tape 1x prisic and 2 x crab you should be able to put any system together if there are two of you there.

practice, practice until it is automomus acion what you need to do to setup stuff

Gary A

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

morsey wrote:
Mark Dixon wrote:Worked out all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners, maybe a prussik
How many boat pins have you ever had to deal with?
I have dealt with my fair few and quick and easy is way forward, I done 2 WWSR with different providers and 1 was very technical yet the other was the opposite. He was right in saying keep it simple as all the ones I've dealt can be done simply as most boats only need to be moved a few feet then they are not pinned. I set up a simple little system that does exactly the same as a complex system in less than a minute.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

garya wrote:
Mark Dixon wrote:I am going to be very critical of complex systems, it is all very well trying to set up on a course when your with an instructor but in reality when I needed it most your mind goes blank. I had to pull a boat off Newbridge stantion River Dart in darkness at 1st step level, as it was my sons boat and he was somewhere upstream, obviously swam for some reason. My mind was more on was he ok. It took a while to work out how to set up with allsorts of kit available.
We sorted it after a bit of toing and froing. So today with 3 others we went through all the different set ups and worked out the quickest and simplist methods that when the s**t hits the fan will be usable with a minimum amount of gear.
Worked out all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners, maybe a prussik but not totally needed unless you need to pull all the way to bank, forget the pulley its not needed.
As I had lent my throwline to someone I managed to pull the boat off and rescue successfully full of water with a Weasal thin line as well.
Mark
I found regular practice with my own kit has helped me become much quicker and effective at setting thes up fast and when under stress. practicing with your regular paddling buddies is good too.

I split the job into three distict parts with kit for each.

1) line on the boat to secure it
....try brute strength while other things are happening ( 1 x rope and crab )

2) Build an anchor point.
.... you probably want this at some stage to control and secure the boat once free and give you a breather so might as well get one person started building it straight away ... can also use it for hauling if needed. ( 1 x tape and crab or no knot and crab on second throw bag)

3) Use Pigrig for MA
.... one person can prep 1x prussic and crab to attach to haul line. Then use 1 x tape + crab for haul system.

These parts can the be delegated to different team members. it also helps make it simpler to get each part quick and setup right and to rember what to do

With practice you can learn which bits of kit you can drop from above or how to improvise an alternative if you are short of somthing.. like the transport hitch show earlier if all you have is rope and crabs to get a z drag working. if each member arrives on scene with 1 x rope 1 x tape 1x prisic and 2 x crab you should be able to put any system together if there are two of you there.

practice, practice until it is automomus acion what you need to do to setup stuff

Gary A
Why spend all that time?

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by garya »

Why spend all that time?
I think that quaility time spent practicing skills on a regular basis is seldom wasted and keeps me current and up to date as well..it prevents skill fade.

It also helps me focus on the task in hand in-spite of any outside stress or presure when you realy need to get it right despite the enviroment, conditions, emotional stress or fear....

as you rightly say if you have to perform a complex task it is one thing to do this in a nice sunny course enviroment.. but quite another on a dark and stormy night when you are concerned for the safety of friends and family.

Simple is good and 9/10 times a simple crab on the end of a throwbag plus brute force is all that is needed. if this dosn't work then you are going to need an anchor of some sort ready to use, so if you have the people spare you might as well do this concurrently at the start to save time...

I am a great fan of the simple 4:1 internal roving system which is really quick to setup if the distance to boat and your rope legnth allows it and is super quick and easy to setup. If there is a convient tree that works then you can even take the rope around the back of it and it will still work without the need or time for waiting an anchor to be setup ... throw the bag out to boat clip line to grap loop, throw rest of line and bag back to bank take free end of line around convient tree and clip to bottom of back and set the roving system and pull.. its very quick fast and works

Many cases of pinned boats are not emergancies as such and if the paddler is safe you have the luxury of time on your side. Taking time to setup a good system makes sense as it keeps the rest of the team safe. you have less stress and strain on your teams bodies hauling on the line. People are also less like to loose footing and fall into the river or down a bank or be pulled of balance when the boat comes free.

Gary A

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

If he river is rising you dont have time on our hands and I think too many cooks spoil the broth as everyone has a different method of doing it

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by jackbay131 »

I agree with practice, practice, practice. Not being able to remember your complex systems under pressure is representative of your practice not necessarily the difficulty of the task. I think its essential to practice both simple and complex. I think keeping it simple is important but it has to be strong enough so learning how to up forces in the simplest way possible is key.

The way i see it the more knowledge i have about MA systems, rope work, scenarios, toys etc the better. Its better to know it, have practiced with it and have it in the back of your boat or bouyancy aid AND then not need to use it or decide to use a fraction of what you have than to need it and not have it / know how to use it.

I bet a lot of people know more than one way to roll, but i bet you mainly use the same one style 99 percent of the time.

Also just ordered two of these and looking forward to playing with them..
http://www.upandunder.co.uk/Outdoor/Cli ... i---10457/
JB
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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by morsey »

An anchor, a clean line and a pulley system is not exactly complex!

Using your rope as the pulley reduces the effective length of your system. Maybe okay on a narrow river, but in a canyon or wide river you may not be afforded the luxury of using five metres of the rope to make the pulley. And if you are in that situation with just two krabs and a tape then you have pretty much lost the option to create a pulley system! Experience says if the boat doesn't release with a simple pull, then you will be needing a whole chunk of force, and maybe from several directions simultaneously.

Knots, wet rope knots! They create weak points in your rope. And, after loading are a pain to release. The stats are available for showing rope/tape failures from knots. The stats are available for different force through systems.

Reduce the chances of failure in the system and increase the force generated by a considerable percentage. Anchor, clean line and tape system, it's a no brainer.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

morsey wrote:An anchor, a clean line and a pulley system is not exactly complex!

Using your rope as the pulley reduces the effective length of your system. Maybe okay on a narrow river, but in a canyon or wide river you may not be afforded the luxury of using five metres of the rope to make the pulley. And if you are in that situation with just two krabs and a tape then you have pretty much lost the option to create a pulley system! Experience says if the boat doesn't release with a simple pull, then you will be needing a whole chunk of force, and maybe from several directions simultaneously.

Knots, wet rope knots! They create weak points in your rope. And, after loading are a pain to release. The stats are available for showing rope/tape failures from knots. The stats are available for different force through systems.

Reduce the chances of failure in the system and increase the force generated by a considerable percentage. Anchor, clean line and tape system, it's a no brainer.
A little tip.. tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like, then take it apart and see how easy that knot comes undone. Or trust me a spare caribiner in any knot will save you effort of undoing it.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Betty »

[/quote]
A little tip.. tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like, then take it apart and see how easy that knot comes undone. Or trust me a spare caribiner in any knot will save you effort of undoing it.[/quote]

Or... just put a piece of stick in the knot.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

Betty wrote:
A little tip.. tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like, then take it apart and see how easy that knot comes undone. Or trust me a spare caribiner in any knot will save you effort of undoing it.[/quote]

Or... just put a piece of stick in the knot.[/quote]
I like it!! Theres always plenty of sticks around

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by morsey »

Mark Dixon wrote:all you need is a throwline, 1 sling and 2 caribiners... tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like
You have used both krabs on one knot, are you going to feed your rope directly through the sling? #chuckle

There is a thing I can't work out, it is how someone on one thread says they have issues holding their course through rapids and then on another thread claims to have dealt with a fair few pins! Not sure the ability matches up with the likely experience, I could be wrong! When reading the various experienced paddlers, coaches and rescue providers all having perfected systems and tested over a period of many year and all coming to very similar conclusions, I'm just a little bit sceptical of a 'New' system that, seems to be non compatible with group work, uses an unknown amount of gear, uses knots when there are simple knot free alternatives and which sounds just as complicated as the standard systems, and no supporting evidence is provided! I'm out.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

Morsey methods change with time and everybody can learn regardless of experience. ( I just proved that with you struggling to undo knots) I admit Ive only been paddling WW a few years. Yet I am learning modern techniques not old ones and not frightened to ask questions.
You dont need to question what I have or have not done, why would I lie?
I carry a pin kit with 2 caribiners, a sling, 2 prussiks and a pulley, my normal sling and throwline has a caribiner each, thats 4 caribiners. more than what I need.
Providers methods are tried and tested but always changing as is the 4 and 5 star award.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Simon Westgarth »

bigdave17 wrote:I use the DMM roller krabs. Essentially theyre screwgate krabs with a built in pulley. Very useful and means that when you use a krabtheres automatically a pulley there. If the pulley fails the krab is still there to hold the rope.
These appear to be a fine solution until grit and sand get into the small pulley wheel, and then it's no longer a pulley.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by garya »

The clove hitch has been used as the knot of choice to tie into anchors in most situations. The knot collapses to a clean line as soon as it is removed from the carabiner even under high load situations.. just be sure to leave a good sized tail of around 30 cms at least before tightening down

Not sure I would advise putting a karrabiner or anything else into a reognised knot incase it cause it to fail through altering friction of the knot.. . or in case someone cliped into the wrong carabiner undoing the knot totally.

Standardised training and methods should ensure the you can trust your team to set things up right... if I asked for an anchor to be built i just expect the person to prepare it and hand me off the karrabiner to clip into... I do a quick check and we would be good to go..

You have to be able to trust your team and there ability in case you are the one who needs the help. if as the leader you get too hands on in the rescuse then you cant stand back and manage the bigger picture and whole team. This does of course depend on the size and abilty of the group you have. Thats why practice is so important.

.... I think the Petzl Fixe is the best pulley (in the rare case you really need to use one) .. ;-)


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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Simon Westgarth »

Betty wrote:
A little tip.. tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like, then take it apart and see how easy that knot comes undone. Or trust me a spare caribiner in any knot will save you effort of undoing it.
Or... just put a piece of stick in the knot.
I am sure added sticks and spare biners to knots work, yet why bother with this, when you can wrap the rope 4 to 6 times on the spine of the crab, if you wish to attach a crab at a point along a rope, as a limited alternative to a prusik knot. The only double figure of eight in the system, should be the one that is attaching the rope to the throw bag, which one would hope should never be undone.

Still Mark, with 1 throw bag, 2 biners & a sling solution, what kind of mechanical advantage did you manage to achieve? Any images?

The tape PigRig solution, is pretty much almost as low as you can get with hardware for a 4:1 external system.

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Re: Which Pulley?

Post by Mark Dixon »

Simon Westgarth wrote:
Betty wrote:
A little tip.. tie a double figure of 8, stick a caribiner in the middle of knot then with another caribiner load it as hard as you like, then take it apart and see how easy that knot comes undone. Or trust me a spare caribiner in any knot will save you effort of undoing it.
Or... just put a piece of stick in the knot.
I am sure added sticks and spare biners to knots work, yet why bother with this, when you can wrap the rope 4 to 6 times on the spine of the crab, if you wish to attach a crab at a point along a rope, as a limited alternative to a prusik knot. The only double figure of eight in the system, should be the one that is attaching the rope to the throw bag, which one would hope should never be undone.

Still Mark, with 1 throw bag, 2 biners & a sling solution, what kind of mechanical advantage did you manage to achieve? Any images?

The tape PigRig solution, is pretty much almost as low as you can get with hardware for a 4:1 external system.
I used a figure of 8 on doubled up end of my throwline as when I was fishing for Sams boat over the side of Newbridge I couldnt see thegrab handle with the bag in the way, so used the other end. That way I could attach the clip 15ft below me.
I havent a photo but will try and sort one out sometime, but I'll explain and maybe you might understand it.
1. put end of throwline through rescue pt.
2. attach sling to tree with caribiner on
3.feed end of rope through caribiner.
4.feed end of rope through caribiner on end of throw line.
5. pull towards tree.
6. When bag reaches convenient place keeping all tight pull main line up while bag goes back towards boat.
7. pull towards tree until boat free or where you want it to be
This is identical to having bag attached to boat, caribiner / sling at tree then prussic/caribiner and pulley to create mechanical advantage.
Tried and tested by top level 5 coach and works a treat. Hope this helps.
Mark

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