A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

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Wildwood Wil
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Wildwood Wil » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:09 pm

soysauce wrote:If this is about price then why not just buy this ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Osprey-OSX-Ca ... 337ac479b5 I just searched for the cheapest new helmet on eBay. AND it will (probably, I wouldn't test it) survive multiple impacts.

Also
dh..

If you want to convince people don't insult them, Dosen't help you make friends.
Would not reccomend this helmet at all, a mate had one, you can squash it in your two hands and dont know how they can say its safe for WW, maybe grade 1! Spend some money on your head, you never know when you might need it!
alexpethybridge wrote:The biggest issue I have with is it are the holes. It wasn't until I went on a whitewater safety course and watched the instructor show us how his helmet created an air pocket for him to breathe with that I understood how important a solid shell is, any holes in the top of the helmet will destroy the pocket that is keeping you alive.
Air pockets? Lol! Why not get a snorkel!

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by alexpethybridge » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:46 pm

Wildwood Wil wrote:
soysauce wrote:
alexpethybridge wrote:The biggest issue I have with is it are the holes. It wasn't until I went on a whitewater safety course and watched the instructor show us how his helmet created an air pocket for him to breathe with that I understood how important a solid shell is, any holes in the top of the helmet will destroy the pocket that is keeping you alive.
Air pockets? Lol! Why not get a snorkel!
If you ever pencil a drop and get pinned but your head is above the water, you'll survive with a solid shell helmet, the water will come over a drop and flow around the helmet, allowing a pocket of air to form in front of your face. If there's holes then the water will fall into the helmet, down your face and cover your nose and mouth - and you'll start to drown.

Don't take the piss.
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jackmyster
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:51 pm

cheers for all the info guys.. seem to ahve made quite a interesting thread!?

Loads of people seem to be hooked on the idea that the bike helmet im using is not desighned for multi impact..- WRONG. It is, mtb takes jsut as many hits as kayaking helmets. Also many people have made the correct point that sweet have unveiled new mtb lids.. you'l notice a very similiar matierial and shape.. sure the bike helmet is aimed at bikers but it really can withstand kayaking..

ALSO just incase noone realised- With any major extreme sport such as motogp, kayaking, motocross or mountain biking ALL THE HELMETS ARE DESIGNED TO TAKE ONE SINGLE IMPACT in an ideal world. In essence every helmet is meant to take on hit and then the shell is comprimesed and is meant to be replaced. The reason why very few people replace their helmets after one hit? cost and laziness, in theory if ANY KAYAKER HAS DROPPED OR TAKEN A HIT TO THE HELMET IT SHOULD BE THROWN AWAY, the same for any sport. The only sport this is policed in is Motogp. For example, if i walk across the paddock, helmet in hand and drop it, no matter how high from the ground, that helmet is comprimsed. I must replace it ( often £500) or i am not allowed to race. ( yes there are rganisations that check all the racers helmets before race)

However this happens in no ( that i know of) other sports.... just to throw that out there...

I do see people's points i really do, but i notice there are others on this frum who partially if not fully agree with me with my first statement on this thread. However this is one interesting debate eh!? :D

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Chalky723 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:19 pm

alexpethybridge wrote:
Wildwood Wil wrote:
soysauce wrote:
Air pockets? Lol! Why not get a snorkel!
If you ever pencil a drop and get pinned but your head is above the water, you'll survive with a solid shell helmet, the water will come over a drop and flow around the helmet, allowing a pocket of air to form in front of your face. If there's holes then the water will fall into the helmet, down your face and cover your nose and mouth - and you'll start to drown.

Don't take the piss.
Ah, but you could put a shower cap over it "just in case".... Or put your hand over your face...

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morsey
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by morsey » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:20 pm

Triathlon usually do a check on helmets.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:34 pm

morsey wrote:Triathlon usually do a check on helmets.
ahh one of the many few :)

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by morsey » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:35 pm

Cycling as well. And Canoe Polo.



Pyro identified the key things to remember, that cross over helmets are a compromise and that they are used for low level activities.


You want to go DH racing get a full facer
You want to paddle the gnarl get a bling kayak helmet
You want to ski, get a snow board and wear your jeans

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banzer
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by banzer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:56 pm

Don't agree that kayaking helmets - good ones - are designed to take a single hit then be discarded. That would make the business of being a beginner and rolling a lot, rather an expensive business. I for one have probably hit my head 30+ times when kayaking, and never when MTBing. It's easier to peddle slowly while you're learning, but you can't make a river slow down. Even a relatively simple grade 2 rapid, once you're in it, you can't just squeeze the brakes and come to a gentle stop if you feel you're getting out of control.

Decent helmets eg rockers can take fairly hefty hits and still be good to go for a long time after.

A good scientific argument there...
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by justin-g » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:04 pm

banzer wrote: I for one have probably hit my head 30+ times when kayaking,..
Now that explains it...
White water "rider"

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Jim Pullen » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Aren't we talking about multiple hits on a single visit to the river bed, rather than multiple incidents? I know I've pogo-sticked my way down a rapid or two on my head a few times - falls of moriston springs to mind straight away. No way would I have rolled up at the bottom without my Rocker!
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by edhunter » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:00 pm

Definately a few occasions when I have wacked my head and thought afterwards id have been K.O.d without a good lid. The difference I see between kayaking and mountain biking is that single hit lids are much less suitable to kayaking due to multiple hits on the head during one head down moment, that with kayaking unlike other sports (paticularly skate and bmx) that if you wack your head you are still probably going to have to use the helmet to get you to the get out and one that fails catastrophically like a mtb lid would be useless if you smashed your head halfway down a gorge. Where as with other sports you can mostly just walk off and come back another day. I've seen a few rockers take huge hits and be ok to last the rest of the trip but to be replaced at home, this isn't ideal but a more "one shot" lid would have left people stranded with no defence.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by -Ginge- » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:26 pm

New Style Rocker thats taken a beating
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 5aU#t=201s

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by TechnoEngineer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:33 pm

jackmyster wrote:Loads of people seem to be hooked on the idea that the bike helmet im using is not desighned for multi impact..- WRONG. It is, mtb takes jsut as many hits as kayaking helmets. Also many people have made the correct point that sweet have unveiled new mtb lids.. you'l notice a very similiar matierial and shape.. sure the bike helmet is aimed at bikers but it really can withstand kayaking..

ALSO just incase noone realised- With any major extreme sport such as motogp, kayaking, motocross or mountain biking ALL THE HELMETS ARE DESIGNED TO TAKE ONE SINGLE IMPACT in an ideal world. In essence every helmet is meant to take on hit and then the shell is comprimesed and is meant to be replaced. The reason why very few people replace their helmets after one hit? cost and laziness, in theory if ANY KAYAKER HAS DROPPED OR TAKEN A HIT TO THE HELMET IT SHOULD BE THROWN AWAY, the same for any sport.
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by scottdog007 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:02 pm


soysauce
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by soysauce » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:38 pm

Wildwood Wil wrote:
soysauce wrote:If this is about price then why not just buy this ? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Osprey-OSX-Ca ... 337ac479b5 I just searched for the cheapest new helmet on eBay. AND it will (probably, I wouldn't test it) survive multiple impacts.
Would not reccomend this helmet at all, a mate had one, you can squash it in your two hands and dont know how they can say its safe for WW, maybe grade 1! Spend some money on your head, you never know when you might need it!
I've got one, it does flex but the shell is still pretty tough, not sure if I trust it anymore.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by rory_inglis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:27 am

jackmyster wrote: Loads of people seem to be hooked on the idea that the bike helmet im using is not desighned for multi impact..- WRONG.
No you are soooooooooo wrong.

The helmet you have linked is made with "EPS" ,expanded polystyrene. It is the cheapest, worst, and has the lowest stress limit, so is much more likely to deform, of any protective material in helmets. Most white water helmets are made out of EPP, which is Expanded Polypropylene. This material is much stronger, it is chemically a much stronger polymer. This material has a much higher stress impact! Both helmets can absorb impact and be fine, however something that will break your EPS helmet will not break your EPP. Hence why an EPP helmet, most WW ones, is multi impact.

The next bit you talk about mtb helmets taking lots of hits, wrong again. In my experience all mtb crashes have one big hit then someone, usually me, is lying on the floor in pain, and walks off/hopples off. In kayaking I go over, and take some hits, roll back up and usually find myself back over taking more hits. then I might decide to swim, and I might take a few more hits, SO we need multi impact hits. Our hits are less severe but more occur, so we need a helmet to cope. a mtb helmet is designed to take one big hit and break to disperse the energy.
jackmyster wrote:ALSO just incase noone realised- With any major extreme sport such as motogp, kayaking, motocross or mountain biking ALL THE HELMETS ARE DESIGNED TO TAKE ONE SINGLE IMPACT in an ideal world. In essence every helmet is meant to take on hit and then the shell is comprimesed and is meant to be replaced. The reason why very few people replace their helmets after one hit? cost and laziness, in theory if ANY KAYAKER HAS DROPPED OR TAKEN A HIT TO THE HELMET IT SHOULD BE THROWN AWAY, the same for any sport. The only sport this is policed in is Motogp. For example, if I walk across the paddock, helmet in hand and drop it, no matter how high from the ground, that helmet is comprimsed. I must replace it ( often £500) or I am not allowed to race. ( yes there are rganisations that check all the racers helmets before race)
So much of this is wrong, i have already said why in kayaking we don't just take one hit. i have also explained how with different materials with a higher stress level the shell will not be deformed from a standard hit, for example the materials in A WHITEWATER KAYAK HELMET!!
If you read about helmets, mtb manufactures recommend a helmet is replaced after a " serious impact" i don't think dropping it from two feet counts, falling on my head off a jump and its lying in pieces does. So your comment about throwing away helmets is rubbish, only if a serious hit, or there is obvious marks on the helmet, though if unsure always buy a new one!
I can not comment about motocross as i have no experience in that. I will say that in motocross you go alot faster than in kayaking, thus a crash will have alot more energy in it, so a helmet is designed to cope with this.

Sweet's mtb helmets look so much like the rocker bet they do the same job!

I went out with a twin a while back, when drunk I once accidentally tried to kiss her sister thinking it was her, and got a slap in the face! Morale of the story if it looks the same it might not actually be the same!!!

If you look deeper into it the sweet mtb you'll find it is made of EPS! whilst the WW is made of EPP, i think i covered the difference.

If you don't believe me, despite me being a chemical engineering student who spends his time learning about different materials, then give this website a read about the different materials in a helmet: http://www.allsportprotection.com/Types ... _s/687.htm

People spent time and money coming up with the best way to protect your head, years of research has been spent on this topic. Please don't think that you instantly know best. Use the helmet for the sport it is meant.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by Wildwood Wil » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:56 am

alexpethybridge wrote:If you ever pencil a drop and get pinned but your head is above the water, you'll survive with a solid shell helmet, the water will come over a drop and flow around the helmet, allowing a pocket of air to form in front of your face. If there's holes then the water will fall into the helmet, down your face and cover your nose and mouth - and you'll start to drown.

Don't take the piss.
Cmon Alex, no need to get upset, i didnt mean to take the piss, i was amused as thats the first i've heard of that one, so i've learnt something today, great! The way you described it , for me i had visions of being under in a hole and unstrapping my helmet for a quick breather from the airpocket! :) Now that youve explained it better i now realise what you were getting at! Cool! No hard feelings mate! Lol!

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by ion » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:03 am

rory_inglis wrote:
jackmyster wrote: Loads of people seem to be hooked on the idea that the bike helmet im using is not desighned for multi impact..- WRONG.
No you are soooooooooo wrong.

The helmet you have linked is made with "EPS" ,expanded polystyrene. It is the cheapest, worst, and has the lowest stress limit, so is much more likely to deform, of any protective material in helmets.
+100 For all of Rory's very accurate summary.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by alexpethybridge » Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:46 am

Wildwood Wil wrote:
alexpethybridge wrote:If you ever pencil a drop and get pinned but your head is above the water, you'll survive with a solid shell helmet, the water will come over a drop and flow around the helmet, allowing a pocket of air to form in front of your face. If there's holes then the water will fall into the helmet, down your face and cover your nose and mouth - and you'll start to drown.

Don't take the piss.
Cmon Alex, no need to get upset, I didnt mean to take the piss, I was amused as thats the first I've heard of that one, so I've learnt something today, great! The way you described it , for me I had visions of being under in a hole and unstrapping my helmet for a quick breather from the airpocket! :) Now that youve explained it better I now realise what you were getting at! Cool! No hard feelings mate! Lol!
Sorry, it had been a long day at work dealing with people who refused to listen, came back and thought I saw more of the same. I agree with you, the idea of using your helmet as a portable air tank is fairly amusing. No hard feelings eh. :)
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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by clarky999 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:00 pm

rory_inglis wrote: I went out with a twin a while back, when drunk I once accidentally tried to kiss her sister thinking it was her, and got a slap in the face! Morale of the story if it looks the same it might not actually be the same!!!
LOOOOL good work dude!

+1 to the rest too.

Btw, I thought 'real' MTB lids were usually full face? That just looks like a 'normal' cycle helmet.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by morsey » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:36 pm

ion wrote:+100 For all of Rory's very accurate summary.
Although missed out that there are different types of EPP.

EPS Moulded (Single hit road cycling helmets, Multihit MTB helmets)
EPP Sheet (Canoeing helmets) The sheet is cut and bent into the plastic shell.
EPP Moulded (Top end canoeing helmets) The foam is moulded to the shape of the helmet.

Which is best?

Big Hits
1) EPP Moulded
2) EPS Moulded
3) EPP Sheet

Resiliance
1) EPP Sheet
2) EPP Moulded
3) EPS Moulded

Look at the shells:
Thin plastic road cycling helmets (about as thick as a poly bag, it is only there to stop the helmet looking like a mushroom)
Medium plastic MTB and low end canoe helmets (MTB shells will take a few knocks and protect the EPS to a small extent, Cheap canoeing helmets will bend in half and seemingly offer little protection!)
Thick plastic Canoe helmets (These will have one or more layers of EPP sheet and the shell well provide a substantial structure that you should not be able to defect by squeezing)
Composite Top end canoe and MTB helmets (Get your credit card out, these bad boys will look after your noggin)

This is how I see the different helmets lining up:
Moulded EPP/Composite (High end Canoeing)
Moulded EPS/Composite (High end MTB Full Face only) **
Sheet EPP/Composite (Mid/high end Canoeing)
Moulded EPP/Hard Plastic (Mid/high end level Canoeing)
Moulded EPS/Hard Plastic (Mid range MTB Full Face Only) **
Sheet EPP/Hard Plastic (Mid level Canoeing)
Sheet EPP/Medium Plastic (Low end Canoeing)
Moulded EPS/Medium Plastic (MTB Open face)
Moulded EPS/Thin Plastic (Road cycling)

Unfortunately it puts the nice colour Giro at the bottom of the pile (all open face MTB helmets are going to be near the bottom because they don't use thick plastic shells (in comparison to mid range canoeing helmets) that improve multi hit aspect of the foam), that is not to say I don't think it is any use as a canoeing helmet, just that it is very limited, as limited as the ebay canoeing variety selected and the Muultisport helmets mentioned, and haven't even considered the issue of coverage (The giro scores low). Lots of people have separate 'Fashion' helmets for playboating compared to the full on safety aspect of the ones they have for river use, so I can understand the thinking behind the OP.


** Reasons why Fullfacers are sport specific. The body/head angle means that MTB full facers have a high optical aperture so they can see the trail ahead whilst leaning forwards. Wear an MTB FF canoeing and the chin guard will block your view, where as using a canoeing FF for MTBing the low brow and visor will block your view ahead!
Image

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jam bo » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:48 pm

Have you ever worn a MTB full face? because that description is bollock and that photo is kind of deceiving. Not sure why Peaty is looking at his front wheel but its not really where you tend to look....

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by callwild » Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:59 pm

Then there is the Petzl Meteor.
Certified for Climbing, Cycling & Whitewater
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/mountai ... meteor-iii
Image

Personally I don't like it or the fit, but know plenty of outdoor instructors who use this across disciplines.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by morsey » Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:09 pm

jam bo wrote:Have you ever worn a MTB full face? because that description is bollock and that photo is kind of deceiving. Not sure why Peaty is looking at his front wheel but its not really where you tend to look....
Yes, many, your opinion shows poor reading skills and limited observation. Steve Peat is not looking at his front wheel, the green line shows where the top of the field of view would be if a canoeing fullfacer was worn. You can clearly see the extra range of view above the green line on the MTB photo. Now look at the green line on the canoeing photo and you are at the top of range of view.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by rory_inglis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:48 pm

morsey wrote:
ion wrote:+100 For all of Rory's very accurate summary.
Although missed out that there are different types of EPP.
You are very right.
I wanted to inform the op about his poor choice in helmet, and back up my arguments with facts, yet be concise and not too technical.
morsey wrote:EPS Moulded (Single hit road cycling helmets, Multihit MTB helmets)
EPS is only multi impact when combined with some form of rebound material, for example protec's SXP! Standard EPS is not multi impact

Interesting points about the full facers being single sports because of view. something I haven't thought about, but I only use a full facer for biking.

Thanks matt and ion

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by jackmyster » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:01 pm

So much of this is wrong, I have already said why in kayaking we don't just take one hit. I have also explained how with different materials with a higher stress level the shell will not be deformed from a standard hit, for example the materials in A WHITEWATER KAYAK HELMET!!
If you read about helmets, mtb manufactures recommend a helmet is replaced after a " serious impact" I don't think dropping it from two feet counts, falling on my head off a jump and its lying in pieces does. So your comment about throwing away helmets is rubbish, only if a serious hit, or there is obvious marks on the helmet, though if unsure always buy a new one!
I can not comment about motocross as I have no experience in that. I will say that in motocross you go alot faster than in kayaking, thus a crash will have alot more energy in it, so a helmet is designed to cope with this.

Dude, you are wrong... this is taken from the official motogp standards website- ***********

If you drop or have a crash in your AGV K3 helmet, you will need to buy a new one. Never keep on using the helmet after this as it won't offer any protection if you have another crash.

The only parts on an AGV helmet that are replaceable if they wear out are the visor and visor mechanism. Spare visors don't cost very much compared to the price of the K3 helmet.

These are available from your local AGV motorcycle helmet dealer.
**********
link here-http://www.helmet-guide.com/agv-motorcycle-helmet.html

So im afraid you are meant to replace the helmets once dropped :/

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by rory_inglis » Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:41 pm

jackmyster wrote:Dude, you are wrong...
Okay when talking about not needing to throw away helmets i was talking about mtb ones, like the rest of that paragraph. I then go on to say that i know nothing about moto sports, in the next paragraph, so I won't comment. which i didn't.

So since i never commented about moto helmets needing to be replaced i can not be wrong. but that's beside the point.

This post was about using mtb helmets to kayak. Something I feel is a stupid idea, and i am not alone in this view: the owner/runner of this website mark R; tom laws part of the team that wrote the new welsh guidebook. you also have many other experienced paddlers in our country have posted their views about this. Please listen to these experienced people and look after your own life and buy a ww helmet and do not advise anyone else to use a mtb helmet to kayak.

I am not trying to win points against you. I just don't want to have to read about you or anyone having used a mtb helmet to go kayaking then ending up in hospital. This will of course get turned in the media about how dangerous the sport is blah blah, which in the end will put people off our great sport.

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by birdie » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Jack

To clarify, motorcycle helmets are a different ball game altogether, they are designed to take one hard impact, potentially at great speed. One drop can write off a motorcycle helmet because of this.

Mtb helmets are designed for mountain biking, good ventilation etc and not for multiple immersion in water.

For the amount of money involved, it doesn't seem worth the risk, but it's your head :)

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Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by davedraperdesign » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:34 am

Just thought I would add a comment... from What I have read Rory Inglis appears to be spot on with his comments... fully agree! Using a cycling helmet for WW kayaking is a dumb idea!

What considering helmet choice for any sport a major deciding factor should be the standard to which it has been built to meet. Whether these standards are a rigorous or truely representative is an arguement for another day.

Kayaking helmets are built to conform to CE 1385.. this includes tests which are tailored to represent the conditions, traumas and use that the helmet is likely to see during it's functional life. The standard for bike helmets (sorry forgot the number) is representative for that sport, and from memory includes a test which replicates an impact with a kerb! Not something likely to be experienced for a kayaking helmet.

As mentioned above, EPS liners are designed to fail upon impact to reduce the force transmitted to the head. The shell on MTB helmets tends to be relatively weak in structure compared to that of a kayaking helmet, as it would be expected to fail upon impact, allowing the EPS liner to deform. The shell on a kayking hemet is designed to stay whole upon impact, relying upon the liner to absorb shock without necessarily deforming. I believe WRSI actually have a patent on multilayer liners found in there helmets which reduce the shock by transmitting it through several types of material.

I wouldn't recommend to anyone buying a helmet not suitable for the application. A helmet is effectively PPE and PPE should always be suitable for purpose.

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Location: Pentir, Bangor, North Wales

Re: A great kayaking helmet- just to put it out there...:)

Post by nick 16 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:48 am

Just to put it out there people always make a comparison of helmets to the benchmark the Sweet Rocker. Honestly after switching to a Wanderer I dont know why as many people went for a Rocker after it came out. To me hits felt better and being a plastic shell seemed more durable and able to take multi hits and you can sometimes pick them up for half the price of a Rocker. Now though the 2012 rockers are out and they have followed suit with a plastic shell but with an added layer of carbon fibre over the cranium. So now for me I'd be more tempted to go back to a Rocker as I like this idea of combining layers with both hard/stiffer and a more durable layer .
Nicholas Ball

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