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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:41 pm
by dougdew99
I got the same email from 'Chris' at BOPA... I presume it is some kind of elaborate practical joke... No one in their right mind would presume to negotiate on behalf of all paddlers and paddling organizations for a right which already exists, and for 'permission' which is not required.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 5:51 pm
by quicky
This is the same guy that was asked to leave the WCA because of his views? I think he might have an enlarged view of himself.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:13 pm
by Pete K
I had the same reply as Dry Suit Tester. Perhaps someone with a better vocab than me should ask for the legal back up for their position on access.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:29 pm
by quicky
Might right to the fishing organisations and ask which 'local' clubs have signed up to this agreement....

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:53 pm
by John Saunders
quicky wrote:Might right to the fishing organisations and ask which 'local' clubs have signed up to this agreement....
According to the PR
Corwen and District, The Midland Fly fishers and Llangollen Maelor Angling
Llangollen Maelor are a recent merger of clubs (though nobody seems to have told Langollen Angling Association about it as their website is still up with a home page statement that "Illegal canoeing continues to be a problem.If you see any canoeing on our waters during the fishing season please contact me through the contacts page.A log of all these trespassers is being kept.Please try to record as much detail as possible including car registration numbers ,name of canoe club or company organising."

If you take a look at the websites of the "3 main Angling clubs on the Welsh Dee" they're not exactly trumpeting the 'agreement':

http://llangollen-maelor-angling.com/blog
http://www.corwenanddistrictanglingclub.co.uk/news.htm
http://www.midlandflyfishers.co.uk/ - maybe the news is too exciting to be allowed beyond the members portal.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:51 pm
by soysauce
Dave Manby wrote:
soysauce wrote:Anyone ever heard this?

“An unjust law is itself a species of violence. Arrest for its breach is more so. Now the law of nonviolence says that violence should be resisted not by counter-violence but by nonviolence. This I do by breaking the law and by peacefully submitting to arrest and imprisonment."

Ghandi
I think that Ghandi had a more serious problem in the scheme of things.
Same principal still#

Anyone noticed this agreement only mentions Canoeists, there is no mention of kayakers anywhere

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:16 pm
by Jones Chris
I was one of the others who got the same reply.

Sent him another email basically asking him what authority he has to go against canoe Wales stated access position and negotiate an agreement for me. Also stated I won't be sticking to it.

Chris

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:19 pm
by MarkEb
Maybe emailing BOPA is the wrong thing to do. Perhaps we should be sending emails to the anglers pointing out that BOPA have no basis to negotiate on our behalf and that the only access agreement we might honor would be one with our NGB. An access agreement such as this with BOPA has no more a validity with us than if it had been made with the WI or the subscribers of the Dandy!

On a slightly different note, I notice that in the press release BOPA intends to run a tour on the Dee in January. I assume BOPA will want to charge for this. No hint of personal self interest here then.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:54 am
by quicky
Have wrote to the fishing clubs and BOPA asking for the list of local canoe clubs that have signed up as well and asking on whos rights they have signed up for a cosy agreement.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:32 pm
by SimonMW
On a slightly different note, I notice that in the press release BOPA intends to run a tour on the Dee in January. I assume BOPA will want to charge for this. No hint of personal self interest here then.
I wish them good luck in finding anyone who wishes to take part in that now!!

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:45 pm
by Mark R
quicky wrote:This is the same guy that was asked to leave the WCA because of his views?
More info, please?

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:13 pm
by quicky
is this, no this is..

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:00 pm
by rain-chaser
Hi all,

I'm heading over to the Dee on Saturday. What's the general advice on access at the pool just above Horse Shoe Falls?

Thanks in advance....

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:11 pm
by SimonMW
General advice is just paddle.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:57 pm
by Adrian Cooper
My advice is to check the route down since there are often problems with fallen trees from the island immediately below the weir. It is for this reason I usually get on below the weir.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:23 pm
by JohnO
quicky wrote:Have wrote to the fishing clubs and BOPA asking for the list of local canoe clubs that have signed up as well and asking on whos rights they have signed up for a cosy agreement.
Llangollen Canoe Club, have had no involvement with this agreement what so ever! In fact the first time I heard about it was when Mike spoke to me Monday. I think this is pretty poor considering the length of time the club has been associated with this stretch of water, surely just out of common courtesy anyone proposing this sort of agreement would have involved the local clubs. We are not exactly difficult to contact, 1st entry on Google (search for "Llangollen canoe Club" ) and we meet at the river every Monday night from April to August.

I look forward to seeing BOPA (Chris Charters) excuse for not contacting us.
mudlark wrote:With the restrictions on evening paddling how will Llangollen Canoe Club function? have they any opinions on the agreement?
Simple, it would kill the club, which would great loss to canoeing. This summer alone we must have introduced 35+ new paddlers to the sport, we currently have 80+ members and have given paid work to 5+ local coaches.

Is this agreement workable for the club - NO!!!

John

Disclaimer - This message is my own personal thoughts and not necessarily the stance of Llangollen Canoe Club

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:37 pm
by quicky
None of the fishing organisations have written back yet...

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:09 pm
by ChrisE
Statement issued on it by canoe england lower down this page:
http://www.industrymailout.com/Industry ... 22a62d634d
Dee Access Agreement, 30th August 2012

Several of our members have asked questions about an “Access Agreement on the River Dee” which has been circulated.

Canoe England has had notification of it but has had no involvement with the proposed “agreement” nor at any time were they contacted to comment on it.

It appears to be a private arrangement and not involving the BCU or one of the Home Nations.

The Section under discussion is in Wales and therefore comes under the auspices of Canoe Wales.

Canoe England would not enter into discussions on any “agreement” that is within the boundary of Wales.

The River Dee is well documented as having a historic right of navigation.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:56 pm
by JohnO
The "Denbighshire free press" published an article on the agreement today. With an endorsement from clwyd south AM ken skates

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 11:29 pm
by quicky

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:02 am
by Uisce
He has a keen interest in enhancing the identity and tourism potential of Clwyd South, as well as improving mental health care and physical fitness
Funny way of showing it

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:12 pm
by quicky
Have written to Ken skates as well. will be interesting to see if he answers or not...

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:29 pm
by JohnO
I too have email Ken, Mike, and BOPA asking them to explain how they could form an agreement with out consulting the local canoe club first - it's a bizarre state of affairs.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:36 pm
by tigerboy
Richard,

you say
What he (Ashley) needs is a massive amount of support from paddlers all over the country to help him fight the access situation.
What do you really want paddlers to do in support of this river access mess?

What can really be done to make things change on all rivers, not just the Dee?

If the fishermen are threatening legal action on the Dee, let them see it through and see where that leads. Even if whoever gets taken to court loose, we would be no worse off than we are already.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:51 pm
by tigerboy
These guys have it on their web site as a done deal!

http://www.thepaddler.co.uk/newswelshdeeaccessh.html

Anybody else want to put them straight on where people stand on it? I have.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:00 pm
by JohnO
tigerboy wrote:What do you really want paddlers to do in support of this river access mess?
I did not get the impression from Richard's post that he was asking paddlers to support this new access agreement, only to support Ashley fight to get good access for all.

Richard can you clarify your stance on this (non) agreement please.
tigerboy wrote:Even if whoever gets taken to court loose, we would be no worse off than we are already.
Actually I think we would, as this would set a legal Precedent which would lead to many more paddlers being taken to court or scared off OUR rivers.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:12 pm
by tigerboy
Now Chris Charters, canoeing's saviour and river negotiator is running tours!!!

Who's going?
In addition to the general permitted access it is hoped that International and tour events will return boosted by the recent Olympic canoeing success.
For event dates availability on the Dee please contact Chris Charters
BOPA is hosting The Wye White Water Workshop & Tour 26th – 28th October and similar on the Dee in January and the Usk in February
BOPA Have also assisted in negotiating Access agreements for the Rivers Wye, Usk, and several more.
For more details: - British Outdoor Professional Association, P.O.Box 9, Llandrindod Wells, and Powys. LD1 6WJ Tel: 01497 847638 email: info@the-bopa.co.uk

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:41 pm
by Nedders
tigerboy wrote:Now Chris Charters, canoeing's saviour and river negotiator is running tours!!!

Who's going?
In addition to the general permitted access it is hoped that International and tour events will return boosted by the recent Olympic canoeing success.
For event dates availability on the Dee please contact Chris Charters
BOPA is hosting The Wye White Water Workshop & Tour 26th – 28th October and similar on the Dee in January and the Usk in February
BOPA Have also assisted in negotiating Access agreements for the Rivers Wye, Usk, and several more.
For more details: - British Outdoor Professional Association, P.O.Box 9, Llandrindod Wells, and Powys. LD1 6WJ Tel: 01497 847638 email: info@the-bopa.co.uk

We should all go, to show the BOPA how happy we are with all they are doing for the sport ha ha.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:25 pm
by Mark RW
What everyone has failed to mention so far is, how are youngsters and other beginners supposed to start whitewater paddling safely. It seems like the only access allowed when levels are safe (definitely below level 9) is to go in the winter, is this the safest time of the year to learn. I take my daughter to Llangollen CC, and now this is being taken away as well, if you do not have youngsters coming through, then you can say goodbye to a healthy future for the sport, especially if this sets a precident.

Re: Dee Access Agreement

Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:34 pm
by blurpup
I think a key stumbling block is the premise that this agreement is granting access to the water, therefore it introduces and reinforces the concept of ownership. This is something which is contested by the BCU and WCA, as the thesis of Rev Caffyn concludes that there is a right of navigation for any river where small craft can be taken.

If the agreement could be turned into a resource sharing agreement - i.e. when is the best time for us to paddle, and when is the best time to fish then the document starts to look more workable (with tweaks to address a number of issues which have already been raised). As it would not be a reinforcement of a debatable legal position, I suspect that paddlers would be more welcoming of something that allows us all (paddlers, fishermen, rafters, swimmers etc) to utilise this stretch of water together.

This would also be an interesting twist to see what the reaction of the fishing community is, whether it's really about trying to get something in statute to give them ownership - or if it is really about sharing the usage.