Dee Access Agreement

Inland paddling
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Strad
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Strad » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:01 pm

While angry swearing people may be guilty of a harassment, people taking photo's of you from public property are not committing an offence. It might be polite to ask permission to photograph someone, it's not a legal requirement (this is even true of those in uniform). good precis of photo rights here: http://www.lfph.org/photographers-rights-in-the-uk . Note taking photo's from private land needs land owner's permission.
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
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Chris Bolton
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Chris Bolton » Thu Oct 18, 2012 7:47 am

strad wrote:Note taking photo's from private land needs land owner's permission.
I would be careful with this.The law is pretty clear that the river belongs to the owners of the banks. A right of navigation on a river doesn't make it public land, any more than a footpath makes a field publicly owned. It might be necessary to look at the law behind this for whether the definition of "public land" is based on ownership or access.

Chris

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by SimonMW » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:00 am

It isn't illegal to take photos from private land. The land owner can ask you to stop taking photographs, and if you refuse then you could be accused of some other offence, not photography related though.

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:28 am

Chris Bolton wrote: I would be careful with this.The law is pretty clear that the river belongs to the owners of the banks.
Not necessarily; the Land Registery are apparrently reviewing riparian boundaries and only recognising this assumption if there is documentary evidence to substantiate it.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Tom_Laws » Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:38 am

We need an amnesty - I'm sure the bloke on the Ogwen the other day got an AWESOME photo of me and Rich, I even smiled and waved mid boof. :-)

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by garya » Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:57 am

Strad wrote:While angry swearing people may be guilty of a harassment, people taking photo's of you from public property are not committing an offence. It might be polite to ask permission to photograph someone, it's not a legal requirement (this is even true of those in uniform). good precis of photo rights here: http://www.lfph.org/photographers-rights-in-the-uk . Note taking photo's from private land needs land owner's permission.
I dont mind people taking photos of me and if it is pissing me off then i can strike a sutibly silly pose to convey the same to the person in the picture. What I do mind is when a guy got out of his car and took a picture of the frout of may car including the registration number and one from the side to show the boats on the roofrack .. when he thought I wasn' t looking.

i was parked in leagaly in a public carpark at the time.. is this intimaidation or inteligence gathering.. I have had my car damaged before.. I dont have uprights and use a factory fit set of roof rails on the car so there is no easy way to immediatly identify it as a padders car when it is discreetly parked near a get out.. I learnt my lesson on that one in north wales a couple of times in the past.

Where do all theses photos end up ??

Gary A

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morsey
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by morsey » Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:22 pm

garya wrote:Where do all theses photos end up ??
I'm on the Tawe Anglers calendar, Yup March pin up boy me. They love my rippling biceps, my torte figure cut in neoprene and they literally drool all over my boof.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:40 pm

morsey wrote:my torte figure
One of the best typos I've seen in a long time. :-)

Lemon torte?

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morsey
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by morsey » Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:25 pm

I'm tasty, what can I say! :-)

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Keith Day » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:42 pm

Tom_Laws wrote:We need an amnesty - I'm sure the bloke on the Ogwen the other day got an AWESOME photo of me and Rich, I even smiled and waved mid boof. :-)

That's exactly the photos we should be giving them - happy people, enjoying the river and wishing well to others who wish to share it.

No doubt they would rather have photos of aggressive, glowering paddlers, hiding their faces and looking guilty - don't give them any. :)

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by whosthedaddy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:43 pm

Just received this email from Ashley Charlwood.
On 18 Mar 2013, at 03:51 PM, "Ashley Charlwood (CW)" <Ashley.Charlwood@canoewales.com<mailto:Ashley.Charlwood@canoewales.com>> wrote:

Hi,

I had an invite to attend the steering group meeting on the 15th March.

It was made clear that the permissions as they stand are not negotiable at this time. I made the case that permissions were not a workable to solution for recreational paddlers.

This permission looks like it will be managed by a new company “The river Dee Partnership Ltd”. This will be managed by 3 representatives from canoeing and 3 from fishing. As it stands this is Mike Dalton, Chris Charters and one other for canoeing.

I will stay involved in the discussions, but am aware that Paddlesport uses the Dee differently to the offer and this will likely create conflict in the months to come.

Please feel free to contact me with any views you have on this.

Best,

Ash

Ashley Charlwood

Head of Operations and Strategic Projects
Maybe someone who is also a member of SOTP could re-post it there - I'm sure they would be interested.

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:23 pm

Would be interesting to see the people involved with this (I can probably guess most of them already). and also what legal framework they think they are working under.
Certain Canoeing and fishing interests seem to be causing more trouble than helping smooth problems out.... maybe too much money involved for them as was the comment last time (from someone in the chamber of commerce).....

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:47 am

If there is a public right of navigation (and that can only be challenged by engaging with and dispensing with the evidence that there is) then no-one can make a valid agreement to restrict it. The best that can be achieved is a compelling and balanced proposal that encourages individuals to make personal choices not to exercise their right of navigation in certain circumstances. That will require a large dose of trust which seems completely absent at the moment.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Allenkayak » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:42 pm

The law is pretty clear that the river belongs to the owners of the banks
Chris, I beg to differ on that statement, the law is not clear, which is why we have access issues.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by SandfordSailor » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:32 pm

Just by the by, Allenkayak - ownership or not has nothing to do with navigation rights.

If you own a field with a public footpath across it, you can't stop me walking across your field.

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:56 pm

You may own the banks or river bottom but you cannot own the water we float over.

Check out http://www.riveraccessforall.co.uk/ for more info.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by 66quinny66 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:10 pm

Sorry for dragging his up when it has all gone a bit quiet.
Have there been any further developments with respect to the agreement/non agreement?
We were stopped by Mike Dalton by Town at around 7pm on Tuesday. Things were explained to us as to how we had to be below Chain Bridge by 3 or 3.30 or something and off the river by 5 and that we were jeopardising the whole agreement. We did ask as to how we were supposed to know about any of this other then being told about it by "some bloke" in a car park and were told that there will be some "officer" or something starting in the next few weeks. Mike was also adamant that there is no public right of navigation on the Dee.
Anyone aware of any developments or is it just business as usual?

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:39 pm

Mike is probably also adamant that the earth is flat as well.

A few fishing groups and self appointed paddling people seem to have got together to get money out of the Gov or splash funding. Quite a lot if the research is correct for there own reasons. They cannot stop you paddling the Dee.

Go and enjoy yourself. Just paddle trsponsibly and if anyone threatens you report it to the Police straight away....

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by SimonMW » Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:49 pm

An office eh? Sounds like Mr Dalton needs the pressure of having to explain himself to a group of us. What do you think the odds are if being able to arrange a local meeting and get this guy to explain his actions and why he thinks he has any legal rights to enact them?

This is utterly unbelievable and if it goes unchallenged we'll have a wye & Usk situation.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by R3V » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:07 pm

Jeopardising the whole agreement?

Well to my mind as the agreement seems to really have been written with the interests of a few commercial operators of others (BOPA) at its heart and not the majority of paddlers in North wales if the "agreement " is jeoppardised and hence not "honoured" by the vested angling interests the only people who "suffer" are the commercial and other parties" whom didn't involve the WCU or general paddlers in the disucssions int the first place.

A demonstration , once again, that you can't pretend to negotiate for people whom you dont represent in any form.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by 66quinny66 » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:46 pm

quicky wrote:Go and enjoy yourself. Just paddle trsponsibly and if anyone threatens you report it to the Police straight away....
Oh we will.
Interestingly on both Tuesday and again yesterday there were quite a few people just having a swim or out with kids in dinghies on lines. I wonder if Mike tried explaining the agreement to the other tourists?
We also got stopped by a woman undertaking market research for Visit Wales and I think we managed to fill the "any other comments" section of her questionnaire quite well.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:29 pm

Might be worth email CW and CE as well....

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morsey
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by morsey » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:16 pm

66quinny66 wrote:I think we managed to fill the "any other comments" section of her questionnaire quite well.
:-)

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:27 pm

From SOTP

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... !!!!/page2
The Llangollen Maelor Angling and the British Outdoor Professionals Association have failed to respond to the legal notice within the 28 day period so we may presume that there is no legislation nor exercise of statutory powers which may have extinguished the public right of navigation, so it exists as a matter of fact. Anyone challenged should simply state this fact and carry on about their lawful business.
The agreement is a contract between the consenting parties and has no force on third parties. Anyone citing the agreement should be asked to show your signature on it. If they can not it does not apply to you. End of.

Anyone who continues to harass you after that should be reported to the police as should anyone demanding money under false pretences.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by DaveBland » Wed Jul 31, 2013 11:29 pm

quicky wrote:From SOTP
The agreement is a contract between the consenting parties and has no force on third parties. Anyone citing the agreement should be asked to show your signature on it. If they can not it does not apply to you. End of.
The single most sensible thing ever written about the whole access 'debate'.
dave

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morsey
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by morsey » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:40 am

DaveBland wrote:The single most sensible thing ever written about the whole access 'debate'.
I'd offer "Open Access" and "Smile and wave" as being in the top five.

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:20 pm

From SOTP.
part of the mill for sale as well....
I think that is only part of the mill and it's been up for sale for a while. I guess the neighbours would put some people off!
http://mileendmill.co.uk/

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