Dee Access Agreement

Inland paddling
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Big Henry
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Big Henry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:40 pm

Jones Chris wrote:I was one of the others who got the same reply.

Sent him another email basically asking him what authority he has to go against canoe Wales stated access position and negotiate an agreement for me. Also stated I won't be sticking to it.

Chris
Just got back from holiday yesterday to find I had one too. I haven't had the time to compose a suitable response yet, but it will be sent. Incidentally (like others) the reply I received was sent to several others, and I now have (and they have mine) the email addresses of a Nick Newman, Andrew Battye and Daniel Butler. I'm sure I never said they could release my email address to other people!

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Strad
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Strad » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:55 pm

Mark RW wrote:What everyone has failed to mention so far is, how are youngsters and other beginners supposed to start whitewater paddling safely. It seems like the only access allowed when levels are safe (definitely below level 9) is to go in the winter, is this the safest time of the year to learn. I take my daughter to Llangollen CC, and now this is being taken away as well, if you do not have youngsters coming through, then you can say goodbye to a healthy future for the sport, especially if this sets a precedent.
Mark, they have no right to remove access, nor were BOPA in a position to represent all paddlers and that is why this thread is so many pages long. You do have the right to paddle, but what BOPA has done is increase the likely hood of aggressive behaviour towards you outside the agreed times. Ignore the 'agreement' and if anyone gets aggressive call the cops.
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
Graham Stradling

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JohnO
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by JohnO » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:57 pm

The WCA has released a Statement

http://www.canoewales.com/news.aspx?ArticleID=177

I have had a reply from Ken Skates, but it looked a little like a generic response I have replied so wont post it yet.
blurpup wrote:this would also be an interesting twist to see what the reaction of the fishing community is, whether it's really about trying to get something in statute to give them ownership - or if it is really about sharing the usage.
Of course it is about ownership, once they have an agreement and you step out of line they will have you and will have a document to back them up.

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:34 pm

Had a reply as well and will be writing back, but in the mean time..... and like most politician he has not answered my question.....
Dear Andrew,
Many thanks for your email. I am anxious to see that the agreement is part of a constructive process that will enable canoeists more access to the river.
There are more issues that need to be addressed, but the agreement is nonetheless a breakthrough that we can build on. I am keen to ensure the steering group reflects the entire community that uses the river, so I have asked commercial operators to join the group and influence the development of this agreement.
I am sorry if my comments gave the impression that I was only interested in angling. The river should be used for a variety of purposes, some of which draw in many tourists and I am keen to ensure access is open as freely as possible.
You may be interested to know that I have previously lobbied the Welsh Government for open access to rivers for canoeists and I can forward my correspondence if you like. I argued that open access has health and economic benefits.

I hope this clarifies my position and again, my sincere apologies if my comments caused offence or upset.
Best wishes,
Ken

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:53 pm

Mark RW wrote:snip.....I take my daughter to Llangollen CC, and now this is being taken away as well,
No-one has taken away your right to paddle this river. It appears BOPA have merely surrendered their own right with some restrictions.

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JohnO
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by JohnO » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:06 pm

quicky wrote:Had a reply as well and will be writing back, but in the mean time..... and like most politician he has not answered my question.....
That's because he (or more likely his PA) sent you the exact same reply as I got, although our emails I expect were entirely different, do theses Muppets forget that people share info on the internet.

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Jonny Kennedy
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Jonny Kennedy » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:52 pm

After an email to the said website http://www.thepaddler.co.uk/newswelshdeeaccessh.html which had this agreement up as a done deal, I argued our case (as Im sure many others of you have) and a speedy reply that came back to me saying

"The Dee access press release has been removed from the website"

Jonny

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Voodoo
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Voodoo » Fri Sep 07, 2012 5:55 pm

Ok and Breath...... the rage I have in the pit of my stomach at the min is bad almost enough to make me want to be sick,

I have just come of the phone after being on it an hour to Chris Charters, and the long and the short is that guy needs to go into politics because when it comes to not answering the Fecking question he's good, I mean he's really good,

After an hour of asking the simple question of " At what point where you given the remit to negoate for paddlers on access " and with him never answering it

In short according to him its all our fault for not turning up to the meeting 18 months ago in which this was all decided, although both as a local ish paddler and local canoe club committee member I don't remember getting my invite to the meeting

However it seems according to him that even though this has gone to press and all, that nothing is set in stone, ( I always though that a press release was pretty much finished) and that if we like we can come to the meeting at the end of the month and air our grievances and have amendments made ?

Yea right I mean as I asked him how do you think it will go when I say "I want to paddle on the evening", he seems to think that we can negotiate 1 evening a week but what about other clubs ? and why should I have too

I said it at the start and I say it again Its a Non agreement that will never work however
I think going to a meeting and letting those there know that it will not work might make me feel better

Re chris: he seems oblivious to the shit storm he has created what the feck business was it off his to get involved in this, he really thinks he's doing gods work or something in the sense that everyone will be happy on the water and we can all live peacefully, the thing is that it was peaceful and I was happy to share its not me has the problem with sharing it those that want to have agreements in place that seem to have the problem

so yes there is a meeting up coming I just need to find out when and where I shall update if others feel strong enough to come along and re negoate
This is not the repose you are looking for ~ Obi-Wan Kenobi

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by chriscw » Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:04 pm

I wrote to the Paddler about the press release on their site and got this reply

"
Hi Chris

The Dee access press release has been removed from the site.

Best wishes

Peter
"

However on just checking I notice it appears to be still there.
Chris Clarke-Williams
Location Basingstoke

Paddling Interests:
Touring, Coaching Beginners (I am an L2K), Surf White water trips, Weir Play (I'm not good enough to put freestyle!)

edhunter
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by edhunter » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:01 pm

Is it just me who thinks that BOPA negotiating restricted access to a river is a bit like the driving instructors union negotiating access to a public road with bird watchers who like a hedgerow along the A6?

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:29 pm

Maybe as has been suggested elsewhere they are doing it to claim Splash money. somethng like £43,000 was given to certain groups on the Wye to make an access agreement...... I wonder who they were.........

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddling coach » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:31 pm

The Dee is going to be the place where access issue come to a head.

Local companies are being threatened with legal action if they do not follow the permissions that they had nothing to do with.

Local instructors are being threatened also with solicitors letters threatening legal action if they are seen breaking the none negotiated access permissions

Mike Doulton thinks he has created an amazing thing. What he has done is set access back by at least 10 years.

If anyone thinks this doesnt effect them as paddlers they are wrong. As soon as the commercial operators start to avoid the sections of contested river the recreational paddler will be targeted.

If the commercial operators ignore it, then they will be taken to court, and if that is lost, then a precedent is set.

ALL paddlers need to support this issue, we all need to do a few things.

Firstly email to Ashley Charlwood at canoe wales on ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com
This email can be anything from telling him that you support canoe wales moving forward with access issues and going up against the fishing folk. or telling him of any access issues you have had on welsh waters.

secondly tell all your friends to email him, paddlers, swimmers, friends family etc.

This is the time for paddlers to pull together and help canoe wales do what they want to, they want to sort access, and not a few days negotiated time, but a full on public right to navigate, which we have but is not recognised.

The fishing clubs are grouping together and being highly aggressive, we as paddlers need to pull together and support our NGB.

email to Ashley, now at Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com

Thanks

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddletastic2 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:43 pm

quicky wrote:Maybe as has been suggested elsewhere they are doing it to claim Splash money. somethng like £43,000 was given to certain groups on the Wye to make an access agreement...... I wonder who they were.........
Quicky do tell

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:24 pm

From SOTP
When this "agreement" was presented to the public it was marketed in such a way as to give the impression that it was an official agreement backed by the EA, and was enforceable on all users of this section of the river. The emerging facts show that it was all smoke and mirrors with no substance, it was a deliberate attempt to frighten people into not using the river, paid for with public money intended to make access to the river easier. There are a lot of questions that need answering about this farce.
Your mostly right of course. Most of use knew there was never any agreement just an arrangement cobbled up by WUF to try and deliver what June |Davidson, then a minister and the WAG government wanted to see. I was done by WUF, well its director actually, to great fanfare at the time and may well have gone some way towards his 'gong'. The fact that CCW and EA were party to it and that something like £50.000 from the Splash fund went into the project on the Wye and the Usk, as you say funded by public money, is particularly shameful. Its an agreement that only one person wanted and who persuaded a few owners to go along with it. It serves no purpose to either party and I for one would like to know just how that amount of money was spent. He tried to do the same on the lower Usk but by then people were aware of the secretive and underhand tactics employed. Some of the cash was directed at that lower Usk agreement but when it fell through it was not repaid but 'spent on the Wye', but where and on what!!
Perhaps David H would like to ask that question of the esteemed WUF Director. My bet is he will get no more help than was given by Mr Broomfield.
david H
The sum of £53,000 was spent. I don't know the breakdown but the document is included on one of my posts on this thread.
.

John Saunders
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by John Saunders » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:08 pm

From Canoe Wales:
Access Statement

Canoe Wales have been made aware of a “permission” granted by some of the angling clubs on the River Dee around the Llangollen area. Not all of these clubs are Welsh based.

We have also been informed that this arrangement has been brokered by a group that is not mandated to represent paddlesport. It would appear that consultation with paddlesport participants on this matter has been limited. A number of individuals have written to those who have brokered the arrangement to point this issue out.

We are genuinely concerned that this permission does not reflect the current usage of the river, nor the needs of paddlers and hence will cause all additional problems.

For Clarity: Canoe Wales (nor the BCU) has not been involved in this arrangement, nor given the opportunity to comment or input by those who have drawn up this arrangement.

We are aware that the permission is being granted at a time when there are a large numbers of legal letters being issued by the same angling clubs. It is a widely held opinion in paddlesport that the lack of representative involvement, consultation and threats of action are indicative that these sorts of proposals are unworkable.

We have received much correspondence from members and partners stating that the arrangement is unworkable as it does not reflect the needs of paddlesport. The Dee is one of the most paddled pieces of white water in England and Wales and is important for the development of Paddlesport in the voluntary and professional sector.

The arrangement that has been publicised seeks to restrict existing usage patterns. Estimates of the economic impact of the arrangement run into millions of pounds lost to the local economy. At this time, particularly, this level of loss is very unwelcome.

The Dee has a long history of Navigation. It is our understanding that the law in England and Wales requires the Government to extinguish Navigation rights. We are informed that the wording of the above “permission” states there is no right of Navigation on the Dee above the tidal limit. Crucially, other than the wording that appeared in a recent press release the arrangement brokers have not made it clear on what grounds they have the ability to limit Navigation on the Dee.

Canoe Wales cannot grant or restrict Navigation. We are here to represent the interest of paddlesport and advocate these as appropriate. The decision to go afloat lies with the individual. If you are confronted or restricted when paddling then Canoe Wales is keen to learn of the circumstances and reasons behind this.

We have been made aware of statements made by a solicitors firm representing the angling clubs that not following this arrangement is contrary to the desires of Welsh Government. Canoe Wales believe only the Welsh Government can make this statement.

Our understanding of Welsh Governments position is that where Navigation Rights do not exist, Welsh Government would like to see workable solutions offered by Riparian owners for the Public to enjoy their chosen recreation. The same must be acceptable and workable for the public.

At this stage we do not believe that the Welsh Government has been involved in this process and hope to clarify their position with a meeting shortly. Canoe Wales remain prepared to talk about requirements for paddling to any parties with an interest in offering opportunities for Paddlesport.

RedFrame
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by RedFrame » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:23 am

The "BOPA" PO Box location of Llandrindod Wells smelt a little funny to me and the claim that the Dee is tidal to Chester (No local knowledge)... so I invited Huw and Chris to meet me on the Dee in Llangollen while I was working over the past week... No Response...

I've since searched on the web for "'Huw' + 'Wye and Usk Foundation''" and "'Chris Charters' + 'Wye and Usk Foundation'"... Why, because Llandrindod Wells is VERY CLOSE to the Wye... Guess what....? Their names turn up regularly..

Paddlers..? I think not...

Cheers
Red.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddling coach » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:15 am

Hi all.

Canoe Wales have gone public on the fact that they feel the welsh Dee has a public right of navigation.

Ash has had less than 50 emails from paddlers complaining about lack of access or access issues.

If we want our national governing body to go forward and sort this we need to show our support.

Email Ash. DO IT. Don't just moan about fishermen to your mates.

If the fish folk win here on the dee against commercial companies then all contested rivers will follow suit and recreational paddling will be severely effected.

If ur a paddler email, get your none pading friends to email, don't send one mail from a club. All members in the club email.

Canoe Wales are willing to help. Let's show them some support. We can't risk losing this one!!'

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Bod » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:41 am

Thanks Paddling Coach. Messages to Ash sent this morning.
John B.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by dougdew99 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:05 am

Can you post Ash's email address?

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddling coach » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:08 am


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Uisce
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Uisce » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:27 am

paddling coach wrote:Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com
Done. Please do likewise people ASAP. It only takes a second. This will allow Ash and Canoe Wales to take this matter further.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Keith Day » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:16 pm

Voodoo wrote:After an hour of asking the simple question of " At what point where you given the remit to negoate for paddlers on access " and with him never answering it. ''...............so yes there is a meeting up coming I just need to find out when and where I shall update if others feel strong enough to come along and re negoate
How will you answer the question
At what point were YOU given the remit to negoate for paddlers on access"?

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddling coach » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:13 pm

I'd say he has given himself the right to negotiate for himself. Hense why he's going along.

As I've said. We need to work together and not infight.

Email Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com and let him have your support.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by markg » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:32 pm

Uisce wrote:
paddling coach wrote:Ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com
Done. Please do likewise people ASAP. It only takes a second. This will allow Ash and Canoe Wales to take this matter further.
Done.

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Silas
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Silas » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:26 pm

Hi Ashley,

I would like to express my concerns over one recreational group feeling they have the authority to grant or deny other recreational groups the right to enjoy a natural river, which quite clearly no one can have the assumption of owning.

I will not be abiding by this so called agreement between two parties that had no authority in creating. This so called agreement will obviously be detrimental to the local economy on a massive scale and will reach far beyond those who currently enjoy paddling on the Dee whenever the circumstances are propitious. I would like to support anyone in their efforts in making a mockery of this whole business.

An agreement by definition is an arrangement that both parties have harmony of opinion and acceptance. I have not agreed to anything, thus am not affected by it.

Yours sincerely
Craig Anscombe

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by tigerboy » Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:42 pm

Voodoo said of Chris Charters
" At what point where you given the remit to negotiate for paddlers on access " and with him never answering it
Has anybody asked the same of Mike Dalton and got a straight answer? Lets not forget he is the half of the "negotiating" team on the Dee for the non "agreement."

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Uisce
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Uisce » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:13 pm

tigerboy wrote:
Has anybody asked the same of Mike Dalton and got a straight answer? Lets not forget he is the half of the "negotiating" team on the Dee for the non "agreement."

I really wouldn't bother. Mike's mind lives in a different reality to most folk! Did you know he invented the crank shaft. In fact I think he actually may have invented kayaking! :)

paddling coach
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by paddling coach » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:44 pm

To be honest, avoiding Mike Dalton is the best thing that anyone can do.

He seems to think he is the savior of the river.

HA, rubbish. all he has caused is a whole amount of nightmare.

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:47 pm

Quote Originally Posted by RayGoodwin View Post
It's all kicking off on the Dee. Five of my friends/colleagues that run trips on the river have received solicitors letters threatening an injunction and I don't think it a bluff this time (I received my first threat of this nature twenty years ago). Canoe Wales are determined to fight this one if it goes to court but we need all the support we can get.

The following is being circulated on Facebook:

>The access situation on the River Dee is reaching critical proportions. Angling clubs are threatening legal action and injunction and we need your help. There is a public right of navigation on the River Dee and If you dont want to give up that right please email ashley.charlwood@canoewales.com to say so. We have a right to canoe peaceably along an established right of way and want to defend that right in court if that is what it comes to. He is waiting for your mail.
If you have any dated and timed evidence of the unsavoury words or deeds of fishermen towards paddlers past or future, please send details to Ash too. Many thanks and please repost this if you have friends who could be affected. At the end of the day this affects all river users on all rivers in England and Wales.<

This effects all of us that paddle wild rivers in England and Wales (you lucky Scots). Please email Ash with your support and in particular include just how wonderful a river it is.

Ray

To stop them canoeing. Professional users are the easiest target because they are identifiable.

The farmer,Mr I T Davies, has also received a similar style letter because he has allowed paddlers to park and launch from his land. His water only extends less than a kilometre from the launch spot.

So it is very much about being on the river not the launch or egress.

Ray

http://www.RayGoodwin.com

Mr Charles seems to run a pub. won't be drinking there.
[img]http://www.the-bopa.co.uk/Chris.gif[/img]

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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:36 pm

Their tours seem a little bit dear as well
2 days White Water Instructional Workshop for Open Canoe and Kayak.

Arrive Friday evening, depart Sunday afternoon.

Workshops can include a two-star improvement course for both open canoe and kayak. This covers basic moving water skills and other important topics. Please contact us for more details.

Inclusive:
£195.00
Or, if you prefer to camp:
£165.00

If you are experienced and want to do your own thing-
2 days full board - breakfast, packed lunch, 3-course evening meal and bunkhouse accommodation.

Arrive Friday evening, depart Sunday afternoon.

Inclusive:
£85.00
Or, if you prefer to camp:
£60.00

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