Dee Access Agreement

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tigerboy
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Dee Access Agreement

Post by tigerboy »

Anybody seen the New Dee access agreement?
Who do they think they are telling me what time I can paddle?
Which canoeist consulted with them anyway, they did not have my permission to negotiate on my behalf. I will continue to paddle where and when I want to, end of!
Nice try by Llangollen anglers, a bit late now I think after all the years of lost paddling on the Dee.
They really are on the run, let keep it that way.

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Voodoo
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Voodoo »

I havent seen this yet
what are they saying or is it online somewhere?

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Mike Mayberry
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Mike Mayberry »

Just seen this on Wales Today. They are calling it a year round local arrangement for the Llangollen area, with 6 months unrestricted winter access in the winter and 10am - 3pm in the summer, agreed by local clubs. Michael Dalton, the MD at Nomad Canoes, said "It's an increase in access and an agreement that is workable for the first time that is year round, it could set a precedence for other rivers across the country".

They BBC contacted Canoe Wales who so far haven't commented.

There is nothing on the BBC website yet.

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David Fairweather
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by David Fairweather »

Mike Mayberry wrote:Michael Dalton, the MD at Nomad Canoes, said "It's an increase in access and an agreement that is workable for the first time that is year round, it could set a precedence for other rivers across the country".
There has been year round access to the Dee for years, it's been great and no hassle at all.

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07garnettn
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by 07garnettn »

I have never had any trouble on the dee! What needs to change now? As far as im aware we already had year round access. What was the previous agreement and where can I find the current one?

66quinny66
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by 66quinny66 »

What constitutes summer and has nature been informed of this? When considering bird nesting seasons we were always told that birds don't have a calendar.
Mike Dalton was wittering on about this to Chris Eastabrook at the weekend when we were up there. I think I'll just go and spend my money elsewhere over the summer and hope that the fishermen spend as much money as we do locally to make up the difference (I will miss the sausage rolls from Baileys though :( )

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Voodoo
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Voodoo »

David Fairweather wrote:
Mike Mayberry wrote:Michael Dalton, the MD at Nomad Canoes, said "It's an increase in access and an agreement that is workable for the first time that is year round, it could set a precedence for other rivers across the country".
There has been year round access to the Dee for years, it's been great and no hassle at all.
I 2nd that I dont see why an agrement has been made with non paddlers, and has LLan Club OK this allthough they may not realy of had a choice but what other club have been involed?

Mikes D only interest has always been about keeping some type off agreement so that he/the lease holders can charge for the use of the river since if they don't as he see it as his Business/property losing value in that a revenue is lost so when he come to reselling it he can ask for more due to the extra revenue stream that's there

I am fed up listening to him about " if we can only get agreement with the fishermen we can have an open river" as I remind him each time we have an open river and neather him nor fisher men will change that fact for me,

as a rule I haven't ever had any problem with fishermen on that stretch and only have had issue at the MEM site its self,

these days I just paddle and ignore whoever or whatever try's to say or tell me different
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quicky
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by quicky »

Can you give an details of this 'agreement' please. Who is the organisations supposidly signed up to it. etc etc.

Dave Manby
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Dave Manby »

So you "rebels" paddle the river any time you want. Fine, but if you want to organise an event for paddlers on the river, unless you have some sort of "agreement" you are stuffed. (It is fairly easy to put an injunction on the event or merely disrupt it).

All summer I have seen very few paddlers on the river even at weekends which sort of begs the question "why all the fuss".

storm
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by storm »

I think 9am till 8.30pm could work.....

dougdew99
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by dougdew99 »

Dave Manby wrote:So you "rebels" paddle the river any time you want. Fine, but if you want to organise an event for paddlers on the river, unless you have some sort of "agreement" you are stuffed. (It is fairly easy to put an injunction on the event or merely disrupt it).

All summer I have seen very few paddlers on the river even at weekends which sort of begs the question "why all the fuss".
Is there a record of any such injunction ever being granted?

edhunter
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by edhunter »

If we were to agree not to be on the river outside of the designated hours over the summer (fishing season?) then do the anglers agree not to be on the river when we are so we have hassle free paddling so they have hassle free angling? I will ignore this and paddle the dee as and when I want as that is my rite to do so.

icklepaddler
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by icklepaddler »

I paddled it once this summer from carrog down. A lovely trip with a reasonable amount of water.

Met no other paddlers, so you could not say that lots of paddlers to disturb the two fishermen we met.

Politely asked first fisherman where / when he wanted us to pass. On ruddy bank the reply, followed by not allowed here.

Same question to second fisherman who could not have been more different. Friendly and engaging, and will not have been upset by our passing - unlike the first.

Its a big enough river to share, easily. No need for agreements, the time passed when this would have been agreeable about ten years ago.

Keith Day
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Keith Day »

Dave Manby wrote:It is fairly easy to put an injunction on the event
Then why has it not been done already?
All summer I have seen very few paddlers on the river even at weekends which sort of begs the question "why all the fuss".
Who is it making the fuss?

tigerboy
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by tigerboy »

Mike Dalton,

that man can talk for England and all rubbish from what I have heard from him. What makes him think we need a agreement with the fishermen and why is he so involved in the negotiations, self interest I suspect is his only motivation in this matter! Funny that I have never seen him in a boat.

Why have the fishermen agreed to anything after all these years of hassling us? Its not their river to give, so we do not need their permission to use it. Could it be their game of threatening and trying to restrict access is finally up? I do not agree with bowing to their permissions as it can all be taken away again just like before.

See you all on the river any time you like.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Dave Manby »

Keith Day wrote:
Dave Manby wrote:It is fairly easy to put an injunction on the event
Then why has it not been done already?

Because the events up to now have had permission.

Is it really such a problem to share the river and have an agreement? What we need is an equitable agreement rather than the one sided one that existed before. I don't see much chatter about the "anglers" in France restricting the paddling around Briancon.

dougdew99
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by dougdew99 »

We don't need any agreement. This is not our problem. We are happy to share the river and be environmentally responsible. This is a problem for anglers who don't want to share and have the mistaken idea they have the right to control who paddles on the river. They have no such right.

eview
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by eview »

From what I can tell of the new agreement, it's not about "anglers versus kayakers", it's about the wider community, everyone knowing where they stand and more people being able to use the river to it's full extent, making the most of what is available around Llangollen. A few people have said that they don't see many people paddling the Dee, why is that? Possibly because of old misconceptions that you will get hassle for doing so? Although this isn't really the case anymore, I've personally never had hassle from anyone while on the Dee in 5 or so years of paddling, could it be that there is only a small set of the paddling community currently using the river? To me it seems that this agreement will open the idea of kayaking on the Dee to the wider community, potential paddlers and enthusiasts alike. It will open up the river for commercial rafting and kayaking (no licences required) all year round, more competitions and events which can only be good for paddlesports in general. As a recreational paddler I can see why this agreement might seem like a waste of time, but thinking about what else could be possible there, for those commercially involved on the river, it's a green light for expansion, development and growth of the local industry.

I have always been of the opinion that access should be free for all, and can totally understand why people will paddle outside the 'agreed' access times, fair enough, have fun out there, but it's also fairly arrogant to think that the multimillion pounds that angling generates for the local area can just be ignored, that seems to me to be the wrong attitude as then neither side will ever 'win' if it's a case of win or lose. There will always be some beef between a some anglers and kayakers, and I don't know if any restrictions have been placed on the 'other side' with this new agreement, but if people would think about the wider implications, then maybe this could be a good thing for the area and paddlesport in general.

As far as I can remember the summer period is up until 21st October (can't remember what the start date was), part of the river has a dates agreement and part has a levels agreement, and I imagine there will be agreed egress points and Glydyfrdwy and lower down near the viaduct, I can't find more info anywhere but I'm sure it will be available sometime soon.
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Dave Manby
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Dave Manby »

eview wrote:F

I have always been of the opinion that access should be free for all, and can totally understand why people will paddle outside the 'agreed' access times, fair enough, have fun out there, but it's also fairly arrogant to think that the multimillion pounds that angling generates for the local area can just be ignored, that seems to me to be the wrong attitude as then neither side will ever 'win' if it's a case of win or lose.
This is wrong. When I was running the Mike Jones Rallies on the Dee the one big comment from the shops, B&Bs Hotels etc in Llangollen was that the paddlers spent money in Llangollen the fishermen arrived in town from wherever with their sandwiches and thermos flasks packed in their cars along with their bait and tackle. Anyone seen a fishing shop in Llangollen?

enjoyer
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by enjoyer »

Dave Manby wrote:
eview wrote:F

...but it's also fairly arrogant to think that the multimillion pounds that angling generates for the local area can just be ignored, that seems to me to be the wrong attitude as then neither side will ever 'win' if it's a case of win or lose.
This is wrong. When I was running the Mike Jones Rallies on the Dee the one big comment from the shops, B&Bs Hotels etc in Llangollen was that the paddlers spent money in Llangollen the fishermen arrived in town from wherever with their sandwiches and thermos flasks packed in their cars along with their bait and tackle. Anyone seen a fishing shop in Llangollen?
Not so sure it is as black and white as you portray. This website http://www.llangollen.com/ on the town mentions the tackle shop at 12 Chapel Street (not saying I can confirm its existence, merely taking advantage of the internet) yet sadly fails to highlight the significance of kayaking as a local activity.

More importantly, can someone give us a pointer to the actual"agreement" being discussed please?

eview
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by eview »

Dave, fair enough, they could do more by buying local which I hope most paddlers do, but by that I mean the rod licences, permits etc, although that may not go directly to local businesses on the high street, it's undeniably a huge income to the area so surely has influence.
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John Saunders
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by John Saunders »

eview wrote:[...] by that I mean the rod licences, permits etc, although that may not go directly to local businesses on the high street, it's undeniably a huge income to the area so surely has influence.
Think you'll find that rod licence fees go into the EA coffers to subsidise money spent on fisheries support, and the cost of permits will go to the riparian owners, so not necessarily benefitting the high street directly.

edhunter
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by edhunter »

John Saunders wrote:
eview wrote:[...] by that I mean the rod licences, permits etc, although that may not go directly to local businesses on the high street, it's undeniably a huge income to the area so surely has influence.
Think you'll find that rod licence fees go into the EA coffers to subsidise money spent on fisheries support, and the cost of permits will go to the riparian owners, so not necessarily benefitting the high street directly.
I emailed the E.A. a couple of years ago to ask about rod licences and where the money went. The money spent on fisheries isnt covered by rod licences. It is massively subsidized by the tax payer.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Dave Manby »

In the old days of access agreements with Llangollen anglers for the events that happened on the Dee: 3 slaloms, 3 down river races, one training weekend, 2 tours, there was a "donation" from the paddlers towards restocking the river.

I may be wrong but I think the fishing tackle shop you mention on Chapel street was the old newsagent and tackle shop run by the old secretary of the Llangollen anglers long gone. There might be one in the small section off chapel street but I haven't checked.

The financial argument is one we paddlers can win: I stood up at one of the December Jones Rallies and said "Buy your Christmas presents in Llangollen and mention that you are a paddler when you do, don't drive 50 miles down the road for petrol that is a penny cheaper buy it in Llan" and if we keep this policy going it will do no harm! Sign the petitions against the Supermarket planning application. It all helps our case.

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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by dougdew99 »

There is no argument. We have a right to navigate on the Dee, like every other river in England and Wales, unless there is river specific legislation rescinding the ancient right of navigation which was established in the Magna Carta. Why do we bother to talk about "access/restriction" agreements? We do not need them. This is NOT our problem. This is purely a problem for a small number of anglers who do not want to share.

Pete K
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Pete K »

A few years ago now but it just shows the entrenched view held by some anglers in the area:
http://www.assemblywales.org/157._a_letter2.pdf
I came across this when I googled 'Dee access agreement' 10 minutes ago. I shall however continue to drive over from England, visit the Dee/Tryweryn/etc... , eat at the local cafe or get a bisun burger, fill my van up with fuel for the drive home after staying in a local campsite and then head home with a present for the wife. May see some of you on the Dee this bank holiday weekend.

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Pam Bell
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Pam Bell »

Mike Mayberry wrote:unrestricted winter access in the winter and 10am - 3pm in the summer... it could set a precedence for other rivers across the country"
.

So if you're local and want to paddle in the evening after work/school/college, you can only do so in the winter when it's dark?

Chris Bolton
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Chris Bolton »

In principle, if you have a group of people with the right to do (A), and another group of with the right to do (B), but (A) and (B) might not fit well together, these groups could reach an agreement along the lines of "We won't exercise our right to do (A) at these times, if you don't exercise your right to do (B) at these other times."

But that's not going to work here...

- I would be surprised if the anglers are saying they won't fish during the paddling times - so there will still be conflict
- The suggested times are not suitable, certainly not for the whole river (as Pam points out)
- A water level criterion would be needed in summer (eg, paddle anytime above a certain level)
- An agreement would need to be accepted by all the people with the rights - which is impossible

I'm intrigued to know who the parties to the alleged agreement are !

Chris

PS - It's real a contrast to the way things were 20 years ago (6 weekends a year?). But then Llangollen Anglers decided to cancel the "Agreement" that existed at that time, and paddlers said "if there's no agreement, we'll paddle when we like" - and nobody stopped them. That was the start of a different approach, followed up by a positive attitude from WCA and supported by Douglas Caffyn's work.

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Uisce
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Re: Dee Access Agreement

Post by Uisce »

Chris Bolton wrote: - A water level criterion would be needed in summer (eg, paddle anytime above a certain level)
.
Not even sure why this should apply on the Dee given its flow regulation to ensure minimum flows are maintained throughout the summer. It's never too low to float down.

Interestingly if those times quoted are true they conflict with all the evening club sessions (including Llangollen CC) which are held on the Dee throughout the summer months? Like Chris I'm fascinated to know more about this. What (precisely) has been agreed, and who had agreed it.

Meaningless to me. The only possible justification I could just about stretch to would be for large formal events (races, tours etc) and commercial enterprises eg rafting from Serpents to Town.

tigerboy
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Re: Dee "Access Agreement".

Post by tigerboy »

I understand from the grapevine of paddlers and locals in and around Llangollen that in the last few weeks at least 4 commercial operators have received solicitors letters from Llangollen Anglers warning them off the river and threatening injunctions in they continue to use the river for commercial purposes. It seems that the proposed "access agreement" will not include any commercial use or events.

It just goes to show that this is not being done to enhance the economy of the area at all and begs the question of what is really going on here especially when you consider who is involved in these negotiations and what their motives really are?

Does anybody know more about this?

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