Rainchasers

Inland paddling
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immunogirl
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by immunogirl » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:58 pm

It's not academia when you require kids in high school or middle school cite their references. I'm assuming if a 12 year old can do it, it's not rocket science.

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Jim Pullen
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by Jim Pullen » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:19 pm

immunogirl wrote:It's not academia when you require kids in high school or middle school cite their references. I'm assuming if a 12 year old can do it, it's not rocket science.
Three of us have PHDs in science or engineering, I've published in a number of high impact acedemic journals, I think I'm capable of correct referencing, but still maintain this is different as put ins, grades and distance aren't novel concepts. Is sharing info about a particular route up Snowdon you've heard about or bit of single track MTB trail not ok if you haven't requested permission off the person who did it first?
Done any NE/NW rivers not on the site? PM me!

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morsey
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by morsey » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:32 am

Reading other guide books and summarising them is copying. Taking more than one or two guides and copying without permission is a bit rude. Taking a whole raft of guides without permission brings you to a perfectly reasonable objection. It makes no odds if you copy photos, video, music, words and edit them, they are still someone elses creation. The internet does afford an easy way to get information but there are many cases (even in canoeing world) to show that the guidelines still apply.

I would not consider the collective guides in UKRGB to be open source, no more so than printed guides. The get on/get off and general grades are public domain information, but guides to the river are very much original creation, because they give more detailed info than can be found from maps and photos, and as such copying or summarising should be done with reference and or permission.

I think people are shocked at having this discussion in public, because it involves friends I guess! But it is very obvious that all involved are perfectly capable of discussing the matter.
Personally I would have asked and referenced in the first instance. If the intention is to create a UK wide resource for river levels with river guides, then I would suggest those guides need to be original creations, not just reworks. Currently it does not appear as all the guides are original creation, and if you were to take away the levels it would look very much as though you are presenting a reworked guide book site! A competitive site is one thing, a site that takes much info from the original is not cricket.

Any how that is just my opinion, and although I think I'm pretty clear with what I consider to be acceptable use of info, there are many factors that leave me thinking both sides are not trying to get one over on each other and that there is equal sympathy of thought extended to both sides of consideration. I'm sure.all involved will continue to discuss their points, in whichever media they chose, and come to a working result on this matter. I'd hope people don't fall out over it because there are two very good resources in rainchasers and UKRGB, that should be able to operate with harmony. :-)

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JohnO
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by JohnO » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:00 pm

I would just like to thank Mark for pointing me in the direction this brilliant website, I was extremely impressed by the clean lay out, grading maps and water level data. It has certainly taken my no.1 spot in my kayaking bookmarks. I do think a comments area would be a good addition - good work Rob - keep it up.

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blackgold
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by blackgold » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:10 pm

I really do enjoy this web site and the ethos, I have found this thread on Rainchasers very interesting in how a small close knit community treat each other. I have visited Rainchaser and on first impressions its well designed. We will all be the losers if a peaceful resolution is not found. Sharing and stealing are closely connected, sharing food so there’s no starvation, stealing food to stay alive, stealing food and causing starvation. Historically I view this web site as a sharing food concept, through time I will form an opinion of Rainchasers, till then as an optimise I will put Rainchasers in the same slot. This is my opinion.

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Kayak-Bloke
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by Kayak-Bloke » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:21 pm

I've seen my own words on rainchasers. I wrote the guides hoping they would be useful for others. Could they have asked me before using them? Yes, I suppose that would have been courtesy. However, if it means more people read them and get use out of them, happy days. Their work is done...

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Jim Pullen
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by Jim Pullen » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:54 pm

For what it's worth, I've been through the summaries I've added to the North East and North West sections of Rainchasers. Out of the ~100 odd river sections on there I found five that I'd added short summaries to, but hadn't paddled and couldn't have derived the information solely from looking at a map. I've now used the Facebook comment section (which anyone with a FB account can use on any page of rainchasers) to add information about which books contain full guides and in the two cases where UKRGB guides are available, links to them as well.

I can't comment on the rest of the summaries in other regions, as these are mostly Rob's additions and his to edit as he sees fit.
Done any NE/NW rivers not on the site? PM me!

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ion
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by ion » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:42 pm

Very topical I thought:




Take away from it what you will, I learned way more than I expected.

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blackgold
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by blackgold » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:05 pm

ion wrote:Very topical I thought:




Take away from it what you will, I learned way more than I expected.
cool
how about this http://www.ted.com/talks/frans_de_waal_ ... orals.html

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morsey
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by morsey » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:49 am

This aint no new issue, Old school (they thought they were new school at the time!) covered the issue with a whole bag of cheese!

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robt
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by robt » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:39 pm

There are a few learning points for me personally throughout this debate so I just wanted to let you know the actions that fall out of this for me/rainchasers. I've explained my stance, and there's a mix of (dis-)agreement which is only to be expected but some clear consenuses.
  • I'll add some way to reference out from river pages, so I can attribute other sources etc. Exactly what this will look like/etc I'm not sure, but there is a clear need for more transparency about where info comes from.
  • I will continue to potter around adding rivers that I haven't paddled, but I will be more careful about the information that I use. In particular I'll probably just leave the description blank or extremely short until I can get some entirely original info.
  • I'll not be taking any pages down in the short-term, but I will go through what I currently have and try to think back where info came from and action as appropriate.
Obviously, I do other things than just geek about, so timescales are uncertain, but it will all happen. I have an enormous amount of respect for anyone who takes the time to spread info about rivers, I know how much effort it is, and appropriate credit seems only fair. I have no intention of disrespecting such pillars of our sport who make it easier for everyone else.

And lastly, a quick personal note that I think it's harsh to take a pop at Mark for bringing this up on UKRGB forum rather than email me/rainchasers. There's no contact email on Rainchasers, no attribution about who has written the guides, so no way other than guessing who/where they came from. This is the main issue. If Mark didn't realise it was me, no biggie. Even if he did, no biggie, I did after all use info from his guides without talking to him either :-P. Happy days, it's been an interesting discussion.

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banzer
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by banzer » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:48 pm

Hooray! Time for tea and cake.
A. Boater wrote:It's all Pierre's fault
www.neviscanoes.co.uk

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Mark R
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by Mark R » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:31 pm

robt wrote:Happy days, it's been an interesting discussion.
All good by me, Rob.

Cheers,
Mark Rainsley
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Adrian Cooper
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Re: Rainchasers

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:10 pm

I was away whilst all this was going on but was pleased to see the final outcome today. I agree entirely with Mark's point of view and admire Rob for his proposal. However, along the way I was really surprised by how much rubbish was contributed by others; it seems to show a lack of clear thinking which I thought was unworthy of them.

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