Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

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Mark R
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Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Mark R »

Are BCU SW negotiating an Access 'Agreement' on the Dart????

http://www.dartaa.org.uk/DFA%20AGM%2020 ... report.pdf
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Big Henry
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Big Henry »

It looks that way from that document, but I would have thought that since so many would simply ignore it, what could they ultimately do about it?

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by callwild »

sorry, but i just have to ROFL !!!

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Chas C »

Interesting that the BCU would even consider negotiating with this being the view of the other party http://www.riverdartdevon.co.uk/canoeinglaw2.pdf, I would ignore any VAA and paddle when there is enough water for me.

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Mark Allen
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Mark Allen »

In my opion - if someone is seeking a VAA that is anything other than 365 day access to all river sections, they should stop, as you will be wasting ever ones time. The way thing are working at the moment are far from ideal, but in the summer after good rain and when the Dart is up on the slab, it is very rare we get challenged. I for one will not be restricted to dates - when theres water then great, play time..

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by John Saunders »

To save BCU SW the trouble of thinking about a new guide here are some words from 1991...

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by morsey »

Lost for words!

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by wezzzy »

Has anyone contacted the BCU to see if this is true?

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Strad »

wezzzy wrote:Has anyone contacted the BCU to see if this is true?
I asked on their fb page, no reply yet.
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Chaucer »

I think I've still got a copy of that SW Guide as well!
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by buck197 »

Does the BCU SW region have an AGM or any kind of regular meeting where we might express an opinion on VAA's? Just out of interest what is a newsman that had to be paid not to fish this year?
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by wezzzy »

I'd assume a netsman I'd a mm who fishes with a net.
Have they paid him not to use a net therefore more fish in the river to catch and return.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by EZ »

Un-believable.....

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by enjoyer »

wezzzy wrote:I'd assume a netsman I'd a mm who fishes with a net.
Have they paid him not to use a net therefore more fish in the river to catch and return.
Correct.

From DAA website:

"...
Historically licensed nets on the Dart have killed salmon in a ratio of 8:1, compared with rods. In 1990 some 18 licensed nets remained on the Dart, even though salmon stock decline was already evident. Traditionally there was always some competition and dispute between netting and rod interests. Rods failed perhaps to give full recognition to the common law rights of nets and complained bitterly about the evident disparity in exploitation rates.
...
2006 saw the first year of reduced netting effort. DAA Members of the DFA were able to negotiate that all 3 remaining netsmen would not fish at all for a 4 week period in June. They were subsequently able to negotiate commercial sponsorship of this initiative, to enable a compensatory payment to the netsmen, at no cost to the DFA.

..."

Details can be found here:

http://www.dartaa.org.uk/Conservation.htm

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by enjoyer »

... and before somebody beats me to it.

I would regretfully, and solely in the interests of good relations of course, forego my right to paddle the Dart for some of the year if the DAA wanted to pay me compensation :)

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by wezzzy »

enjoyer wrote:... and before somebody beats me to it.

I would regretfully, and solely in the interests of good relations of course, forego my right to paddle the Dart for some of the year if the DAA wanted to pay me compensation :)
Where's the "like" button.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by TonyM »

From the talk at RDCP several years ago, it was mentioned by the EA rep. (whose name I have forgotten) that the Dart had it's own subsecies of Salmon, mainly because of the very acidic nature of the water and this was why stocking with fry from other river systems was largely unsuccessful.

I'm staggered that an organisation can can lime what is know to be a very acidic river, given the implications this must have for the wider river ecosytem.

However, it's good to know that the low pH (and netting ) are recognised as significant factors for low salmon stocks.

Water abstraction and the diversion of water through private HEP schemes are also recognised as making life harder for the poor old salmon.

All of which makes me wonder exactly where canoeing fits in the scenario of diminishing fish stocks, and from that, why the BCU are wasting resources on a VAA.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Mark R »

We have no confirmation that BCU SW are indeed seeking an 'Agreement', it could be hearsay.
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by morsey »

Mark have you received confirmation that BCU/CE SW are not negotiating an agreement?

The sooner BCU/CE answer that question the better as far as I am concerned. Regardless of the protests; "we don't have to answer to none members" and "we are not answerable to those asking questions", from BCU/CE SW, they have a duty to inform all paddlers if they are negotiating an agreement that affects all paddlers. This is not a grey area, no requirement for keeping information hidden, we know the names of the people involved on both sides, we know the implications both ways, clarity and honesty is required from BCU/CE on this matter. If the South West team are negotiating then simply confirm, if they are not negotiating inform us likewise. If BCU/CE are trying to assert, as in their replies to Mark on FB, that they have a similar policy to Canoe Wales, then follow the application of Canoe Wales and answer the question without delay and without attempt to disguise any agenda.

A bit of history, When the last agreement broke down, BCU/CE SW refused to answer questions to confirm the breakdown, despite requests being asked directly to the Dart Access team for many months. They instead tried to re negotiate through the summer to try to re establish the agreement. They then tried to pass off a non BCU/CE agreement on the official BCU/CE access website, and it took several attempts of complaint before they admitted the situation and gave clarity to the lack of BCU/CE endorsement. The personnel have not changed within BCU/CE and they have shown no reason to think that BCU/CE policy is the same as Canoe Wales. Do I believe BCU/CE are negotiating an agreement for the Dart? I do not know if they are or not, but the fact that within a short period of time the DFA announce knowledge of policy that many paddlers have only just heard, suggests that the policy information was given as way to placate in order to re establish negotiations. Do I trust BCU/CE to not be negotiating an agreement for the Dart? No. Do I believe that those within BCU/CE are strongly committed to negotiating agreements as policy application, regardless of presented policy? Yes. Would I like to be proven wrong? Yes I would, but sadly experience has made me very sceptical of BCU/CE openness in this matter and nothing short of polarised, black and white answers will change my view.

Are BCU/CE negotiating under BCU/CE name for an agreement on the Dart? Yes/No
Are BCU/CE officers negotiating outside of BCU/CE for an agreement on the Dart? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE confirm that they will not be negotiating any agreements? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE list the rivers they are attempting to negotiate agreements on?


(This post is my personal opinion, I do not deliver it alluding to holding the only acceptable point of view, it is an area I feel strongly about and have spent time researching, it is delivered with confidence of belief of understanding of the situation, but not with arrogance or egotistical gamesmanship that dismisses all other points of view on the matter. Sometimes it is not possible to ask questions without it sounding like you are being argumentative! These questions are fundamental policy questions, the likes of which Canoe Wales would answer in an instance, should we expect anything less of BCU/CE staff and officials? They should have been answered in 2002 not still being avoided in 2012!)

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Big Henry »

morsey wrote:Are BCU/CE negotiating under BCU/CE name for an agreement on the Dart? Yes/No
Are BCU/CE officers negotiating outside of BCU/CE for an agreement on the Dart? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE confirm that they will not be negotiating any agreements? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE list the rivers they are attempting to negotiate agreements on?
Why not put these questions on their FB page, they ain't gonna be answered on here! (And probably won't be answered on there, either!)

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by morsey »

BCU/CE SW officers use this forum. I asked on the regional forum, before this thread was posted, whether BCU/CE SW were negotiating an agreement, and see no reason why an answer cannot be given on UKRGB.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by forestknights »

morsey wrote:BCU/CE SW officers use this forum. I asked on the regional forum, before this thread was posted, whether BCU/CE SW were negotiating an agreement, and see no reason why an answer cannot be given on UKRGB.
Unlikely, the BCU/CE staff seem incapable of answering direct questions clearly.
Know the wisdom of patience during times of inactivity.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Big Henry »

morsey wrote:I ...see no reason why an answer cannot be given on UKRGB.
Absolutely. I was just wondering if you HAD asked elsewhere, as there are some posters who would just come on here and make such comments and NOT ask BCU/CE directly.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by dougoutcanoe »

I really am getting fed up of being the underdog.

What is our governing body thinking of?

Certainly not the paddlers who pay and support them!

We paddlers need to see some agressive negotiation without stepping back to the past situations.

The Rivers in the UK are not private property but should be free for reasonable use by all. Fishing should be paid for if the stock has been "artificially improved" but floating down a waterway takes nothing from and creates no damage. It is a quiet, peaceful activity.

We have had too much intimidation from from riparians, fisheries and some anglers. It is time to sort them out. Please note that although we have had threats that we have "no right of navigation" and "canoeing is illegal", I don't know of any successful case against a river user.

Dougoutcanoe

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Keith Day »

dougoutcanoe wrote: Please note that although we have had threats that we have "no right of navigation" and "canoeing is illegal", I don't know of any successful case against a river user.

Dougoutcanoe
Rawson and Others v Peters (1972) was the last one I think. Douglas Caffyn details the case here on page 138. Wills Trustees v Cairngorn Canoe & Sailing School 1976 was resolved in favour of canoeists on the basis that there was a historic right of navigation on the River Spey but that does not imply that such a right exists on any other river (although it might).

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Strad »

Keith Day wrote:
dougoutcanoe wrote: Please note that although we have had threats that we have "no right of navigation" and "canoeing is illegal", I don't know of any successful case against a river user.

Dougoutcanoe
Rawson and Others v Peters (1972) was the last one I think. Douglas Caffyn details the case here on page 138. Wills Trustees v Cairngorn Canoe & Sailing School 1976 was resolved in favour of canoeists on the basis that there was a historic right of navigation on the River Spey but that does not imply that such a right exists on any other river (although it might).
from the linked text wrote: In Halsbury’s Laws of England it is stated that, ‘Lord Denning MR added (although he was
not reported on this point) that there are many cases in which a canoeist has a right to
navigate; the right may be acquired by long user or by grant or reservation, and if the
canoeist has the right, the owners of the fishing rights must allow the navigation and put up
with the disturbance of the fishing.’37

the failure of the canoeists to mention they believe there is a legal right of navigation had an impact, and the finding of this one case is generally held in poor regard...
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Big Henry »

As I suggested earlier, too many will ignore any "agreement" for any to be worth any effort at all. I can only foresee two possible events that would stop people paddling: an arrest -but for what, at "worst" we could only be accused of a breach of civil law so not an arrestable matter, or for a civil prosecution to go ahead, and even then, a lot of people will continue until a verdict going against us occurs, which we don't believe will happen.

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Mark R »

Mark R wrote:Are BCU SW negotiating an Access 'Agreement' on the Dart????

http://www.dartaa.org.uk/DFA%20AGM%2020 ... report.pdf
I am very seriously concerned by the lack of an answer to this question.
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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Ralph Wilson »

I hope this helps prompt a response from the BCU...:

...On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 10:05 PM, Ralph Wilson sent by email to the BCU:

To: info@bcu.org.uk, albert.woods@bcu.org.uk, paul.owen@bcu.org.uk, helen.reeves@bcu.org.uk
Subject: Negotiating an agreement regarding the River Dart?

Dear Officers / Representatives of the British Canoe Union,

May I draw your attention to a conversation currently occurring at the following popular canoe online forum (with over 2000 viewings of the topic in the last two weeks, no doubt many by paid-up members of your organisation), under the thread heading of "Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?":

http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... =3&t=87511

In particular it would be great if you could kindly and promptly shed light publicly (say on the forum thread itself?) on the following questions, which are of concern to some of your members such as me:

Are BCU/CE negotiating (or looking to negotiate) under BCU/CE name for an agreement on the River Dart? Yes/No
Are BCU/CE officers negotiating (or looking to negotiate) outside of BCU/CE for an agreement on the River Dart? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE confirm that they will not be negotiating any agreements? Yes/No
Can BCU/CE list the rivers they are attempting to negotiate agreements on?

I would like to think you are committed to full openness and transparency, and to dealing promptly with concerns of members and the wider canoeing community, so your silence on the matter since it arose about two weeks ago is a bit surprising and confusing. No doubt it is just that the wheels of an official body have to turn in a controlled and therefore sometimes seemingly quite slow manner? I have no doubt you are quite busy getting ready for the Olympics - but it would be great to know that you are not neglecting the rank and file members of the sport, and indeed to know specifically if you are indeed involved in some sort of negotiations regarding the River Dart at the moment. Please put us out of our misery and uphold your name!

Thank you,

Ralph Wilson

BCU membership reference: [...........]
Ralph

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Re: Setting the clock backwards on the Dart?

Post by Ralph Wilson »

(Just for avoidance of doubt: I did email to them the full URL so they could see I was referring to ukriversguidebook - that just abbreviated when I copied it into the above post on this forum)
Ralph

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