CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

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CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Strad »

Canoe England Jon - This group of volunteers previously known as River Advisors, had a change of job titles in 2011 and are now known as Regional and Local Waterway Advisors as featured in the October issue of Canoe Focus. Their role primarily entails servicing enquiries for canoeing information on behalf of Canoe England, but they also importantly support the wide range of activities undertaken by the W&E Department that was also included in the Canoe Focus article.

Policy and Position statements for guidance on access are posted on the CE website. The W&E Dept is also in contact with Regional and Local Advisors and is always on hand to provide further assistance and advice for how to proceed with any discussions and environmental issues. The Roles and Responsibilities of Advisors are also posted on the CE web site and when they are involved in any changes or new arrangements for access, their job descriptions require the W&E Dept to be consulted. It’s a two way communication of information.

There will be variations in the conditions of use for AA’s, given the differing type of water conditions and mix of attitudes within the other interested parties where CE engages in discussions. CE will always endeavour to gain the most favourable outcome having entered into discussions from a standard policy position of seeking the sustainable all year round of physically useable waterways. This is the same standard as set on the Rivers Mersey and Waveney by the DEFRA pilot access studies and the basis for the Government advising CE to follow their policy for Access Arrangements.
Regards Waterways and Environment Team
looks like the new access guy in CE is determined to go backwards.... :(
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by MikeB »

Astonishing.

THis is worrying evidence of a very real lack of joined up thinking within CE. Mike

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Tom_Laws »

What a massive bunch of jerks.

I will be contacting them once we relaunch Kayaking is Not a Crime for their comments.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Absolute rubbish. They appear to be misleading themselves on so many levels. Is this all the influence of the new man on the block?

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Adrian Cooper wrote:Is this all the influence of the new man on the block?
I have a funny feeling that the new man on the block was selected at least in part because he agreed with this approach, rather than bringing it in himself... But I hasten to add that it is just that a feeling.
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Jim_MWX »

That initial statement goes against what I was told by the people at the Rivers Access Campaign. They need to work out a combined plan of action t'otherwise we wont get much further than we are now.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - and no doubt people will disagree with me on this:

Access Agreements are not the way forward

Worrying response from CE, though hardly surprising to be honest...
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Mark R »

Keep chipping away at them. The first logical step to get something resembling a coherent policy is for them to decide on whether they consider paddling to be a legal activity, or not. They cannot be allowed to sit on the fence; they must have a position on this, otherwise what is the point of a National Governing Body?
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Jim_MWX »

Mark R wrote:Keep chipping away at them. The first logical step to get something resembling a coherent policy is for them to decide on whether they consider paddling to be a legal activity, or not. They cannot be allowed to sit on the fence; they must have a position on this, otherwise what is the point of a National Governing Body?
Agreed.
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Mark R wrote:They cannot be allowed to sit on the fence; they must have a position on this, otherwise what is the point of a National Governing Body?
Absolutely! How long it takes to pin them down on it however is another issue entirely...
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Pete the kayaker »

Keep chipping away by all means, but the BCU/CE haven't exactly got a good track record in respect of listening to it's membership.

If you disagree with this policy and you are a member of the BCU/CE, leave the organisation. Falling membership is the only thing that may hit home. Tell them why you left.

If you continue to support the BCU/CE, you are supporting their continued and now stated position that riparian landowners can dictate where and when we can paddle.
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by shanclan »

Join Canoe Wales.

If pursuing agreements is the policy, let's see a plan for clear timed outcomes that those involved are accountable for. A statement that says we will deliver favourable access agreements on 10 key rivers in 2012 would make things clearer..

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by m_kittle »

Mark R wrote:The first logical step to get something resembling a coherent policy is for them to decide on whether they consider paddling to be a legal activity, or not.
Surely they can't decide it is illegal as they'd then have to shut down CE, they can't exactly have a governing body for an illegal activity. It'd be like having a NGB for thieves and burglars.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by forestknights »

Another nail in the coffin of BCU/CE. Why are people surprised by the lack of action within the BCU on access. We need regime change, the current leadership are far more interested in their own positions and funding streams than actually fighting for the rights of ordinary recreational paddlers.
Know the wisdom of patience during times of inactivity.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Big Henry »

It seems to me that instead of trying to get people to leave the BCU/CE, someone should in fact start organising a rival Slalom league. Once it becomes popular it would start taking the serious money the BCU/CE get in grants away from them. They'd start noticing things, then! We could then argue that since the recreational paddlers are so much more important to them, they should pull their fingers out and do something!

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

Where does this leave the CE-funded Rivers Access Campaign?

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Jon Wood »

It seems that with CE hiring Mr Atkinson, he has brought with him the EA/DEFRA line on access.
This has set back any progress made by Canoe England in the past few years.
The outcome of the Brighton Report was roundly condemned at the time by the BCU as achieving nothing. Our new head of Waterways & Environment chief thinks this is the way forward!
I would say that CE is not fit to be involved in any access campaign with this huge step backwards in attitude.
Presumably CE will want to quietly move away from mentioning Caffyn's work, as they still refuse to comment on whether or not they think paddling on our rivers is legal or not.

Wildswimmer Pete, I would suggest that your organisation asks CE some hard questions about the future of the River Access Campaign.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

Jon Wood wrote: Wildswimmer Pete, I would suggest that your organisation asks CE some hard questions about the future of the River Access Campaign.
The River and Lake Swimming Association (RALSA) supports the RAC as a partner, so I'll bring these concerns to RALSA's attention.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Strad »

Apologies for getting your name wrong in the thread title Jon :-(
Old School?? I miss my AQII..
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Jon Wood »

Thanks Graeme, no worries :-)

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by rafiki »

The organisation is supposed to be in some sense democratic, isn't it?? (I'm sure I get yearly things through the post to vote for people.)
Is there any way we can lobby for a referendum (of CE members) for what their access policy CE should adopt going forward?
It seems obscene that employees of the organisation can just make up BCU/CE-policy with no mandate...

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Pete the kayaker »

rafiki wrote:The organisation is supposed to be in some sense democratic, isn't it??
Have a read of this thread from some time back and the only action taken as a result of the EGM that was called.

They'll throw the dogs an odd bone occasionally...
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Adrian Cooper »

James F in November 2005 wrote:I’m interested to hear what the BCU's next activity will be. I trust that, after a round of deserved mutual back-slapping, the Exec will begin to implement the next campaign activity, already loaded into the overall strategy.

I doubt that they will just sit about planning the next big slalom event... :-)
Is anyone else interested?

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by morsey »

Jon Wood wrote:I would say that CE is not fit to be involved in any access campaign with this huge step backwards in attitude.
What are you going to do Jon? You can't take on the BCU/CE without all the clubs, and all the clubs still listen to the utter nonsense being doled out by the regional access peeps! Regional access says you need agreements, clubs say okay we need agreements. Ditch the regional access peeps, is step one. Step two is ditching the entire BCU/CE board. Nothing else will sort this from within BCU/CE.

This is not an issue that has just sprung up, this is an issue that BCU/CE are repeatedly getting wrong.

Recreational paddlers you know what you need to do. Forget the idea of confronting the BCU/CE is it really worth your bother? I doubt it. Why not sort several issues with one sweep.

Access messed up.
Coaching scheme all over the shop.
Communication (sorry what!).
Domestic competition being used to attain the coppers for the Olympic coaching and admin (no sorry I meant athletes!) at the detriment to grass roots and non Olympic disciplines.


BCU is the paddlers and organisers in clubs and events each pool session, each comp, each club trip, each coaching session, each river trip.

BCU/HQ is nothing to do with the above, it was lost back in the eighties and isn't looking like it is going to play catch up any time soon.

All the clubs, all the domestic competitors, all the recreation paddlers need a new representative body.

And before anyone says it: Insurance is easy enough to sort out.

Look at the model of the SUP association, they popped up and just did everything that would be needed to be done in a time scale that leaves BCU back in the Jurassic!

One clean sweep get rid of all the baggage!!

BCU their heart is not in recreational and domestic canoeing, it is and always will be about the Olympic dream for BCU. Leave them to it, we have several thousand paddlers who make calculated risks week in week out, surely with an assessment of costs and pros and cons we can make a decision on whether it is time; Canoeing got a new lease of life.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Adrian Cooper »

morsey wrote:
Jon Wood wrote: all the clubs still listen to the utter nonsense being doled out by the regional access peeps! Regional access says you need agreements, clubs say okay we need agreements.
No they don't

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by morsey »

Glad to hear that not all clubs are restricted in that manner.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by morsey »

Glad to hear that not all clubs are restricted in that manner.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Adrian Cooper »

That's OK, I knew it was intended to be a sweeping generalisation for effect.

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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by forestknights »

Adrian Cooper wrote:
morsey wrote:
Jon Wood wrote: all the clubs still listen to the utter nonsense being doled out by the regional access peeps! Regional access says you need agreements, clubs say okay we need agreements.
No they don't
Several clubs I know have been involved in quite cosy little agreements for their members at the exclusion of non members. one of the reasons i am nit a member of my local clubs.
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Re: CE reply to John Wood's access questions on FB

Post by Pam Bell »

shanclan wrote:Join Canoe Wales.

If pursuing agreements is the policy, let's see a plan for clear timed outcomes that those involved are accountable for. A statement that says we will deliver favourable access agreements on 10 key rivers in 2012 would make things clearer..
Oh no, not again...

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