Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

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Pete C.
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Pete C. »

Tom_Laws wrote:Get as close as you can - hoof a gert big throw line in where they dissapeared... and hope you hit them in the chest not the face.
This is a good first stopgap action. It gives the pinned paddler something to hold onto and support themselves from.

I've used it once, and the friend we rescued (backwards pin - couldn't lean far enough forward to release) said that it meant he could twist around to get a couple of snatched breaths in the air pocket he was in. No guarantee, but it gave us about another minute to work with.

In this case, it wasn't somewhere we could set a tagline, and we only had one person on the correct bank to live bait - the other side of the pinning drop was an island. In the end one of our number jumped in without a live bait and managed to lift out the pinned paddler and boat. Then my stabilising line caught around his throat and swung them both into the bank. Which is lucky, because there was another 400m of continuous grade V below. This is not textbook technique, and it multiplied the risk drastically - but in this situation it worked.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by ion »

clarky999 wrote:
davebrads wrote:
Andy H wrote:What you have to remember is if the pinned paddler is fully underwater and hasnt found a airpocket then they only have 20-40 seconds max after that you are no longer trying to rescue a live body.
5 minutes or so and CPR will probably work
I don't think the chances of CPR working are ever considered probable - especially without a defib.
Whenever I hear people claim CPR on the river is ineffective I'm always drawn to direct them to stories of Chaos on the LWS, I can think of nowhere else where more Cold, Blue, non breathing paddlers have been resuscitated:

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/140818
http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/141536/
http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/ ... 8&item=228

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by davebrads »

clarky999 wrote:I don't think the chances of CPR working are ever considered probable - especially without a defib.
I think what you are referring to is the chances of restarting the heart in the case it has stopped altogether, if you get to them within 5 or 6 minutes the heart should still be working, and all you are doing is getting the breathing going again.
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Joe L »

Tom_Laws wrote:Get as close as you can - hoof a gert big throw line in where they dissapeared (if they totally disappear and leave no trace we assume they are in narnia) and hope you hit them in the chest not the face.
Throw bags are good but if they don't get the rope after the first shot then theres no chance of throwing coils through the curtain. Also in boily pools behind waterfalls throwlines tend to sink on their own, having a padlle attached keeps them on the surface and obvious.

Try to have a carabiner in the paddlee javelin set-up as well. Then if the victim needs to clip on it means they dont have to go through there BA to find their own biner. Also it is apperently quite hard to hold onto a paddle while being out under the curtain of a drop. Especially if you are in your boat.

One thing to watch for is the victims throwbag. I have personal experience of and heard of several rescues where the victim managed to get to their throwbag and throw the line downstream.

Not sure about chucking a boat into the drop with them. While it would be something big to hold onto for a swimmer it may be difficult to get it in there and might not be ideal if they are pinned.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by clarky999 »

ion wrote:
Whenever I hear people claim CPR on the river is ineffective I'm always drawn to direct them to stories of Chaos on the LWS, I can think of nowhere else where more Cold, Blue, non breathing paddlers have been resuscitated:

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/140818
http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/141536/
http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/ ... 8&item=228
I'm not saying it's ineffective, I'm saying the majority of the time, without a defib, it fails (my gf is a part-time paramedic studying medicine). Of course that's not too say you don't try it, if that's your mate lying cold on the ground you thump at that heart 'til your arms fall off.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by john smith »

clarky999 wrote:
ion wrote:
Whenever I hear people claim CPR on the river is ineffective I'm always drawn to direct them to stories of Chaos on the LWS, I can think of nowhere else where more Cold, Blue, non breathing paddlers have been resuscitated:

http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/140818
http://boatertalk.com/forum/BoaterTalk/141536/
http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/ ... 8&item=228
I'm not saying it's ineffective, I'm saying the majority of the time, without a defib, it fails (my gf is a part-time paramedic studying medicine). Of course that's not too say you don't try it, if that's your mate lying cold on the ground you thump at that heart 'til your arms fall off.
Forget defibs, they don't work with the rhythm your heart will probably go into as a result of drowning.

It is standard practice in the emergency services to treat every drowning incident as a rescue and not recovery for the first 90 minutes of submersion. Obviously the quicker the better but instant solutions aren't always available.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Active Adventure SW »

davebrads wrote:
clarky999 wrote:I don't think the chances of CPR working are ever considered probable - especially without a defib.
I think what you are referring to is the chances of restarting the heart in the case it has stopped altogether, if you get to them within 5 or 6 minutes the heart should still be working, and all you are doing is getting the breathing going again.


this reminds me of a quote from one of our expedition doctors (A&E trauma specialist)..."they are not dead until they are in hospital WARM and dead.... what he means by this is that in sudden cold water immersion and prolonged immersion...the chances of restarting the heart are increased if the casualty can be rewarmed in a controlled environment and resus attempted upto an hour later. (it has worked on children falling into ice cold water upto 24hrs later...I'll hunt the medical journal out)...

Although the chances are low...dont give up... purely depends on what rhythm the the heart is in... ventricular fibulation can be shocked... asystolic can't and needs epinephrine so the cpr will continue a vital suply of oxygen until all other options are ruled out.

Chance of receiving CPR in timeCPR is only likely to be effective if commenced within 6 minutes after the blood flow stops,[52] because permanent brain cell damage occurs when fresh blood infuses the cells after that time, since the cells of the brain become dormant in as little as 4–6 minutes in an oxygen deprived environment and the cells are unable to survive the reintroduction of oxygen in a traditional resuscitation. Research using cardioplegic blood infusion resulted in a 79.4% survival rate with cardiac arrest intervals of 72±43 minutes, traditional methods achieve a 15% survival rate in this scenario, by comparison. New research is currently needed to determine what role CPR, electroshock, and new advanced gradual resuscitation techniques will have with this new knowledge[53] A notable exception is cardiac arrest occurring in conjunction with exposure to very cold temperatures. Hypothermia seems to protect by slowing down metabolic and physiologic processes, greatly decreasing the tissues' need for oxygen.[54] There are cases where CPR, defibrillation, and advanced warming techniques have revived victims after substantial periods of hypothermia.[55]

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by TechnoEngineer »

Joe L wrote:One thing to watch for is the victims throwbag. I have personal experience of and heard of several rescues where the victim managed to get to their throwbag and throw the line downstream.
Good point - something useful to remember.

BTW - note there is a difference between "casualty" (someone in trouble who can help himself to some degree) and "victim" (someone in trouble who can't help himself).
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by chrism »

Active Adventure SW wrote:
davebrads wrote:
clarky999 wrote:I don't think the chances of CPR working are ever considered probable - especially without a defib.
I think what you are referring to is the chances of restarting the heart in the case it has stopped altogether, if you get to them within 5 or 6 minutes the heart should still be working, and all you are doing is getting the breathing going again.


this reminds me of a quote from one of our expedition doctors (A&E trauma specialist)..."they are not dead until they are in hospital WARM and dead.... what he means by this is that in sudden cold water immersion and prolonged immersion...the chances of restarting the heart are increased if the casualty can be rewarmed in a controlled environment and resus attempted upto an hour later. (it has worked on children falling into ice cold water upto 24hrs later...I'll hunt the medical journal out)...
Well I have personal experience of a friend being stuck in a siphon for about 15 minutes (+-a lot - I don't think anybody was paying much attention to the time, and in such circumstances your own perception of time passing is pretty rubbish - that's the best guess). When we eventually got her to flush through, CPR was carried out by other rescuers on a rock in the river for some time before ambulance arrived - I presume they then did defib etc., but had by that point departed the scene. I was sure she was dead and didn't really want to hang around too close - was also rather cold once the adrenalin had worn off, after 15 minutes or so mostly in the glacial melt water.

She survived - presumably due to the low water temperature - though badly brain damaged, and despite still being young eventually died 8 years later. Who knows whether it would have made any difference if the chaps doing CPR known the medical stuff you quoted and done something different with the resus. The point though is that CPR did work, well past the point most people would be declaring somebody dead (I might have thought she was dead, but would have still got involved with the CPR had there not been others better placed to do so).

The other thought relating to rescues is that looking back, I wasn't half in harms way myself, working above the siphon attempting to free the branches which had jammed her in - not necessarily something you think too clearly about in those circumstances.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by clarky999 »

Exactly, you never stop until pronounced dead by a doctor.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Kayak-Bloke »

clarky999 wrote:Exactly, you never stop until pronounced dead by a doctor.
Or you're too tired to continue.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by AndyK »

clarky999 wrote:I don't think the chances of CPR working are ever considered probable - especially without a defib.
All MR teams have AEDs with them as well as oxygen, airway adjuncts, bag & masks and if your lucky, the team doctor.
If you can, keep going with CPR until they arrive. 30 chests compressions : 2 breaths. Keep that brain oxygenated, don't think negative!.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Jonny Kennedy »

So, back to the rescue situation... Poke, is there a story to this hypothetical or a 'textbook' answer?! Or are we do always see what happens if this event should unfortunately occur in future?
One question I would ask is - Can you safely live bait someone into the mess in the waterfall under time pressure before they too could disappear and make it worse?
Is it a case of keep throwing lines or paddles in to see if you get lucky as thats reluctantly the 'safest' thing to do??
Great thread

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by DaveBland »

Jonny Kennedy wrote:Can you safely live bait someone into the mess in the waterfall under time pressure before they too could disappear and make it worse?
Is it a case of keep throwing lines or paddles in to see if you get lucky as thats reluctantly the 'safest' thing to do??
Due to the dangers, live baiting is a very personal choice, usually based on how many beers the 'victim' owes you and whether they have the team camera on them.

... and yeah, Poke, c'mon, what's the answer?
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by clarky999 »

Jonny Kennedy wrote:So, back to the rescue situation... Poke, is there a story to this hypothetical or a 'textbook' answer?! Or are we do always see what happens if this event should unfortunately occur in future?
One question I would ask is - Can you safely live bait someone into the mess in the waterfall under time pressure before they too could disappear and make it worse?
Is it a case of keep throwing lines or paddles in to see if you get lucky as thats reluctantly the 'safest' thing to do??
Great thread

Jonny
Safety is subjective, and whilst the 'golden rule' is to never risk yourself, I have a lot of friends who I would risk myself for without having to think about it.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by W5RAY »

Nothing you do should make the situation any worse for you or your team!
If after waiting for a few seconds your mate has not appeared then your mate is definitely stuck and in need of help.
So, your mates stuck, leaving 1 on one bank and 3 on the other.
Get eyes up on the area asap, you know the line and hence the probable area he is in with regards to his direction before 'pinning' and river flow. Keep one man at the base with throwline in readiness in case he flushes - your mate won't be too pleased if he extracts himself and then disappears off down G2/3 because no-one was there to bag him.
Next up will be to get a weighted tag line (as stated already) and start moving up the fall, whilst this is being set up the last mate can either throw in a weighted bag or paddle spear in to the general area and hope he gets lucky.
While the tag line is ongoing the guy at the bottom and the spear thrower start setting up for a V-lower from the top so long as someone is okay to do this and it would have to be very site specific in that it was possible to bring the live baiter back up relatively easily.
If this isn't feasible and the tag line didn't work a weighted one bankcinch line (double bag, big loop thrown by two people) thrown from the nearest bank to where your mate probably is. Now is also the time to get one of the team to go for help as opportunities for rescue are diminishing.

So was this a real scenario and what was/is the perfect rescue - hope all was okay.

Ray

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by W5RAY »

Poke wrote: Assume it is possible for the guy on river left to get up to the bottom of the fall and clamber out onto the base of the fall, but there is nothing to easily fix a line to from this point.
Re-reading the above from Poke - if the guy river left can't get any further up the river than the base of the fall then I would set up a diagonal high line to go over the area where you think your mate is. This could be lowered and moved up and down river right trying to snag either boat or mate. If this doesn't work then it really leaves a live bait scenario, two holding the diagonal line, one live baiter and last man with an additional line attached to the live baiter so if he releases from the diagonal line he can be quickly pulled in to the side plus more importantly his descent can be controlled from the bank similar to a Y-lower. The two on the diagonal can move up or down to adjust the angle and the location of the live baiter so allowing a quick sweep.

Other than that I am at a loss! Be good to know the best solution!

Ray

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Dave McCraw »

It would depend a lot on seeing the drop in motion IMO. It looks to me more of a "stuck on the bed in the green" sort of drop than a "stuck behind the curtain" but you'd know better in "real life".

Assuming the former - they might have an air pocket so, most important is not to do anything which might make the situation worse, jumping blindly in being one of them.

The pair on the right need to get out onto the rocks beside the tongue in case it's possible to connect using a paddle. As the drop is not so wide, hopefully it will reveal something that can be of use, or a surge may reveal the tail of the boat, or whatever. If you still can't see anything, or feel anything, then options reduce to dragging a line I think, and hoping you snag something.

If you can see the stern of the boat, but can't contact the paddler (or they don't respond), you can try to tag the boat but at that point I would live bait, hoping that the force from the side even of the baitee hitting the boat and being swept off it might change things.

If you can't feel anything within the full range of your paddle, I don't think live bait is going to be useful - it might be on a drop with less volume though. Having said that, as desperation sets in, at least there is a possibility of grabbing something whereas nobody (air pocket or not) is going to survive more than a short period in that kind of jet. Depending who was stuck, I'd be going in on a bag when the quick and immediate chances start to run out.

IMO the guy on the left would be most useful moving up onto the island if safe to do so. It's impossible to tell from the angle if the extreme left above the drop is shallow / narrow / calm enough or the island practical to sit on, so obviously that might be crazy, but if possible, it would open up the chance to lower a bag (with the line already removed, so it sinks in the flow) into the most likely place for the victim to grab it.

At the end of the day, the best chance is for the paddler to extract themselves, at whatever cost.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by box2k2 »

Some alternative angles.

River right looking up:

Image

River right looking down:

Image

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Poke »

The answer… is that there is no one right answer.

As many of you now know, there is indeed a story behind this one. It was a genuine situation we were faced with, and my main reasons for posting were for myself to see whether we missed anything obvious we could have done, but also to hopefully to share some collective wisdom as to what might be the best approach in situations like this.

So… the incident itself happened exactly as described (boat and paddler pinned in the fall, not stuck in a cave behind the curtain as postulated above). The pinned paddler was Dave, my brother. It is likely he was pinned nearer to horizontal than vertical, but as we couldn’t see him it’s hard to say.The whole thing lasted three minutes – one of the guys had been filming with a waterproof camera attached to his BA. Listening back to this after the event we could just about work out the length of the incident.

Anyway, a brief summary of our rescue efforts, timing in [mins:secs]:
  • [0:00 to 0:30] Everyone scrambles to the point nearest the rescue on their respective side of the river
  • [0:15 to 1:00] Initially, ropes thrown into the fall from river right. Completely ineffective, but the quickest and easiest thing to do lacking anything else
  • [0:50 to 1:20] One person river right clipped into live bait. Did not jump, mainly because they didn’t think they’d be able to reach the victim/thought the risk of injury was too high.
  • [1:20 to 2:20] Tag-line set-up across the river. Takes more time than it should by having to re-coil ropes thrown initially and person river left falling in/having to climb back up. When this was across the river we tried to sink the line under the water to attempt to scoop Dave up to give him some air. No luck.
  • [2:20 to 2:55] Person river left (me) tries to clip themselves onto tag-line to live bait in. Someone from the other side would have been better positioned, but I was getting desperate – it seemed like he had been in there for way longer than survival would be possible.
  • [2:55] The boat resurfaces upside down. One person immediately jumps in (unroped) incase he’s still in there.
  • [3:00] Others see that the boat is empty and scan downriver. Dave had made it out of his boat before it washed free and is ~30m downstream weakly swimming into an eddy minus his helmet. We’d missed him getting washed free, but he’s out and safe, although injured (He escaped by pushing himself into the flow, inverting his right knee in the process).
  • The emergency services are called, and he is eventually extracted from the gorge by helicopter.
In short, I think we did almost everything we could have whilst he was pinned in there. However, we certainly didn’t do it efficiently as a result of rushing. I’m not sure there is any way around this. It’s easy to say “Don’t panic”, but when you’re faced with that situation you’d be hard pushed to find anyone that would stay completely calm.

The only thing I think we didn’t do which we perhaps should have, is have a “spotter” – someone keeping an eye out for the victim floating out downstream. It was only when Dave’s boat came out after he did that we spotted him – and it was only luck that meant he hadn’t already been washed around the corner. Some people here have suggested leaving someone in their boat downstream as a catcher. Whilst great in theory, this is an incredibly tough call to make unless you have a huge group. You’d need to be very disciplined to send someone away from potentially undermanned rescue efforts to sit and wait downstream.

Possibly the reason he’d taken so long to free himself was that he’d taken a hefty whack to the head (cockpit rim?) when he was pinned, and had taken the first two minutes to come around enough to escape. Dave says he only remembers being in there about 30 secs. Luckily he had an air pocket – though from the bank this looked like an impossibility.



A few thoughts/questions/answers of mine around some of the above suggestions and the incident in general.:
  1. Person in the boat: If possible try to signal where you are so rescuers can direct their efforts.
  2. Personal kit: Bright colours help you get seen. Don’t dress like a ninja!
  3. Don’t give up. There is always a chance they’ve got an air-pocket and are OK, just stuck.
  4. Timing – I’ve heard it before that having an easily accessible watch is recommended, as in situations like these (assuming you have the presence of mind to start the stopwatch), you will have a good idea of how long the casualty has been without air for. Possibly worthwhile when the emergency services arrive.
  5. I was on river left by myself, trying to clip myself to a line that had been thrown from the other side. A new BA meant that my cowstail was on the opposite side to where I was used to it being. In the panic I assume that it must have come detached and try to clip myself onto the line. This proves to be nigh-on impossible in panic mode without a cowstail. I know there is a fair debate as to whether to have a cows-tail. I’ve always worn one, but never been 100% convinced that it is necessary. I am now.
  6. To sink a cross-river tag-line under such fast flowing water it needs a heavy weight attached to it. Throwbag full of rocks, perhaps?
  7. There are some very good suggestions above (my favourite being the V-line anchored at the top of each side of the fall, allowing the rescuer to remain static in the fall to effect a rescue), but many of these take time to set-up (even finding enough rocks to weight down a throwbag). Do you go for the quick options first – throw bags at them, simple tag line. Live bait. Or do you risk leaving them to go unconscious by setting up more complex rescue rigs
    Jim wrote:lucky you thought to put someone on the opposite bank, I can't say that we do very often. It isn't going to be easy to arrange.
  8. Person (me) on river left was purely there to take photos. Not through any safety preparedness. In fact, so much so, that I’d hopped in someone elses boat to ferry across, leaving my throwline on the far bank. I’m SO annoyed at myself for this. I’m usually extremely conscientious when it comes to having a throwline on me at all times. It made things much worse for me, as I was alone on the left bank, unable to do anything but wait for a rope to be thrown across the river and curse myself for being an imbecile. Things to take away from this: freaking obvious, but ALWAYS have your throw-bag on you – even if others are “on safety”.
  9. It’s easy for everyone to get drawn into trying to rescue the victim. Keep someone watching downstream for them to wash out. It is very easy to miss them if they wash out (we did). As has been said. Ideally, you want someone in their boat downstream, but man-power may restrict options.
  10. Weighted tag-line or throwbag - what do you weight the bag with?
  11. Paddle javelin/weighted throwbag – you may well do more damage to the casualty. Have you ever been hit round the back of the head with a paddle, or a bag of rocks. If you weren’t unconscious in the first place, you might well be once your rescuers are through with you. Consider the consequences before using.
  12. Mobile phone – carry one, especially if away from civilisation. If we hadn’t got one with us (we had two, but one got wet and died), it would have taken MUCH longer to summon outside assistance. It might be worth pointing out here that it is possible to text 999, but your phone needs to be registered with the service first.
Dave is going in tomorrow for the first of two operations to rebuild his knee. He has another in six weeks (apparantly opening up his other leg, trimming one of the tendons in there to transplant into his knackered knee). He'll be off boating for up to a year, and his knee is unlikely to ever be back to 100%. His main worry is it not being able to hold up on long-heavy walk-ins as he's previously "enjoyed" in Cali, Tajikistan amongst others. There's also a fair chance he may have to drop back a year of uni as a result of time off. He's understandably gutted, but having recently lost his old housemate in a paragliding accident, he's pragmatic about the injury, given other potential outcomes.

Apologies for this epic post, but thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion. If you have any further comments/questions on anything above fire away.

I hope that if anyone reading is ever unlucky enough to be in a similar situation, that something here comes in useful.
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Lowri Davies
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Lowri Davies »

Great post Tim - unusually constructive thread in the aftermath of the an incident and that is mainly down to the way in which you initiated the discussion so well done.

Wishing you a speedy recovery Dave!

p.s. one question, at what point and how did Dave's helmet come off? On impact or with the flow as he exited?

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by clarky999 »

Excellent post - glad to hear your brother is at least 'reasonably' ok, hope the recovery goes well. Sounds similar to Chris Wheeler's accident on Conwy Falls?

What's the river btw?

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Bruce Jolliffe »

Tim,
If ever a post deserved to be epic then that was one. I hope your wee brother makes a speedy recovery.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by AlexHolt »

We need a <like> button.

Fantastic post

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by box2k2 »

Lowri Davies wrote:p.s. one question, at what point and how did Dave's helmet come off? On impact or with the flow as he exited?
No one seems sure, but it seems sensible (logical?) that Dave probably head butted the front deck (evidenced by wide bruise on forehead) and that the water got under the helmet and lifted it off.

Whatever happened we never saw it again, despite sweeping the river the following day.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by box2k2 »

Another point that came up during the call to the emergency services (unfortunately second round for me) was our actual location.

While we knew where we were, actually passing this information on was trickier than you might first think.

Having learned this once before, I always carry a smartphone with GPS and a grid ref app, but this failed due to water immersion.

As an example, I know the order of all the rapids on the Upper Dart and the Loop, but I doubt I could explain where those features are on a map to a hillwalker or a total stranger.

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by Lowri Davies »

I went to a presentation by the Mountain Rescue crews from around North Wales last week and they said exactly the same thing. People rely on smartphones which fail for whatever reason (out of battery, water, out of signal etc). A map and grid ref is the best way, but realistically who has a map for every river they go to? And do you know how to work out where you are?

Even on reasonably accessible rivers you need to know how you are going to explain where you without the use of any kayaking related terminology. e.g. North of village x on west bank, will be better than downstream of village x on river right bank. Maps are very useful to tell you what is around that the operator might know or be able to find!

One thing they did say was that if you do have a smartphone with GPS they can now send you a text which asks if they can track you. If you accept they can pin-point you immediately. This technology has also known to be used in order to track a certain Mr Woods so he can't lie when he says "I'm just leaving Bala".

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scottdog007
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by scottdog007 »

http://www.emergencysms.org.uk/

Register your mobile here, then it makes it easy to send for help. Seems in some locations where a phone call will not get through a text message will.

Ah better link
http://www.emergencysms.org.uk/register ... _phone.php

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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by TechnoEngineer »

When on sea trips I make a habit of having the phone numbers for Coastguard programmed in, and I also use "contacts" to remember non-phone-number numbers. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination to program in "contacts" that contain feature names with grid references for the "phone number". Or just carry a map....

Great thread, great epic post with good learning points, and what a great way to get a discussion going without seeding it.
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W5RAY
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Re: Hypothetical Rescue Scenario

Post by W5RAY »

Excellent worthwhile post Poke!
Another "like".
Hope your brother gets well soon!

Ray

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