Pinpointing features on Upper dart

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W5RAY
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Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:06 pm

I'm trying to pinpoint reasonably exact, the locations of the main drops on the Upper Dart on a map for a club trip. Having read the guide it is not 100% clear where these drops are and although I've paddled the Upper on a number of occasions I can't remember exactly where things are either.
So:-
1. Just before Venford Brook is an island marked Blackpool on my map, for more fun this is river right and cut back through middle on a flare then drop into the slot - does this rapid have a name?
2. The Mad Mile starts on a right hand bend a bit further down I'm assuming this runs past Meltor Wood and finishes around Hockinston Marsh?
3. Next up is Bellpool Island and Euthanasia. The easier route (never been down) is on river left - does this get run?
4. This brings us up to the next major feature Surprise Surprise. Is this located at the end of Wellsfoot Island?

Thanks in advance!

Ray

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by box2k2 » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:19 pm

1. I think you are tinking of Luckey Tor. I've heard it called Cannonball too.

4. Surprise surpirse is Sharrahs Pool

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:31 pm

box2k2 wrote: 4. Surprise surpirse is Sharrahs Pool
That would make Surprise Surprise before Euthanasia???

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:32 pm

W5RAY wrote: Euthanasia. The easier route (never been down) is on river left - does this get run?
Ran this by accident once. Pretty much all of the rapids run river left until you get to Euthanasia. Three of us (the other two with a lot of experience of the river) were bumbling along at the back; we looked across and said ‘what are those doing over there?’ We hit an eddy to check what we were doing. It was all fine except for the breakout which put us right on a cushion wave behind a huge boulder. It all went fine from there through a bit of a boulder garden.

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:38 pm

W5RAY wrote:1. Just before Venford Brook is an island marked Blackpool on my map, for more fun this is river right and cut back through middle on a flare then drop into the slot - does this rapid have a name?
That rapid if called Luckey Tor, as Luckey Tor itself is just to the left. Blackpool is the pool on the corner, some 200m above the start of Luckey Tor.
W5RAY wrote:2. The Mad Mile starts on a right hand bend a bit further down I'm assuming this runs past Meltor Wood and finishes around Hockinston Marsh?
The Mad Mile, starts at Board Ledge, that's the 3 river wide bed rock ledges, to the pool below Surprise Surprise.
W5RAY wrote:3. Next up is Bellpool Island and Euthanasia. The easier route (never been down) is on river left - does this get run?
Bellpool, is at the end of a 200m long rapid, that is directly below Board Ledge. In high water, this forms one of the largest features on the run, a diagonal left to right hole.
W5RAY wrote:4. This brings us up to the next major feature Surprise Surprise. Is this located at the end of Wellsfoot Island?
Yes, and the pool below Surprise Surprise is Sharrahs Pool.

Clearly you have gotten a very high resolution map, given that you have all the small islands and fishing pool names, please scan it in and lets see it on here.

Cheers

Simon

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:55 pm

Simon,

Sent you an email with map attached.

Ray

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Mark R » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:35 pm

There are some serious geographical errors in this thread.

Bellpool Island is after all of the rapids named above - it's the long island after the river calms down, that paddlers go left of in low water (eventually heading back to rejoin the river right channel via a nice little gutter chute).

Wellsfoot island is right towards the end of the run, it can be recognised by a tiny channel heading off left under a footbridge.

I am not aware of the name 'Broad Ledge', but know this spot as Broadstone (the OS seem to agree with me).
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by steve1rc » Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:45 pm

W5RAY wrote:The easier route (never been down) is on river left - does this get run?
On Euthanasia there is a run on river left (on the right hand side of the island) Go left of the rock at the top (between the rock and the tree) and it seems a fairly easy route down... I've only ever seen other groups use it if they didn't want to go off the ledge drop/alongside it.
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Steve B » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:02 pm

Mark R wrote:I am not aware of the name 'Broad Ledge', but know this spot as Broadstone (the OS seem to agree with me).
Local paddlers just call that "the ledges" - sounds like the two names have got jumbled together.
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Mark R » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:10 pm

I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Simon » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:54 pm

W5RAY wrote:I'm trying to pinpoint reasonably exact, the locations of the main drops on the Upper Dart on a map for a club trip. Having read the guide it is not 100% clear where these drops are and although I've paddled the Upper on a number of occasions I can't remember exactly where things are either.
So:-

snip

Ray
My experience of the Upper Dart is that different clubs or groups apply the same name to different features on the river, so the name Euthanasia, for example, can be applied to a number of different falls, depending on which group you paddle with. I don't think naming the Upper Dart will never be a settled matter. We have been trying for about forty years and obviously have not got it right yet.

But don't worry about it. We used to pay a game that if one paddler on the Upper Dart ran a feature following a certain line, then the next one down HAD to follow a different line. If you were seventh down you needed to be pretty creative. I can guarantee that you can go down both sides of every island, and there are multiple routes down every feature. It's just that some lines are more exciting than others.

Enjoy!

Simon

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Simon Westgarth » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:48 pm

W5RAY wrote:3. Next up is Bellpool Island and Euthanasia. The easier route (never been down) is on river left - does this get run?
Bellpool, is at the end of a 200m long rapid, that is directly below Board Ledge. In high water, this forms one of the largest features on the run, a diagonal left to right hole.

Correction, Melpool and not Bellpool.

Bellpool is at the end of all the fun, as Mark has pointed out.

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by AlexHolt » Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:56 pm

We need to start with something like this
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 11#p588212

then when we all agree finish up with something like this
http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/foru ... 34&t=84424

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 7:33 am

For very detailed maps of UK (although without the features named) I haven't found anything better than:
http://www.elgin.gov.uk/

It zooms in to 1:250 scale!

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Steve B » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:28 am

Wow, that's quite a discovery.

Bellpool island is named as it happens, though no doubt many others are not.
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:19 am

Mark R wrote:I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
Ahh! This is were my confusion abounds! I was looking at the map and going off the UKRGB description, trying to get the features to fit the map - hence the call for help! - I'll check English WW version tonight.

Thanks Mark!

Ray

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Steve B » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:07 am

Mark R wrote:I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
I had to check - couldn't stop myself :-) Storry has Bell Pool Island (his spelling) in the correct place.
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:23 pm

From Sharrah Pool (below Surprise, Surprise / Pandora's Box / Lady Sarah) to Newbridge (& also Holne Bridge to Totnes Weir) names are on the maps page of http://www.dartaa.org.uk/

Bellpool being spelt both ways on the detailed map...

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:38 pm

Steve B wrote:Wow, that's quite a discovery.

Bellpool island is named as it happens, though no doubt many others are not.
Ah yes, if you zoom to 1:5000 up to 1:10000 scale then several features are named, in order from Dartmeet:
Combestone Island - 1st big one
Blackpool - just upstream of Luckey Tor
Broadstone - just above the ledges
Mel Pool - upstream of Euthanasia
Sharrah Pool - as mentioned
Bellpool, Little Bellpool & Long Islands - all together
Wellsfoot Island - with the little bridge across to it (on the paddle out)
Horseshoe Falls & Salters Pool just before Newbridge...

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:42 pm

Cheers Mike, that now makes more sense! Thanks

Ray

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by JonT » Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:44 pm

For very detailed maps of UK (although without the features named) I haven't found anything better than:
http://www.elgin.gov.uk/

It zooms in to 1:250 scale!
Ah yes, if you zoom to 1:5000 up to 1:10000 scale then several features are named......
But all the river info that we have been discussing (and much more besides) is simply on the OS 1:25,000 !!!

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=26 ... &A=Y&Z=115

Thanks for bringing this up for correction Ray, I think there has been quite a bit of confusion for a while.

I don't know the River as well as many others, but I think that :-
Euthenasia is at : 694720
Suprise-Suprise at : 695716
approx.
Have I got it right??

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:08 pm

So they are, streetmap also has the same map as elgin at 1:2500. The elgin site zooms in to another, more detailed, level though if you are interested in property boundaries.

Your co-ordinates are correct, although you do need the SX prefix to pinpoint the correct map!

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by waverley610 » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:46 pm

W5RAY wrote:I'm trying to pinpoint reasonably exact, the locations of the main drops on the Upper Dart on a map for a club trip.
A couple of season's ago when the DART CAM was being sponsored by Nookie; the page also included a tidy little map titled:

'Upper Dart Rapids Location Sketch Map' copyright Steve Whetman 2009

The sketch map gave grid references for marked points <quoted> as follows:

A. Ledge GR 6765 7219
B. Lucky Tour Rapid GR 6850 7199
C. Playwave GR 6876 7226
D. Broad Ledges GR 6893 7235
E. Ledge Drops GR 6930 7219
F. Euthenasia GR 6916 7202
G. Sharrah Pool GR 6964 7170


It didn't show the islands which I had to sketch in on my printout, but did show the locations of footpaths which are useful for anyone needing to walk out.

Perhaps if approached Nookie could get this reloaded on their website. My print out is now in poor condition after being taken down the river in a dry bag several times.


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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:11 pm

It already is: http://www.nookie.co.uk/riverresource/u ... /index.htm

& if you click on the map you get a printable pdf!

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Mark R » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:30 pm

Steve B wrote:
Mark R wrote:I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
I had to check - couldn't stop myself :-) Storry has Bell Pool Island (his spelling) in the correct place.

I had a look. He doesn't! He has it alongside Euthanasia.
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:50 pm

Alan Fox also has Bell Pool Island at start of Euthanasia in "Run River Run" which was published the year before...

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Simon » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:49 pm

Mark R wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Mark R wrote:I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
I had to check - couldn't stop myself :-) Storry has Bell Pool Island (his spelling) in the correct place.

I had a look. He doesn't! He has it alongside Euthanasia.
As I said, back in the 70s and 80s Euthanasia was in a lot of different places depending on which club you paddled with, or apparently which guide you read.

Perhaps the internet will allow the confusion to finally be sorted out.

Simon

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by Steve B » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:39 pm

Mark R wrote:
Steve B wrote:
Mark R wrote:I've just noticed that the guide on this site (penned by me in the 90s) also had Bellpool above Euthanasia. Thankfully I didn't make this mistake in 'English White Water'. I have a feeling this mistake runs right back to Terry Storry as well...
I had to check - couldn't stop myself :-) Storry has Bell Pool Island (his spelling) in the correct place.

I had a look. He doesn't! He has it alongside Euthanasia.
Well, obviously I'm not lying about it am I?? Bottom of page 213, after mentioning Euthanasia, "Further still there is the much larger Bell Pool Island, marking the start of a pleasant final kilometre..."

Presumably you have a different edition - mine is the 1994 reprint..
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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by jmmoxon » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:42 am

The original 1991 edition has Bell Pool above Euthanasia (which as Simon pointed out is actually Mel Pool), so someone obviously realised the mistake.

For at least 20 years Euthanasia has referred to the same rapid.

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Re: Pinpointing features on Upper dart

Post by W5RAY » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:47 am

Wow!
I thought it was just me getting confused with the order!
Glad I posted this and hopefully this is now all cleared up!!! Yippee!

Mark - Do you think the UKRGB online Upper Dart review could be amended while it is fresh in our minds to prevent any further confusion???

Thanks everybody for resolving this.

Cheers Ray

ps Hopefully see you all on the water at Euthanasia......................

..................above Bell Pool Island!!! Haha! ;0)

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