New signs on the Wye

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:48 pm

Hi Strad, the quote in my last post is taken from the Wye Navigation Order 2002. I suppose technically it was created by the government rather than with any real Royal input although that is moot.

The point about the banks is that, despite any historic use which might have included what we consider to be the banks, the Order defines the banks as those things which contain the river. Other historic uses are extinguished by the Order. I understand these banks to be the vertical bits up until the water spills onto the flood plain. You may recall a notice on the right bank above SY which 'prohibits' use of the gravel beach. I think the Order is referring to this as being allowed to be used under the Order in the definition provided.

The Order is wordy but not unmanagably so.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by dougoutcanoe » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:14 pm

Jim Pullen wrote:
dougoutcanoe wrote:Apparently the Wye and Usk Foundation had made 300 hundred of the signs I had complained about. We all know their intentions are to rid the rivers of canoeists by foul means or fair.
They must have wasted a fortune on these signs. They look like the metal ones used as road signs so must cost a fair bit. If you said £50 each - that's £15k!
They were proper signs made to traffic sign standards but not reflective but they made them small enough to NOT require planning permission. They were approx 1 foot by 2 feet on posts 3 feet tall.

I hope they did waste a lot of money. I also hope that they will be pursued for breach of copyright and ignoring the act of navigation is an illegal act on their part. The Wye and Usk Foundation clearly consider themselves above the law.

There is a Wye Navigation Advisory Committe, public meeting on the 23rd of November (I don't know time and location) where this issue is on the agenda. Can you attend to be the voice of canoeists go to this link for more details and how to register, http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/ho ... 38195.aspx ? A Canoe England representative will be in attendance.

Doug

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by dougoutcanoe » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:46 pm

I have just found this in the minutes from Enviroment Agency, Wye Navigation Advisory Committee, minutes of the meeting held on 10 November 2010

It is quite alarming that the Wye and Usk Foundation may take over responsibility for the Wye Navigation.

231 THE PROPOSED APPLICATION TO GOVERNMENT FOR MANAGEMENT OF THE RIVER WYE BY ANGLERS

231.1 Mr Gardiner proposed the agenda item after hearing/reading recent news items on the local radio and in the local press. Dr Marsh-Smith explained that Environment Agency is currently the regulator and provider of fishery services. The proposal is for the Wye and Usk Foundation to take over the management of the fisheries and wildlife as outlined in a letter sent to Defra. He explained that since 1 April 2010 there were now two operating regions (Midlands and Wales) for the Wye catchment which he asserted were adding to the problems. Dr Marsh-Smith referred to the River Tweed as a fine example of where the proposed approach is working. Mr Dereham clarified that local landowners were not involved with these proposals. Mr Darling added that he was a co-author of the letter, and he felt it was also an opportunity to take on the work that the limited number of bailiffs do.
ACTION: Dr Marsh-Smith to provide the members with a copy of the letter sent to Defra.

This must be stopped due to their extremely biased intentions.

Doug.

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quicky
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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by quicky » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:24 pm

IS it best to contact the EA and DEFRA on that one Doug?

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by dougoutcanoe » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:39 pm

quicky wrote:IS it best to contact the EA and DEFRA on that one Doug?
I think that contacting both organisations and drum up any other support through MP's, Canoe England, etc.

Doug

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by twopigs » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:21 pm

dougoutcanoe wrote: There is a Wye Navigation Advisory Committe, public meeting on the 23rd of November (I don't know time and location) where this issue is on the agenda. Can you attend to be the voice of canoeists go to this link for more details and how to register, http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/ho ... 38195.aspx ? A Canoe England representative will be in attendance.

Doug
Next meeting 10.00 am Wednesday 23 November at The Inn on the Wye, Kerne Bridge - so I am informed by the EA.
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by twopigs » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:36 am

There was an Information Paper submitted by the Environment Agency to the Wye Navigation Advisory Committee on the subject of these signs at the recent meeting.

Quote

"However, a misunderstanding around the requirements for logos to be used as a condition of the funding and over the correct wording to provide appropriate guidance to canoeists meant that the signs produced needed to be removed.

CURRENT POSITION

We have worked with WUF to remove these signs, we are currently considering, with the help of our legal advisors, if there is a short form of words which will fit on such a sign, which will provide the desired guidance to navigators."

End quote.
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by dougoutcanoe » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:09 pm

We need no signs.
The Navigation Act includes the incidental and reasonable use of the river banks. As that is the law why diminish it?

So why do the fishy folk want to keep us off the banks? I think it is the old game of, "it's mine and you cannot use it!" the selfish law breaking by landowners and fisheries continues.

Get writing to Dane Broomfield at the Environment Agency, dane.broomfield@environment-agency.gov.uk

If WUF put signs up they must point out that the Act states, "the incidental and reasonable use of the river banks is part of the Act"

It cannot be any less.

Doug

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Adrian Cooper
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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Adrian Cooper » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:52 pm

Wye navigation Order 2000 wrote:“bank” means so much of any bank, wall, embankment, fence, wharf, quay or other feature (whether natural or artificial) as confines the waters of the rivers up to the level and the point of their overspill into the flood plain of the rivers
I am struggling to find the "reasonable use of the banks" except in an emergency.
(b)in a manner liable to injure or endanger persons, other vessels, the bed or banks of the principal rivers or any structure or installation in or beside the principal rivers; or
(c)in a manner which does not show reasonable consideration for persons and property in, upon or about the principal rivers and their banks,
shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.(2) In any proceedings under paragraph (1)(b), it shall be a defence for the person charged to prove that the action complained of was done in an emergency and that in all the circumstances the course of action taken was reasonable.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Chalky723 » Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:14 pm

Exactly, the previous example of having lunch doesn't really cut it...

C
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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by chrism » Thu Dec 15, 2011 1:52 am

You're missing this bit in section 2:
“the principal rivers” means—
(a)that part of the river Wye from the downstream face of Bigsweir Bridge (reference point SO 538051) to Hay Town Bridge (reference point SO 228426); and
(b)that part of the river Lugg from its confluence with the river Wye to Presteigne Town Bridge (reference point SO 316646),
and includes their beds and banks;
Which clarifies what is meant by section 9:
Members of the public shall have the right to navigate and use the principal rivers.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:37 am

Was that in response to me?

I posted the definition of a 'bank' in my comment. I think it means the vertical bit, not the horizontal bit.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Garry » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:25 am

Adrian, I am no lawyer but could it be argued that in the definition of bank you quote i.e.:-

bank” means so much of any bank, wall, embankment, fence, wharf, quay or other feature (whether natural or artificial) as confines the waters of the rivers up to the level and the point of their overspill into the flood plain of the rivers;

the bit that says "up to the level and the point of their overspill into the flood plain of the rivers" means that the bank actually extends beyond the vertical bit along the horizontal bit to a point at which the flood level reaches? i.e. you can get out onto the bank as long as its normal flood plain horizontal bits?

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:32 am

Are you suggesting two flood plains? A low one for normal floods when the river is 'overflowing' and a higher one for bigger floods when people might suggest the river is 'flooding'. Sorry, it's sounding a bit tenuous.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by dougoutcanoe » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:32 pm

The point where the river starts to reach the flood plain is the point where the river starts to move horizontally across such land that is not part of the river bank. This will vary with location along the river. At each and every place along the river the flood line will be easy to define (until the barristers get at it!).

In many places along the R.Wye the bank is clearly defined as being below any predominantly level areas and would include shingle, sand, mud and grassed steep areas below that.

If WUF and other organisations want to put signs up they should only be allowed at the point of flood level and should not claim exclusivity of the bank below the flood line.

It is ludicrous that Fishy Folk could suggest and make it a legal point that canoeists and other river users can only stop for rests or otherwise enjoy their day on the river at the very few access points. The spacing of these is interesting, if you consider the mileages involved for a beginner, some are acceptable but Hereford to Ross for example is 28miles (28miles without a break would make many an experienced canoeist wince.)

I have been told by a private bailiff that the only places a canoeist can stop is, at the agreed access and egress points. This is what they and the WUF believe, which was clearly demonstrated on the signs posted and now removed.

WUF have this on their website: Access and Egress points (for getting in and out of the river)have been agreed with owners and are chosen to avoid conflict with locals and wildlife. You run the risk of alienating owners or damaging/scaring wildlife if you decide to enter or leave at sites other than those designated. PLEASE STICK TO THE AGREED ENTRY & EXIT PLACES
Agreed access and egress places are for getting onto and off the river, from and to a public right of way. These agreed places may be stopped at on ones journey along a public navigation but cannot be used to exclude all other possible stopping places. It is agreed that stopping, where it is safe to do so, on a public right of way with the exception of motorways and a few other high speed roads, is a legitimate action.

The attitude of WUF and others is to exclude the legitimate users of a public navigation or to make it so unpleasant that the water user goes elsewhere.

Doug

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by Big Henry » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:30 am

chrism wrote:You're missing this bit in section 2:
“the principal rivers” means—
(a)that part of the river Wye from the downstream face of Bigsweir Bridge (reference point SO 538051) to Hay Town Bridge (reference point SO 228426); and
(b)that part of the river Lugg from its confluence with the river Wye to Presteigne Town Bridge (reference point SO 316646),
and includes their beds and banks;
Which clarifies what is meant by section 9:
Members of the public shall have the right to navigate and use the principal rivers.
Does this definition of a river that includes beds and banks refer to all rivers, or just the Wye and Lugg between the stated points? If it does, then setting up safety or portaging a lot of rapids would be included in the rights of access described by Rev Caffyn.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by chrism » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:57 am

Big Henry wrote:Does this definition of a river that includes beds and banks refer to all rivers, or just the Wye and Lugg between the stated points? If it does, then setting up safety or portaging a lot of rapids would be included in the rights of access described by Rev Caffyn.
That comes from the Wye and Lugg navigation act, so very specific to that.

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Re: New signs on the Wye

Post by morsey » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:25 pm

Brecon Beacons National Park says the WUF signs along the Usk are unauthorised and they have several enforcement investigations under way.

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