is it just me (lee valley)

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Kayak-Bloke
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Kayak-Bloke » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:01 pm

I should have said it not as high in terms of drop, gradient is of course drop over distance so it may actually be nearly as steep in some sections. the water certianly seemaed to be moving a bit quicker and there was more room to get around with bigger eddies. maybe the pumps just shift more water.

Gary
Are the eddies as confused? Read as; are the eddies as mental as the ones at CIWW...?

Nige

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by janet brown » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:57 pm

As a club paying for exclusive use of Nene in Feb 2009, we were charged around £60 per hour for the pumps.

CIWW is limited to 150 people maximum: slightly different splitting the cost of pumps between 150 than 20!

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by jmmoxon » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:35 pm

There was a slight difference in cost - £13m for Cardiff, £31m for Lee Valley...

Mike

(Tees only cost £2m in 1995, but £5m budgeted for upgrade)
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Jon_Brown » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:44 pm

The pumps are bigger and fire direct down the course on the legacy so you don't lose the energy like you do at cardiff where it bounces off the wall and the pumps are set back under the walkway.

I should have said it not as high in terms of drop, gradient is of course drop over distance so it may actually be nearly as steep in some sections. the water certianly seemaed to be moving a bit quicker and there was more room to get around with bigger eddies. maybe the pumps just shift more water.

Gary
Surely if CIWW at max pumps out 16m3 compared to LV's max of 15m3 / 10.5m3 then it would be way more powerful running at full power than the legacy, after all it's an extra 5.5 tonnes of water per second (as said over a longer run but with greater drop giving similar gradient) but as it usually runs at only 50% (again possibly LV will also be throttled back to be more economical in the future?). I also struggle to grasp how the Oly course can be wider/steeper and deeper with potentially less water flowing down it, is it just that again LV is running at max/near max whereas CIWW runs at 50% capacity most of the time with the occasional 75% whizzing 12m3.
I'd be surprised if the direction of the pump's outlets make that much difference I can't say I've been smashed against the opposite wall as I've paddled past the outlets!

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by scottdog007 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:26 am

My friend went to book the kayaking on their website but it wouldn´t work properly and so they phoned up and was told the website for the kayak booking had just been removed as they have to re-evaluate Health and Safety. And as someone has said, already a person (I think slalom paddler) broke their leg some weeks ago.

I have to point out on 4 pumps this is a serious course and a swim is going to be a big swim and will be dangerious with rafters and other paddlers around. Yesterday I went to HPP and I would say Lee Valley WW is at least double the complexity, and double the speed of anything you have at HPP. To be honest I actually can´t see them running Lee Valley with rafters and kayakers on at the same time.

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by scottdog007 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:49 am

I live near Lee Valley WW and yesterday I spent a tank of petrol going to HPP for a 3 hour session costing £8, plus over 4 hours driving. So for me I would definately pay £20 for a couple of hours at Lee Valley and save all that money on petrol and there must be loads of London clubs and London people who think the same. I can imagine many clubs are queuing up to book the course for an hour or 2. I do not see £20 as being expensive at all for a top quality course.

Lee Valley is a commercial business, and they will need to make money, rafting will pay and all the London companies with their corporate team building ideas will jump to go to a high class venue. The kayaking will help them to suppliment the costs, but will still come second to rafting where most of the money will come from.

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Kayak-Bloke » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:06 pm

There was a slight difference in cost - £13m for Cardiff, £31m for Lee Valley...
Yeah but you could build a concrete shoe box in the London area and charge people £100K to put their shoes in it. It doesn't mean it's value for money...

It stands to reason if you swim there it has the potential to be serious. People (rafters and kayakers) have been hospitialised following a visit to CIWW. Lee Valley looks way big in comparison. Double your potential for pain...

It would seem the bottom line (reading from above posts) is:
If you live local it will be overall cheaper than travelling to paddle a course miles away.
If you don't you'd have to be seriously bored with your 'local' course.....

:-)

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by garya » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:21 pm

Kayak-Bloke wrote:
I should have said it not as high in terms of drop, gradient is of course drop over distance so it may actually be nearly as steep in some sections. the water certianly seemaed to be moving a bit quicker and there was more room to get around with bigger eddies. maybe the pumps just shift more water.

Gary
Are the eddies as confused? Read as; are the eddies as mental as the ones at CIWW...?

Nige
Mostly yes, they are quike quick and will reculate you straight back into the flow. They do not surge or pulse as much as the eddies on CIWW. On the larger ones you can find a sweet spot in the middle that will just rotate you on the spot at quite a speed making you feel a bit dizzy and sick. There are also steps at the back of these big eddies, but the sides are a bit steep to launch from and it is tricky to get in at the steps without help if you want to re-run a section like HPP

There are some eddies the rafts can't make or stick based on thier size and location, this colud offer a safe haven for kayakers to stay out of the way of them and let them pass.

Gary

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by garya » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:27 pm

jmmoxon wrote:There was a slight difference in cost - £13m for Cardiff, £31m for Lee Valley...

Mike

(Tees only cost £2m in 1995, but £5m budgeted for upgrade)
The ODA and Olympics (london council tax payers mainly) paid for the course constraution so Lee Valley park authority got it virtully morgage free. They only need to cover operating costs but this is still a fairly hefty sum for a pumped course.

Gary

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by garya » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:36 pm

Jon_Brown wrote:
The pumps are bigger and fire direct down the course on the legacy so you don't lose the energy like you do at cardiff where it bounces off the wall and the pumps are set back under the walkway.

I should have said it not as high in terms of drop, gradient is of course drop over distance so it may actually be nearly as steep in some sections. the water certianly seemaed to be moving a bit quicker and there was more room to get around with bigger eddies. maybe the pumps just shift more water.

Gary
Surely if CIWW at max pumps out 16m3 compared to LV's max of 15m3 / 10.5m3 then it would be way more powerful running at full power than the legacy, after all it's an extra 5.5 tonnes of water per second (as said over a longer run but with greater drop giving similar gradient) but as it usually runs at only 50% (again possibly LV will also be throttled back to be more economical in the future?). I also struggle to grasp how the Oly course can be wider/steeper and deeper with potentially less water flowing down it, is it just that again LV is running at max/near max whereas CIWW runs at 50% capacity most of the time with the occasional 75% whizzing 12m3.
I'd be surprised if the direction of the pump's outlets make that much difference I can't say I've been smashed against the opposite wall as I've paddled past the outlets!
I was comparing the legacy course with CIWW, the legacy course is on par with CIWW if not a little easier, the water seemed a little quicker in places but this may have been due to block placement which focused the jet and drops. it has better eddis and some wave features which will make it a good class 2 training venue. The satff are also tuning a coulpe of play fetures on this coures i have heard that it is envisaged this will predominatly be used by kayakers and rafts with younger school children on it.

This course may be more favored by most play boaters as you will have no rafts most of the time so you will be able to queue in the eddies more safely while waiting.

The main course is like 3/4 the size of CIWW and very impressive, Think of narrower small scall version of the right side of L'Argentiere but with the same clear water and you will get the picture. It is very fast and continuous with at least three checky drops the are twice the height of the main wave on the bend at CIWW


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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by garya » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:54 pm

Scumbag_Scout wrote:
Antony F wrote:So, energy required to raise the water from the bottom of the course to the top is going to be equal to the height gain multiplied by the weight of the water, so power required is the product of the flow rate, density of the water, acceleration due to gravity and height gain. The Olympic course runs at 13 cumecs and drops 5.5m, so assume the water is pumped over 6 metres. Assume a (pretty conservative) 60% efficiency for the system gives 1.275 MW (Mega Watts). So to run the course for an hour - thats 1275 kWh, and assuming a (domestic) energy price of about 12 pence/kWh gives £153 an hour in electricity.

I think that's a pretty conservative figure too... A similar calculation for the legacy course comes out at about £41 an hour.
I believe there is a fair bit of expense in making sure they have guaranteed power....
They have a couple of huge generators that provide local backup power in the event of the main grid going down, they also have an extra fith pump (thats one more that CIWW) that is left idle as a backup in case one of the other pumps goes offline. if they fired up all five I have heard figures of between 18- 20 cumecs. I don't think the sart pool would be able to hold the water for this.

It draws so much power it blew a load of stuff in itch on the first couple of goes as wellas interfering with the PA system, but they are fixing that now.

They apsolutely will not let anything go down on the day of the games itself so there is a lot of redundancy built into the design.

Gary

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Saint Matt » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:45 pm

This kind of thread really annoys me... you're bitching about the price without knowing what you are paying for... by all means if you go on the course and decide it's not worth what you paid, then complain away, but really speculative complaining???

2 1/2 hours on the course knackered me out (admittedly immediatlely after a weekend of boating). If you live in London then you'd save that cost on petrol. If you live in Wales, then what the f*ck are you doing driving to London to go boating??

Wait till you've paddled it then you get to start complaining.

Matt

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Jon_Brown » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:45 pm

A simple way to subsidise your £10/hour would be to fill your boat up with water then sneak it out, it is after all fed from an aquifer so stick it in1 litre bottles and flog it for 99p. Even better market it as Olympic water and sell it for £10?

Undoubtedly those nasty rafting stag parties may have peed in it so don’t drink it yourself.

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Randy Fandango » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:15 pm

Jon_Brown wrote:A simple way to subsidise your £10/hour would be to fill your boat up with water then sneak it out, it is after all fed from an aquifer so stick it in1 litre bottles and flog it for 99p. Even better market it as Olympic water and sell it for £10?

Undoubtedly those nasty rafting stag parties may have peed in it so don’t drink it yourself.
Since apparently its lightly chlorinated I'm not sure this plan is such a winner.... :-)
Giles

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Randy Fandango » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:29 pm

Antony F wrote: Reading through this thread, it sounds like the majority of people want to get overcharged?! Do you really?
Good Lord -- I don't think so :-)
I doubt anyone really wishes to pay a fortune -- certainly I don't.
I for one was merely pointing out that while it may seem an expensive venue to paddle, for many paddlers its still cheaper (and obviously vastly more convenient) than a trip to one of the other man-made courses.
How you jump from that to us wanting to pay more I'm not really sure.
Antony F wrote:I can see the argument about smaller fuel bills making people happier to pay a bit more - but that is pretty irrelevant to whether £10 an hour is a justifiable amount for Lee Valley to charge, and that, to me at least, is the critical issue.
Interesting you think its irrelevant to the pricing structure that people will be paying smaller fuel bills to get there when among many other considerations, I should imagine this is certainly one of the contributing factors that went into the creation of the pricing structure as it currently stands.
They will be well aware how much paddlers are prepared to pay for a day out at a man-made course including how much time people commit to the activity and how far they are prepared to travel to get there and what that costs in time and money.
Giles

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by chrism » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:11 pm

Randy Fandango wrote:for many paddlers its still cheaper (and obviously vastly more convenient) than a trip to one of the other man-made courses.
If they're unsociable, maybe. With a decently economical car, even travelling from Broxbourne to Cardiff that's only £55 for fuel and tolls - if you've got one mate it's cheaper to paddle for 4 hours at CIWW. Of course if you don't live right next door to LVWW the economics of paddling with a mate (or maybe 3) are likely to favour CIWW even more. Convenience is a separate issue, but it's not necessarily cheaper even for locals.

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Alec Ferris » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:58 pm

Convenience is also an issue. I currently can't afford to take more than a day off at a time on account of A Levels. Agreed though, this is actually more expensive in terms of £/hours on the water than a trip to Wales or Dartmoor, even if you're travelling from Hertfordshire.
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Randy Fandango » Fri Apr 29, 2011 11:44 pm

chrism wrote:
Randy Fandango wrote:for many paddlers its still cheaper (and obviously vastly more convenient) than a trip to one of the other man-made courses.
If they're unsociable, maybe. With a decently economical car, even travelling from Broxbourne to Cardiff that's only £55 for fuel and tolls - if you've got one mate it's cheaper to paddle for 4 hours at CIWW. Of course if you don't live right next door to LVWW the economics of paddling with a mate (or maybe 3) are likely to favour CIWW even more. Convenience is a separate issue, but it's not necessarily cheaper even for locals.
Ah but cost doesn't just come in terms of pounds sterling does it.
Coming from a distance away -- as is the case for the huge amount of London based boaters -- at trip to HPP or Cardiff involves realistically a whole day away. Thats a significant cost to lots of people in terms of the amount of time they have available for boating. For me its also a significant cost in terms of negotiated time in the heady world of married-with-children-politics.
Let's not forget that a whole day's outing (for most boaters) also involves a fair amount of expenditure in Ginsters, Haribo, MacD's, Little Thieves, etc. Generally a whole day away will mean roughly three meals plus drinks and crappy unhealthy snacks for everyone in the car at extortionate service station prices.
When you can paddle close to your own doorstep none of this is the case.
And personally speaking, the last car I had that would get me from London to Cardiff and back on £50.00 worth of fuel was a 1990 Vauxhall Cavalier -- and that was only because fuel was about 75p a litre when I had it :-)
Giles

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by twopigs » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:15 am

Randy Fandango wrote: ............. married-with-children-politics .........
Giles
I understand "married" politics - SWMBO is a Level 3 kayak and a Level 3 open canoe coach..... So long as I do the heavy lifting I get to go boating with her! Been to the Alps 3 times with her, once to Scotland with her, (another trip together looming end of May, once to Canada with her...... We're hoping for Scandinavia one year together. Is that why I get so many offers to go on wife-swap?

"children" - other people have them don't they?

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by DaveBland » Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:48 pm

Married with children politics. There is no greater paddling skill than this all you singles out there running the hard stuff still have your true gd6+ challenger to come.
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by BaldockBabe » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:24 pm

scottdog007 wrote:My friend went to book the kayaking on their website but it wouldn´t work properly and so they phoned up and was told the website for the kayak booking had just been removed as they have to re-evaluate Health and Safety. And as someone has said, already a person (I think slalom paddler) broke their leg some weeks ago..
Yup, it was, it was me. Still in a cast...

However, I would say that it is a good resource for paddlers in the area and I don't think you would be paddling for linger than a hour at a time if you are paddling continously. Though I would not be keen to take intermediate paddlers there I would make the longer journey to HPP which I think is safer if you swim...

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by waynebrown » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:27 pm

you clearly havent seen me paddle then, take today for instance, i was at ciww all day, got off the water only once for a pee and to empty the kayak of the little water that had gotten into the boat, i have a lot of stamina, i cartwheel, loop you name it all day long without fatigue

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by SimonMW » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:30 pm

you clearly havent seen me paddle then, take today for instance, I was at ciww all day, got off the water only once for a pee and to empty the kayak of the little water that had gotten into the boat, I have a lot of stamina, I cartwheel, loop you name it all day long without fatigue
If anyone is in doubt, I can definitely back up this claim with evidence! :)

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Sickboy » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:56 pm

waynebrown wrote:you clearly havent seen me paddle then, take today for instance, I was at ciww all day, got off the water only once for a pee and to empty the kayak of the little water that had gotten into the boat, I have a lot of stamina, I cartwheel, loop you name it all day long without fatigue
Sounds like Cardiff's your place, handy as you live there as well.
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by waynebrown » Sun May 01, 2011 12:45 am

i love ciww, but its also nice to branch out and paddle elsewhere once in a blue moon but i still think that the course is still asking paddlers to pay an unreasonable £10 per hour, id be happy to pay £10 - £20 for the day just not £60 - £80 as it would cost me because i would want to paddle for the entire day and the legacy course doesnt interest me

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by morsey » Sun May 01, 2011 1:08 am

Wayne, I do not think anyone is saying that people cannot paddle all day long, they are saying that the majority would not be on the water for more than an hour or two, and as such the pricing for Landoon is probably reflective of this. I agree that to paddle all day would be chuff expensive on the lee valley course, at Cardiff the current pricing structure is amazingly good value for money. Friday eve 8, 10 or 12cumecs two hours £10 = Bargain, Everyone is happy with that, even on eight cumecs or six on the Wednesdays everyone is happy. £10 for two hours versus £10 for one hour!! Not that much difference really. Cardiff at the weekends, however, gives uber value for money. Friday just gone fours hours 8 cumecs, two hour pumps off (afternoon tea in anybodies book) then 12 cumecs for two hours, six hours boating on a bank holiday for a tenner!

CIWW and Lee Valley are different entities. I lived in Canterbury for a good few years and white water paddling changed from "whenever you want" to "whenever you had two days free" and then to "I might as well just go to the alps", because the journey time across England was significant. For paddlers in the South East the Lee Valley course is about to have a massive influence on their white water paddling, which is a good thing. :-)

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Randy Fandango » Sun May 01, 2011 7:57 am

waynebrown wrote: for those of us who do like to paddle for the entire day it is really expensive
Agreed.
But personally I generally only paddle "all day" when I travel to one of the existing courses because it's taken so long and so much effort to get there it would seem a bit daft to do otherwise.
I'd be perfectly happy to travel half an hour, paddle for an hour each on the legacy course and the Olympic course (with a break for a bite and a drink in between) then half an hour home -- all for 15 quid plus a few quid for fuel and food.
Despite the Vorderman style maths exhibited earlier in this thread, there really is no way of doing this for me (or any other SE boater) when going to the existing courses :-)
Giles

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Grumpy old man » Sun May 01, 2011 9:01 am

Hi
You'll all be buying slalom boats next, I thought you all were river boaters ;-)

Grumpy
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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by nene whitewater » Sun May 01, 2011 3:22 pm

janet brown wrote:As a club paying for exclusive use of Nene in Feb 2009, we were charged around £60 per hour for the pumps.

CIWW is limited to 150 people maximum: slightly different splitting the cost of pumps between 150 than 20!

Janet
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but just to put down the facts:
1. The maximum number of kayaks at the Nene is 100, not 20.
2. The rate we charge clubs for exclusive use is the total charge, and so long as that club has adequate supervision, then it can bring along as many members as it likes, up to the max limit of 100. The more members it brings, the cheaper the individual cost becomes.

Nene Whitewater Centre

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Re: is it just me (lee valley)

Post by Randy Fandango » Sun May 01, 2011 3:38 pm

nene whitewater wrote:
janet brown wrote:As a club paying for exclusive use of Nene in Feb 2009, we were charged around £60 per hour for the pumps.

CIWW is limited to 150 people maximum: slightly different splitting the cost of pumps between 150 than 20!

Janet
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but just to put down the facts:
1. The maximum number of kayaks at the Nene is 100, not 20.
2. The rate we charge clubs for exclusive use is the total charge, and so long as that club has adequate supervision, then it can bring along as many members as it likes, up to the max limit of 100. The more members it brings, the cheaper the individual cost becomes.

Nene Whitewater Centre
I think if you hunt back here somewhere it says that the Olympic course is limited to 20 paddlers at a time and that's where the idea of having to split costs by 20 comes from.
I haven't the will to look back myself but I have a feeling that figure of 20 actually referred to how many boaters could be on the course when it also had rafts on.
Presumably in fact having an exclusive £400.00 booking of the Olympic course would mean no rafts and therefore I would imagine that 20 person limit would then rise significantly.
Giles

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