Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Inland paddling
neil.farmer
Posts: 178
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:25 pm
Location: Glasgow

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by neil.farmer »

Owen wrote:
neil.farmer wrote:The other thing to consider, and I am no expert here is who is ultimately responsible for organising club trips. Is there a decision making process as to how the club organising committee sets up trips? How do they know that "x, y or z" is capable of leading the trip safely?

A "bit of paper from the NGB" is the easiest way to demonstrate that......Why not ask your NGB coaching staff for advice & backup?
If x, y or z wants to run trips for our club they can, if we don't think they're up to doing it on their own we buddy them with someone who is.

I know some really crap BCU coaches, I know some really good ones as well, I also know some people with no papers at all but who are great at coaching. Your bit of paper doesn't demonstrate anything to us only your ability does. People who lead our trips are not some unknown stranger, we know them and regually paddle with them, therefore we know we can trust them.

Your point about "justify their decisions and actions" is the same for everyone, makes no difference whether they have a bit of paper or not. If someone's acted negligently or recklessly then they can be called to account if they haven't then they've nothing to fear. Too many people seem more worried about making sure their arse is covered than they do about helping people to get out paddling. A pity as the boggyman civil claims lawyers really aren't the all consuming ogre's most people seem to imagine.
Owen, I agree with a lot of what you say & in fact wish that it was the way things operated everywhere, with common sense! My comments related to Adrians post above & the dangers that pathway could lead to.

However, in our world, if a club choses to go with "non-ticketed leaders", the decision making process must be transparent & good, with a clear process for approval. Not just "I know he was a good paddler, he's ok". That is what the NGB awards offer us. There will always be "good", "bad", "average", "brilliant" & "how on earth did they achieve that qualification" coaches, the committees job is to make that decision you stated (pairing up), not use them, whatever..

The second question that would be asked is what are the committees experience/qualifications to make the initial decision, correctly. That is why I mentioned support from RCO's/LCO's.

It does seem like "covering your back", I agree that is sad, but living up to "best practice", the treadmill that we are now on just encourages that.... "well....., yes....., I know I wasn't following best practice..... but I thought....". Also, I'm not in a club & hold no awards, but as a teacher, if the school trip coach turned up without seatbelts, or too few seats, would I cancel the trip - yes, without a second though.

A big show of appreciation though to all those who jump these hoops to help others get out - a truy selfless job!
Neil Farmer (from mobile)

User avatar
Neptune
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:13 pm
Location: Doncaster
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Neptune »

[
b]neil.farmer wrote:[/b]

The other thing to consider, and I am no expert here is who is ultimately responsible for organising club trips. Is there a decision making process as to how the club organising committee sets up trips? How do they know that "x, y or z" is capable of leading the trip safely?

A "bit of paper from the NGB" is the easiest way to demonstrate that - ie x/y/z has qualified to lead people to x/y/z level & is/was opperating within current best practice (updates), so we were happy that (s)he was doing the right thing. Could you say the same about me (unqualified) leading one of your trips?

Sad & I know many people here don't like to acknowledge this, but in reality, if it goes wrong, the club committee/trip leader(s)/most experienced paddlers could end up having to justify their decisions & actions.

I am NOT an expert in this field, these are just my thought & experiences from past discussions. Why not ask your NGB coaching staff for advice & backup?
Like many people on UKRGB I know of paddlers that have all the coaching qualifcations and leadership awards, however just because they have these does not necessarily make them a good leader or competent paddler, even though the papers say they should be!!!

I know of two in particular who I would regard as 'ticket collectors'. They have both gone through the motions to get certified as soon as possible as coaches, four star leadership award(s) and to get their moderate water endorsment, but personally I would regard neither as a competent paddler or coach and certainly would not advise anyone to go on a trip lead by either.

On the other hand I know a number of paddlers who have no qualifications (NGB or otherwise) at all, but have paddled all over the world in some of the most demanding environments and conditions and would happily have them lead a trip anywhere knowing that they are more than capable of dealing with anything that is thrown at them.

Its all about making an informed decision and as Neil says, in reality, if it goes wrong, the club committee/trip leader(s)/most experienced paddlers could end up having to justify their decisions & actions.

Peter

User avatar
geyrfugl
Posts: 1271
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:57 pm
Location: Barnard Castle

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by geyrfugl »

To answer the original question - there are clubs who are affiliated to BCU who not only don't have level 3 coaches, but have rules forbidding coaching and do not want to know whether any member has any of the bits of paper (and yes, it probably does mean we pay capitation for people who are already BCU members, since we don't ask). We know who's competent and who isn't (or, we know that we don't know and treat accordingly) and, far, far more to the point, so do those people. I'd take someone who knew his/her limitations over someone who believed the bit of paper they'd got any time...

Andy

Owen
Posts: 2156
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:42 pm
Location: Nr Stirling
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Owen »

Ian Dallaway wrote: You can bolt on a 5star and an Advanced water endorsement to increase the remit to coaching on harder grade water. (similar to what the current L4 and L5 have).
Is that bolted onto a level 2/MWE or bolted onto a level 3?

twopigs
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by twopigs »

Owen wrote:
Ian Dallaway wrote: You can bolt on a 5star and an Advanced water endorsement to increase the remit to coaching on harder grade water. (similar to what the current L4 and L5 have).
Is that bolted onto a level 2/MWE or bolted onto a level 3?
As I don't think AWE has been released yet the answer has to be - we don't know yet!

Maybe the answer should be - Before you can do AWE you have to be UKCC L3....
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
James G
Posts: 182
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Ellesmere, Shropshire

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by James G »

Ian Dallaway wrote: You are totally incorrect!
OwenBurson wrote:Good answer Ian; fact not opinion.
In the course guide on the CE website under the heading "The Level 2 Remit" it states
A Level 2 Coach is trained and assessed to plan, deliver and review a series of four
coaching sessions, for paddlers who fall into the LTPD Paddlesport Start and/or Development stage.
This isn't something that I just made up (although apparently I may have made a mistake when I said 6 sessions). CE/BCU have stated how far the remit goes and has hence restricted it in terms of the number of sessions in a series and the level of development of the trainees. The progression of remit at L3 is probably most clearly explained on the Canoe Wales site, which states
The award progresses coaches from coaching progressive sessions of up to 6 consecutive sessions to developing Long Term Paddler Development and running annual coaching programmes.
I didn't base my comment on opinions, but on the statements made by the National Govering Bodies for our sport. Obviously all coaches can operate beyond their remit if they wish to, but it should be recognised that they are doing so. If a lot of coaches are choosing to ignore part of the remit, it seems likely that the remits of the awards as they stand are rather less than fit for purpose.

James G

User avatar
OwenBurson
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: Isle of Wight
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by OwenBurson »

I which case old L3s where trained to run no more than stand alone non progressive sessions as that is all they were trained to do and no reference was made to anything else. They have been operating out their remit for a long time. It was only at L5T that series of sessions and long term learning was discussed.

twopigs
Posts: 1339
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:55 pm
Location: Stroud & Cheltenham
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 8 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by twopigs »

OwenBurson wrote:I which case old L3s where trained to run no more than stand alone non progressive sessions as that is all they were trained to do and no reference was made to anything else. They have been operating out their remit for a long time. It was only at L5T that series of sessions and long term learning was discussed.
Damn - Phil Hadley didn't tell me that at the L3 training! I thought the training gave me an example of a session and if I could cover what the client wanted in a session I had to string sessions together until we got to the end point....... Actually I did that as a T2OC. I am so sorry I must apologise to all those folks I've coached.....
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

User avatar
Pete the kayaker
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Pete the kayaker »

OwenBurson wrote:I which case old L3s where trained to run no more than stand alone non progressive sessions as that is all they were trained to do and no reference was made to anything else. They have been operating out their remit for a long time. It was only at L5T that series of sessions and long term learning was discussed.
In which case I'm glad I didn't take my CL3 training with you as this element may have been overlooked ;)

From the Old BCU CL3 syllabus;
11 Plan projected coaching programmes for different levels of paddling groups over varied time scales eg
Beginners’ weekend course, one days proficiency test training, 6 x 1 day rolling course.
*Fringe Extremist*

Glyn B
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Glyn B »

Whatever happened to doing something because you enjoyed it? LTPD?

This is a simple sport/activity and the vast majority do not need massive ammounts of coaching to progress.

Ian Dallaway
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Cannock
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Ian Dallaway »

James G wrote:In the course guide on the CE website under the heading "The Level 2 Remit" it states
A Level 2 Coach is trained and assessed to plan, deliver and review a series of four
coaching sessions, for paddlers who fall into the LTPD Paddlesport Start and/or Development stage.
This isn't something that I just made up (although apparently I may have made a mistake when I said 6 sessions). CE/BCU have stated how far the remit goes and has hence restricted it in terms of the number of sessions in a series and the level of development of the trainees.

I didn't base my comment on opinions, but on the statements made by the National Govering Bodies for our sport. Obviously all coaches can operate beyond their remit if they wish to, but it should be recognised that they are doing so. If a lot of coaches are choosing to ignore part of the remit, it seems likely that the remits of the awards as they stand are rather less than fit for purpose.

James G
Hi James,
This series of sessions (beit 4 or 6) is to give a coaching progression to develop paddlers. You are building up from what you developed from the previous sessions and helping to underpin learning.

Then with the Plan-Do-Review process you can see where you are and look at the next series of sessions. You may plan a number of sessions at a time (these could be a number between 2 and 6 realistically) and run them. You will review them after each session and at the end of the series to see where to go next. Then plan the next few sessions.

From the coaches point of view, He has done a series of 4 sessions, then a series of 3 sessions, and finally a series of 2 to achieve the result. - lets say it was a 2star training course to prepare the candidate for assessment.

From the students point of view, he has done a series of 9 sessions to achieve the result. - he passed his 2star!

I don't see where anyone has overstepped their remit on the above example.

It would be near impossible to plan a series of 9 sessions in one go as you circumvent the plan-do-review process. It would become very coach centered on the later coaching sessions and not achieve the learning objectives. You would be unable to spend additional time on areas where the student may be having unforseen difficulty.

Hope this helps,
Ian

User avatar
Adrian Cooper
Posts: 9757
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:26 pm
Location: Buckinghamshire
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 17 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Ian Dallaway wrote:It would be near impossible to plan a series of 9 sessions in one go as you circumvent the plan-do-review process. It would become very coach centered on the later coaching sessions and not achieve the learning objectives. You would be unable to spend additional time on areas where the student may be having unforseen difficulty.
So how does a level 3 plan an annual programme of sessions?

Ian Dallaway
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Cannock
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Ian Dallaway »

Adrian Cooper wrote:So how does a level 3 plan an annual programme of sessions?
Easy - the L3 isn't planning an annual programme of sessions. He's planning an annual programme. There is a difference!!!

He/she certainly won't be writing lots of session plans in advance for the whole year.
Ian

User avatar
OwenBurson
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: Isle of Wight
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by OwenBurson »

Pete the kayaker wrote:
OwenBurson wrote:I which case old L3s where trained to run no more than stand alone non progressive sessions as that is all they were trained to do and no reference was made to anything else. They have been operating out their remit for a long time. It was only at L5T that series of sessions and long term learning was discussed.
In which case I'm glad I didn't take my CL3 training with you as this element may have been overlooked ;)

From the Old BCU CL3 syllabus;
11 Plan projected coaching programmes for different levels of paddling groups over varied time scales eg
Beginners’ weekend course, one days proficiency test training, 6 x 1 day rolling course.
If you spent much time on this then you would have missed out a great deal! There simply was not enough time to run training on session planning ~ I always focussed my time on coaching, leadership, specific discipline knowledge, personal skills, managing other coaches (L2 and such like) and a vast range of other pragmatic and useful topics.

I'm very glad you approve of the large amount of time spent on session planning and the paperwork aspects of the new courses! ;-)

User avatar
Pete the kayaker
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:04 pm

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Pete the kayaker »

OwenBurson wrote:If you spent much time on this then you would have missed out a great deal! There simply was not enough time to run training on session planning ~ I always focussed my time on coaching, leadership, specific discipline knowledge, personal skills, managing other coaches (L2 and such like) and a vast range of other pragmatic and useful topics.
Fair point, however some people put more emphasis on this than others. It also varied in importance to CL3 trainees .
OwenBurson wrote:I'm very glad you approve of the large amount of time spent on session planning and the paperwork aspects of the new courses! ;-)
You appear to be conflating session planning and paperwork.
*Fringe Extremist*

garya
Posts: 1435
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:04 am
Location: Enfield, Lee Valley, North London
Has thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by garya »

I belive that the idaea of an anual program is designed fit more around the area of competative sport where you may be training towards an annual competion or major championship.

Some of the Team GB athletes would be looking at 2 or 4 year programs, with peaks and recovery periods in their perfomance and fitness worked around selection and competions. The program would incorperate cross trianing in other areas to enhance performance such as general gym and diet as well as sports psychology

I base this belive on a look at the additional CDP modules being offered for both the Level 3 and 2 which are very much biased towards competion canoeing. the level 3 for instance has 2 x 6 hour intermidiate modules on optimising fitness for performance.

A UKCC Level 2 would have had

4 days level 1 coach training
4 days level 2 coach training
1 day level 2 coach assesment

2 days 4 star leader training
2 days 4 star leader assesment
2 days WWSR

2 days MWE ( most providors are now switching to two day training to provide the time to deliver a quality produact and outcome)
1 day MWE assement

That's a lot of contact time with providors and constant assesment so you ned to be up to scratch to get through it and there are mutiple points at witch you can fail to progress. You also get lots more input to help you become a better coach.

Experiance and time on the water are still required to become a better coach and consildate the training recived, The UKCC level 2 will still have recivied way more formal training days the the old L3 with 2 days traing plus 2 days assesment

Gary A

Ian Dallaway
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 11:07 am
Location: Cannock
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Ian Dallaway »

OwenBurson wrote:If you spent much time on this then you would have missed out a great deal! There simply was not enough time to run training on session planning ~ I always focussed my time on coaching, leadership, specific discipline knowledge, personal skills, managing other coaches (L2 and such like) and a vast range of other pragmatic and useful topics.

I'm very glad you approve of the large amount of time spent on session planning and the paperwork aspects of the new courses! ;-)
Owen - You're spot on!

It is really encouraging to see how much interest there is in session planning and running progressive sessions. This is a real endorsement of just how good the new coaching courses are.
Ian

User avatar
foxy
Posts: 344
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:26 pm
Location: In the middle

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by foxy »

twopigs wrote:
OwenBurson wrote:I which case old L3s where trained to run no more than stand alone non progressive sessions as that is all they were trained to do and no reference was made to anything else. They have been operating out their remit for a long time. It was only at L5T that series of sessions and long term learning was discussed.
Damn - Phil Hadley didn't tell me that at the L3 training! I thought the training gave me an example of a session and if I could cover what the client wanted in a session I had to string sessions together until we got to the end point....... Actually I did that as a T2OC. I am so sorry I must apologise to all those folks I've coached.....
Whoa! How did all this suddenly become my fault!


Just a point about why do the 'new' L3 if it doesn't give you much more in the way of remit - it will help you become a better coach!
L5 doesn't give you much in the way of increased remit, OK, you can work to becoming a 5 star assessor, but you don't get much else - you do increase your awareness of the coaching process and the development sets you up to become a better coach. Better coaches - better paddlers, simples!
Nemo Malus Felix

User avatar
OwenBurson
Posts: 507
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:27 pm
Location: Isle of Wight
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by OwenBurson »

Ian Dallaway wrote:
OwenBurson wrote:If you spent much time on this then you would have missed out a great deal! There simply was not enough time to run training on session planning ~ I always focussed my time on coaching, leadership, specific discipline knowledge, personal skills, managing other coaches (L2 and such like) and a vast range of other pragmatic and useful topics.

I'm very glad you approve of the large amount of time spent on session planning and the paperwork aspects of the new courses! ;-)
Owen - You're spot on!

It is really encouraging to see how much interest there is in session planning and running progressive sessions. This is a real endorsement of just how good the new coaching courses are.
What we've done is taken all the best bits of the old scheme and added to it to give more time with session planning, long term learning and a greater depth of understanding of the coaching process in order to better develop our paddlers.

User avatar
peakfreak
Posts: 1530
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:03 pm
Location: Ooop Norf
Contact:

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by peakfreak »

Just to add more confusion.
A coach is a coach, not a leader. Aren't the two poles apart in that L1/2 coaches are sheltered water coaching only qualifications?
MWE with 4* leader is the qualification for moving water leading.

I am probably wrong here but my brain hurts.

User avatar
Tony Aiuto
Posts: 428
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:41 pm
Location: Glos/Ox/Wilts

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Tony Aiuto »

Ian Dallaway wrote: It would be near impossible to plan a series of 9 sessions in one go as you circumvent the plan-do-review process. It would become very coach centered on the later coaching sessions and not achieve the learning objectives. You would be unable to spend additional time on areas where the student may be having unforseen difficulty.
I plan more than 9 sessions every year,(for my school) and I'm able to achieve my learning objectives even with students that have learning difficulties, so I think your statement falls a little flat. I do this without the benefit of having done the UKCC L2. I do have the old scheme L3K.

Just to clearify, by sessions I mean 4 separate lessons within each.
Tony Aiuto

Colin C
Posts: 740
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:19 pm
Location: Bothwell
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Colin C »

Tony Aiuto wrote:I plan more than 9 sessions every year,(for my school) and I'm able to achieve my learning objectives even with students that have learning difficulties, so I think your statement falls a little flat. I do this without the benefit of having done the UKCC L2. I do have the old scheme L3K.

Tony, how on earth can you do that being an old school coach, did you not know you don't have the skills for it.

Regards
Another old school coach

Glyn B
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:29 pm

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Glyn B »

Colin C wrote: Tony, how on earth can you do that being an old school coach, did you not know you don't have the skills for it.

Regards
Another old school coach
I'm surprised there are any paddlers out there at all given the inadequacies of the old system.
After all it was reasonably priced, accessible and didnt require huge ammounts of paperwork so it couldn't have been any use could it.

Has anybody noticed an improvement in paddling standards as a result of the new scheme?

Yet another OSC

User avatar
Robert Craig
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:55 pm
Location: Glasgow
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Do BCU affiliated Clubs need a Level 3 coach?

Post by Robert Craig »

Don't worry - Red Card to Red Tape will be the new dawn, or the new wee boy commenting on the Emperor's new clothes.

Post Reply

Return to “Whitewater and Touring”