A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

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NickH
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A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by NickH » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:13 pm

Quite frankly I'm inclined to agree with them....

This was the Severn bore on Sunday, look out for the blue rpm, and the chap in the black and red boat. Truly hilarious.

Click.

Thoughts...?

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:16 pm

Well he did get his Dagger out...

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by StoneWeasel » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:25 pm

NickH wrote:Thoughts...?


They need to lean forward more, work there rails better and stay in control.

The bore is normally carnage though, if it is not an out of control goat boater it is an out of control fridge or dead sheep.

I do wish paddlers would stick to surf ettiquette when surfing in the ocean though or stay away from areas where others are surfing if they do not have the control to stick to it.

Denzil

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by morsey » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:26 pm

If you go to the bore on a busy day you have to expect people will be all over the shop, it matters not what craft they are in/on. If you are on the wave with ten fellow boardies, then you have effectively blocked off the entire wave! People choose their get on spot an hour before, they will not know how many people will be on the wave and there will be competition for the wave, that is the nature of the beast.

Go mid week on a really early or dark tide and it is a much more calm and earthy experience! :-)

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by steddyjames » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:45 pm

It's a river, surf etiquette does not apply.......

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Joe L » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:24 pm

Dam surfers charging head down in a straight line in a massive group stopping everyone else carving about and enjoying the wave as it should be surfed...

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by wezzzy » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:31 pm

I have to agree with "Every man for themselves" when it comes to the Bore, head down, PLF and hope you don't hit (or get hit by) too much.
Everyone bumps into everyone else.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by NickH » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:28 pm

morsey wrote:If you go to the bore on a busy day you have to expect people will be all over the shop
I quite agree that on the bore it's every man for himself, and I have no time for whingers. However:
it matters not what craft they are in/on.
It's seems obvious here that this is apparently not the case. The surfers are generally in control, happily sharing the wave, whilst the kayakers almost all look like wildly out of control amateurs who are pretty much a hazard to themselves and everybody else.

My point is that based on this video, surfers seem controlled and sociable, whereas kayakers are out of control and taking out other kayakers and surfers alike.

Previously I'd always felt like surfers had a massive chip on their shoulder about kayakers, but based on this I can entirely see their point. - This just feels a bit embarrassing for our sport...

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by StoneWeasel » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:33 pm

NickH wrote:My point is that based on this video, surfers seem controlled and sociable, whereas kayakers are out of control and taking out other kayakers and surfers alike.
Don't assume that the kayakers on the vid are representative of all kayakers, they are not, some of us are pretty reasonable at controlling ourselves on a wave.
NickH wrote:Previously I'd always felt like surfers had a massive chip on their shoulder about kayakers, but based on this I can entirely see their point. - This just feels a bit embarrassing for our sport...
Some surfers do have a massive chip and it comes from doing what you appear to be doing and assume that all kayakers are out of controll menaces just because some are. The reality is some paddlers are out of control pests but then so are some surfers.

Denzil

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:39 pm

NickH wrote: My point is that based on this video, surfers seem .......... sociable,
I didn't feel I could make that judgement from the video.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by SimonMW » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:45 pm

There is an etiquette on the Bore. There is a large group of the surfers who are there on every single tide, no matter how small. So there is a code of conduct, and it really pisses them off when some guys just come in with no control over their craft basically just barging others off the wave. It's dangerous, irresponsible and downright selfish. Plus kayakers have a whacking great paddle which means they should give even more space.

The regulars are very sociable, and want everyone to enjoy the wave. They don't mind sharing at all. But if you go in there with an "every man for themselves" mentality, don't be surprised if you piss off a load of people in the process. Yes, there are surfers who behave like idiots too. But I have heard a number of complaints about kayakers (even from other kayakers!)

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by morsey » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:57 pm

But that is just one example. I can list the long board who purposely kicked me off at Newnham, the short board who carved me into the arch at Overbridge, the Team London surf school who jumped in from high above practically as I was taking off. Minsterworth is generally carnage with all manner of craft making all kind of weird and wonderful attempts at steering. The bore is not just about surfing, the surfers come and attempt to run the whole length, and good on them, those long rides are impressive. The kayakers are generally about carving around in their boats. But the history and attraction of the wave is about seeing the spectacle and taking on the mighty bore in craft borne from toil and cunning. Coming from Gloucestershire and making many pilgrimages across fields to see the bore in my early years, the stories were always of the elders having taken to the river in rowing boats and rafts and of spectators running from the banks to flee the massive deluge of water. What has happened over the passed ten years or so is that a group of bore riders think they now are the masters of the bore and what they say goes. As I pointed out ten boardies side by side blocks the entire wave, is it any different to when you get bunched out of the line up by boardies in the surf? If you want to discuss etiquette then speak to the old bore riders, they hate the crowds, they hate power boats ramping up the middle of the river.

The abuse aimed our way is the same old, same old, people start to think they have more right to be on the wave, river, sea... than others and rather than just getting on with it they think it is okay to start making up their own rules! Of course all surfers were brilliant at surfing from the moment they took to the waves, they have never fallen off, caught an edge, carved into someone else! They can get over themselves, it is the ocean rampaging into the shire, the history books state that not even a King can halt the rise of the tide! We should all just share the wave because we are nice, not because we feel any miss placed duty to bow to others.

More importantly Nick, did you get on, did you get a good ride, did you get any video, or were you off on the massive Woolly weekender? :-)

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by steddyjames » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:59 pm

StoneWeasel wrote:
NickH wrote:Some surfers do have a massive chip and it comes from doing what you appear to be doing and assume that all kayakers are out of controll menaces just because some are. The reality is some paddlers are out of control pests but then so are some surfers.

Denzil
Being a board surfer as well as kayaker I can quite happily say surfers are generally the most miserable anti-social whingers I've ever met. However there is a big difference between an out of control surfer and out of control kayaker.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Andy H » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:07 pm

On the real sea surf i have never had a problem with the board surfers, once they see that you can hold your line and pull a few moves and as long as you stick to the rules (not dropping in etc), they will give you respect In fact i have even had i come over and upright me once when i overturned and had my paddle ripped out of my hands and was struggling to handroll in the surf.

Now the bore is a free for all so you can expect to get wiped out by somebody but to do that on the proper surf then they will be rightly annoyed with you.

Andy
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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Kayak-Bloke » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:55 pm

I'm with the others it's hard to apply the rules to the bore. Yeah he messes up but who is to say the boardies have the right to hog the sweet spot and line up with not enough room for anyone else to get on the steep section?

Due to geography and time restraints I surf way more than I river paddle and I can safely say many boardies do have a huge chip on their shoulder about goatboaters and pretty much anyone else that wants to get on the wave not on a 'traditional' board.

I've personally had a group of boardies arrive at a spot, I was already paddling at, and then deliberately sit inside to prevent me from getting another wave.
I've been threatened when taking my boat off the roof rack at one spot.
I've seen a thousand baordies drop in, snake and generally mess up a boater's ride on purpose as if the 'rules' don't apply to them.

Conversely I've shared good surf spots with boardies that just want to enjoy the waves.
Once they see you can carve safely they will often let you join the line up and call your wave when it's your turn.

You can't genralise on a whole group on one incident.
Go and watch any crowded break and you'll see loads of board on board incidents and breaks in the rules but no-one remembers them as much as one goatboater.

Some people want it all and perpetuate a lot of crap cos they don't want to share it with others...
There's muppets in all walks of life.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by SimonMW » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:44 pm

You can't genralise on a whole group on one incident.
Exactly. I'm not going to dig in with this debate. But I will say that I've hung around with the regular Bore surfers for a number of years now, and I've never once heard them get defensive about sharing the wave, as long as people don't behave like idiots.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by sawdusty » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:16 pm

I'm a bore regular and am happy to say that kayaks are more than welcome as long as they are able to control their boats.There are several bore regulars in kayaks who share long rides with us in total harmony. If a boarder goes out of control they generally catch a rail and fall off pretty quick. Out of control kayaks can stay locked into the wave causing mayhem, so there is a slight difference.
Boarders use hands and arms for propulsion which are much more fragile than carbon fibre paddles and kayaks are designes for pouncing off rocks which boards are not. We are much more vulnerable than you. Please don't feel unwelcome , but please stay in control. If you feel you might not be skilled enough to surf the river in control , then maybe wait until you are skilled enough to do so.

Here's another clip from last weekend. I'm afraid you might hear me shouting at the kayaker towards the end. I was concerned for the safety of my daughter who was surfing on my right.


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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Robbie C » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:24 pm

Well, what can I add?
Only 4* bore at a reasonable weekend time this year & this was the best place to try & catch it at the weekend.
Too many short boats on the water for a wave that needs something atleast like an RPM? It's not that steep except close to the bank.
Don't take an inflatable double, creek boat or bodyboard.
The two guys who got nearest to the wave didn't hit any surfers but one of them got pulled off the wave due to a leash going across him when the surfer fell one side & the board the other of the kayak.
The guy in the RPM had the surfer nearest to Him, constantly reaching down & trying to push him into the bank. (p.s. He's also an ex Surfer)

Me? Well, I didn't get the wave, wrong position, but will be back with my Jester, on a weekday & will probably still share the wave with a group of friendly surfers.... I never heard a bad word from anyone. Everyone is there for the one wave & that seems to give a spirit of cameradery.

It's not a Sea, surf wave. You can't really pick a spot to start from, where the wave will be steep enough like on the sea, more like dropping down onto a river wave.

Finally, Thats not how we all surf in the sea.... thats where the etiquette is followed! ;-)

Cheers Robbie C

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by sawdusty » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:26 pm

Kayak-Bloke wrote:I'm with the others it's hard to apply the rules to the bore. Yeah he messes up but who is to say the boardies have the right to hog the sweet spot and line up with not enough room for anyone else to get on the steep section?

Everyone wants the sweet spot, the steeps, the shoulder. It is a matter of skill, stamina , local knowlege and a certain ammount of luck as to who gets the shoulder. If a kayaker gets it then good luck to them. To say that surfers hog it is rubbish. I want it every time and rarely get it. There's no conspiracy amoungst surfers preventing kayakers getting it. Everyone wants it. Boarders generally are the most experienced surfers on the river which is why you will usually see boarders on the shoulder.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by sarajames » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:22 am

Nick... isn't that you surfing in the blue rpm?
:P

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:34 am

sawdusty wrote:I'm a bore regular and am happy to say that kayaks are more than welcome as long as they are able to control their boats.
Quite right, we don't want any novices learning on our wave. If you cannot control your boat you are not welcome.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:23 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:
sawdusty wrote:I'm a bore regular and am happy to say that kayaks are more than welcome as long as they are able to control their boats.
Quite right, we don't want any novices learning on our wave. If you cannot control your boat you are not welcome.
I am guessing you are saying that out of sarcasm but to a certain degree it is a valid attitude to be taken, especially by bore regulars. The Bore is not a wave to learn on, it is not like the sea where if you mess up someone else's ride they will be annoyed but can paddle out and get another wave, if you mess up someone's ride on the bore then they have to wait for another suitable bore to ride (potentially weeks away). Learn to surf in the sea, away from crowds, when you can control your boat well enough to share a wave without running people over then you will be welcome on the bore.

Kayakers and surfers have generally got on very well at the bore for many years, let's not spoil that by being reckless and irresponsible.

I have received a PM on a surfing forum I am a member of by a concerned bore surfer highlighting this tread and this is what he had to say:
Bore Regular Bloke wrote:Obviously I don't know you..for all I know you're a member of that forum. Now the bore riders are not necessarily surfers. They are MOSTLY stand up surfers, but historically they have also been paddlers, and we've always got on.. until a year or so back when we started seeing one or two paddlers who frankly don't seem to care about ploughing through people...as if they've forgotten this is a leisure pastime and anyone forcing another person to lose control of large heavy pieces of kit in an intense tidal surge, whether boards or boats, is risking somebody else's life and limb.
Now we as paddlers can recognise that these people are no doubt just people that don't really have the skill to control there boats properly on such a feature but it is clearly causing resentment somewhere where we have always been welcome so come on, let's use a bit of common sense and play together nicely.
Before you go to surf the bore, go to the sea and go for a surf, if you can maintain control of your boat consistently (try avoiding imaginary obstacles on the wave, there will be plenty of non imaginary ones on a bore wave) then by all means go and play on the bore but if you are not in control and would be endangering people if they were sharing a wave with you then a bit more practice may be in order first.

Sorry that was a bit long winded,

Denzil

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by jam bo » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:48 am

The only thing both those videos demonstrate to me is that I never want to surf the Severn bore. Looks incredibly dull, surfers seem to be the longboard/SUP type with a poohman stance and for the kayakers it's bongo slide heaven.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by StoneWeasel » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:51 am

If anyone is planning on going to surf the bore Gloucester Harbour Trustees have put together a little guide which has some useful information, some handy advice and a bit of interesting history (I had no Idea that the Bore was first surfed by Mad Jack Churchill, the only man to get a confirmed kill with a longbow in WWII). The guide seems to be more aimed at board surfers but it all pretty much applies to us to.

Denzil

edt: I dont think the bit on page 14 where it says "Remember, if someone else is already riding the wave you should
not take off." is really relevant for the bore.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by jmmoxon » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:40 pm

Basically if you show others some respect & consideration you'll get on better with them, if you just turn up & expect to do whatever you want then expect some complaints...

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by sawdusty » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:20 pm

jmmoxon wrote:Basically if you show others some respect & consideration you'll get on better with them, if you just turn up & expect to do whatever you want then expect some complaints...

Mike
very well put!

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by morsey » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:24 am

I looked at the video again. Thirty five people trying to catch the wave, ten boardies "hogging" the line! Twenty three people did not get a ride! The simple fact is that if you want to get on the wave once it is up through the estuary and into the main river, you have to be at the very edges to get on in most places. If a big group of people are on the edge there will potentially be a collision of sorts. If you don't take off they and the wave will run over you, and chances are such that you will not be able to get out of the way. If there are two or three people on the wave there will be space to join without too much bother. Canoeists if they get on a sea wave with ten of them on the wave, they will be damned for hogging the wave, even if it is on the broken section and no good to those who want to ride the shoulder. If they rocked up to the bore in big groups and rode ten a breast they will be told off for sure. It is like this, the surfers do not own the bore, the canoeists do not own the bore, it is for everyone, everyone to share. The crazies who turn up in fancy dress and inflatable wotnots, you cannot tell them they cannot get on, and they are hell bent on doing their own thing regardless! It is not for anyone to start imposing "their rules". If I line up for the bore I am taking off, regardless of what is going on, if it works out that I can get a long run or that I can carve the inlets and in particular the bridge arch banks and cut back quickly enough to stay on then all good. If I get knocked off or if I cannot keep on the wave, then hey ho, either dive in the car or catch it another day.

If you want a good ride without too many others, go midweek or of a night time. If you go at busy times, do not start whining that things did not go in your favour, because so and so did this, whilst subtly disregarding that you were doing that! Take a stroll in my wetboots and you will see they are exactly the same as yours.

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Paul L » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:30 am

Stoneweasel wrote
The reality is some paddlers are out of control pests but then so are some surfers.
Moresy wrote
The abuse aimed our way is the same old, same old, people start to think they have more right to be on the wave, river, sea... than others and rather than just getting on with it they think it is okay to start making up their own rules!
Could`nt agree more with both these sentiments

Sawdusty wrote
I'm a bore regular and am happy to say that kayaks are more than welcome as long as they are able to control their boats.
Gee thanks not having a go at you in particular Sawdusty but read your post again from a neutral point of view and I think you might view it a little differently.

Reading between the lines on a few of these posts its easy to get the impression that some think they have more right to be on a river/bore/ocean than others because they are in a certain craft or are better than others.
I will go and paddle /surf where I want when I want who are some of the people on here to tell anyone else when or where they cant go.Its like a sort of selective access agreement based on your craft/ability. Just get out and enjoy your self and dont be such snobs.If someone does something that bothers you have a word with that person don`t come on a forum like this and slag everyone in that group paddlers/surfers as if were all the same.

Cheers

Paul

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by boater rich » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:04 am

I would just like to say that as a regular bore rider I haven't yet had a problem with a surfer not welcoming a kayak, however surfing over people and bodies is not going to be well received whether by a kayak OR a board.

The reality is that the bore is a one hit wonder - if you miss it it can be a long wait for your next opportunity - and is also not a risk free ride, as well as the hazards of large numbers of people trying to surf a wave together many other dangers lurk that are a bit unique to the bore. I personally have experience of dodging on the wave trees, gas cylinders, barrels and even aerated concrete! Others have stories of floating cows, fridges and other junk. As such I would think that if you are unable to steer in a straight line with due regard for those around you, you shouldn't be there. There are lots of places you can learn to surf in a straight line and steer, its not a particularly hard skill to learn but it IS an important one, particularly in the bore environment. It equally applies to board surfers, sit on tops and kayaks.

Having said that, assuming you can stay mostly in control (everyone has occaisional issues) I'm sure you will find most people down on the bore very welcoming and more than ready to share tips and advice.

Laters

Rich

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Re: A video demonstrating why surfers (justifiably) hate us.

Post by Simon » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:10 am

jam bo wrote:The only thing both those videos demonstrate to me is that I never want to surf the Severn bore. Looks incredibly dull, surfers seem to be the longboard/SUP type with a poohman stance and for the kayakers it's bongo slide heaven.
The one thing it is not is incredibly dull. Sitting on the calm still water by the Severn Bridge Inn, the suspense and anticipation slowly rising, then seeing this raging wall of water appear round the corner, certainly gets my adrenaline pumping.

Simon

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