River Dee Info

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leohoare
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River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

Paddlers, please do not paddle the river Dee upstream of Glyndyfrdwy. These waters are Corwen Anglers territory and will cause us a lot of grief. It is becoming popular to get in at Carrog, Please dont.
ALSO you risk getting your car tampered with.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

The "Welsh" Dee crosses a national border and according to international law appears to have the right of navigation along its entire length:

International Regulation on River Navigation[138] - Resolution of Heidelberg, 9 September 1887

"The navigation on the whole course of international rivers, from the point where each of them becomes navigable, to the sea, is entirely free, and cannot, as regards commerce, be forbidden to any flags."

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/W9549E/w9549e08.htm

Bear in mind that as far as I know England and Wales are the only countries who allow the occupiers of river banks to claim the river bed as well, with an assumed "right" to exclude all others from "their" stretch of the river.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

hi Pete not sure what your getting at sorry, but try telling that lot to Corwen Anglers when they are letting your tyres down!!

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Jim Pullen »

leohoare wrote:hi Pete not sure what your getting at sorry, but try telling that lot to Corwen Anglers when they are letting your tyres down!!
Call the police! For goodness sake, by letting them get away with this nonsense they'll think it's acceptable behaviour. By staying off a section of river you are merely giving into the demands of these imbeciles and reinforcing the idea that these tactics will work for them in the access debate.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

leohoare wrote:hi Pete not sure what your getting at sorry, but try telling that lot to Corwen Anglers when they are letting your tyres down!!
Well, anglers doing so are committing two offences: tampering with a motor vehicle being one and criminal damage the other. Just goes to show the type of thug you are up against and you should make sure the police are aware of the situation.

I posted that because it's about time we stood up to the angling industry and having international law enforced might open up rivers such as the Welsh Dee, Severn and all others crossing the border between Wales to England. The only way to deal with bullies is have bigger guns, and international law takes precedence over anything the angling industry can bring to bear.

The right of navigation extends to the limit of navigation but doesn't seem to take account the type of vessel so the entire length of the Dee from Bala to the estuary is navigable by a kayak or even a coracle.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by buck197 »

Leo I understand what you say and as others said that we are giving in to their intimidation. So if all angling clubs do this then we will not be able to paddle anywhere except Treweryn, HPP, Cardiff and the London Olympic venue etc. We need to engage the law so that this intimidation stops or do we resort to their tactics by letting tyres down and messing with their vehicles when they are fishing, don't think we should do this. A protest or collect video evidence.

I realise that the police are not interested in us so we need to give them concrete proof of wrong doing.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

i understand. but i am not getting into the big access debate. Living 10ft from the Dee, in Glyndyfrdwy i am also understanding of all the local issues which go with this particular stretch of water. Its becoming more acceptable to paddle from Glyndyfrdwy to Llangollen (Midland Anglers) , which is slowly and organically becoming the case. Like access on the Serpants Tail which as little as 5 years ago was not paddled due to the grief we all got. Now you see 2 or 3 centres (National centres) running courses there and its now accepted. Knowing the situation and the people we are dealing with above Glyndyfrdwy bridge im afraid it will never be the case.
Please; i do not like confrontation or argument from paddlers or fisherman. Its just a heads up, thats all!!
Lastly, they wouldnt be letting your tyres down with you there whilst phoning the police, it will be whilst you are on the water. and if you phoned the police they would inquire why you were trespassing which is the case in Carrog

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

leohoare wrote: and if you phoned the police they would inquire why you were trespassing which is the case in Carrog
Because you have the right to navigate the Dee. You might say that your right to navigate is under the International Regulation on River Navigation - Resolution of Heidelberg, 9 September 1887, and that their angling friends are committing a criminal offence by impeding lawful navigation.

They'll have to go away and look up the law which should keep them out of mischief for a while.

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Last edited by Wildswimmer Pete on Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

ive thought long and hard about this. Trespass is trespass if we damage something. if they come at us with the angle that the fisherman no longer want to buy the fishing rights from the landowners due to the amount of paddlers on their stretch this could be deemed has damaging to the income of the landowner. so they do have an angle if they wish to pursue.
All other angles of the big debate lead to bun fights.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

leohoare wrote: Trespass is trespass if we damage something.
...........and the right to navigate usurps "trespass" and is the right to travel peacefully along the river. Any attempt to interfere with lawful navigation is a criminal offence. What can you damage when you're afloat on the river?

If the law does give you the right of navigation then as far as the riparian owner is concerned - tough. No matter what their loss they have no other angle to pursue as international law is involved.

We really need UKRGB's legal beagles to check up on this.

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Last edited by Wildswimmer Pete on Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Mike A »

I haven't got maps to hand, but from memory isnt the get on at Carrog a public footpath?

Edit - Just had a look on Denbeigh website, online maps, public rights of way. If I'm reading it correctly the path is a public right of way.
Last edited by Mike A on Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Jim Pullen »

Mike A wrote:I haven't got maps to hand, but from memory isnt the get on at Carrog a public footpath?
Looks like it.
leohoare wrote:ive thought long and hard about this. Trespass is trespass if we damage something. if they come at us with the angle that the fisherman no longer want to buy the fishing rights from the landowners due to the amount of paddlers on their stretch this could be deemed has damaging to the income of the landowner. so they do have an angle if they wish to pursue.
All other angles of the big debate lead to bun fights.
So why has no one taken a paddler to court for the civil tort of trespass, or the criminal law of aggravated trespass for over 30 years? It's not going to happen, modern courts will not accept this argument.
leohoare wrote:I understand. but I am not getting into the big access debate. Living 10ft from the Dee, in Glyndyfrdwy I am also understanding of all the local issues which go with this particular stretch of water. Its becoming more acceptable to paddle from Glyndyfrdwy to Llangollen (Midland Anglers) , which is slowly and organically becoming the case. Like access on the Serpants Tail which as little as 5 years ago was not paddled due to the grief we all got. Now you see 2 or 3 centres (National centres) running courses there and its now accepted. Knowing the situation and the people we are dealing with above Glyndyfrdwy bridge im afraid it will never be the case.
I'm sure it wasn't that long ago that paddlers cars got regularly vandalised at the chain bridge car park. This seems to have reduced as the concept of open access to the popular stretch of the Dee became ingrained. I can't see the difference in concept here.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

Well, it seems i should be humbled.
has long as you lot support me in the same way when the paddle school opens it should be fine!!
i know its causing a bit of a stir already
thank you

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

Leo, if you are worried over being sued, take a look at your household insurance. Virtually all policies cover public liability. My very basic contents only policy also covers me for public liability up to £2 million.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

this i will do. but unfortunatly it not me its Getafix.com which is a commercial operation. Although we own both banks in Glyndyfrdwy its provoking the fisherman on the upstream of us.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

If you want to catch those vandalising paddlers' cars ( and this is for all paddlers who suffer this behaviour) there's a trick used by wildlife photographers.

All digital cameras that I've come across can "see" infra-red. Wildlife and humans can't.

You need a digital camera with a shoe to take a proper flashgun. Cover the flashgun's window with a piece of infra-red filter (you buy it in small sheets). Then when the cars are left behind have someone hidden as close to the vehicles as possible. When the vandals arrive let them get on with it and shoot away merrily. The result should be a memory card full of evidence. Don't shoot while they are looking directly at you as they may see a dim red flash because of leakage through the filter. Finally when you've got what you need, take the face shots to identify them.

The camera's auto functions might not work properly so it's best to focus manually (if the focus scale has the IR correction mark then use that). Using manual settings set the shutter for external flash and given the small amount of IR that will be available you'll very likely need the widest aperture. It might be a good idea to have a couple of practice runs before doing any surveillance for real.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by leohoare »

thank you for your support Pete. not only am i humbled i feel educated

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Wildswimmer Pete »

leohoare wrote:thank you for your support Pete. not only am I humbled I feel educated
Gladly given - bear in mind that I'm an old fart and the least I can do is pass on anything useful from my long and mis-spent life. I've done infrared photography in the past but it was using infra-red film that had to be sent away for specialist processing. The advantage of digital cameras is that you can see your results immediately. I understand that you can make videos using IR, in which case you illuminate the area using a powerful torch with infra-red filter fitted. I believe you can now buy special LED lights fitted with IR LEDs. Would be easy enough to make one as high intensity infra-red LEDs are cheap as chips.

Meanwhile I wonder what Rev, Caffyn could make of the law mentioned earlier in this thread.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Adrian Cooper »

What would you say if someone blocked a public footpath and said you couldn't use it because it was 'oh such a terrible inconvenience'. What then if you did use the path and they got so fed up they smashed up your car. Would you say 'I'm sorry, in future I will make sure I never use the path and will tell all my friends to do the same'. Or maybe you would report the obstruction to the local authority and report the damage to the police. That is what should happen.

Paddling a river is absolutely not trespass.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

Hey Leo, I hear what your saying.

This stretch of river is where I've experienced the most hassle whilst paddling, which I guess is some good going.

Though seriously, I'm taking a different approach to any harrasment/agro that these fucktards bring towards myself and the group I'm within. If it means confrontation, I'm willing to take it, but they better expect something back. This won't help access, but what access do we have? Lets get real eh?

Seriously, the majority (so not all) of us boaters are scared, in educated and to easy to give in to these fisherman.

When I boat, I genuine believe I am doing nothing wrong, hurting no one and nor am I out to disturb anyones day. I'll boat, and carry on doing so, if someone physically and verbally tries to stop us, then we shouldn't bow down!

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Mark R »

leohoare wrote:Paddlers, please do not paddle the river Dee upstream of Glyndyfrdwy. These waters are Corwen Anglers territory and will cause us a lot of grief. It is becoming popular to get in at Carrog, Please dont.
Thanks for your advice.

I would absolutely, emphatically, urge folk to ignore it.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by twicezero »

There was a lot of fuss today seeing as there was the sum total of 1 person fishing (fly in the river) - friendly easy to share with, - and another person getting ready to fish.

Access is a well signed public footpath off the road at Carrog.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by davebrads »

I don't know how to put this kindly, but what is it with paddling businesses based on the Dee that once they get to own a piece of the bank, they start siding with the fishermen in their view of river access legislation.

I'm sorry Leo if this is not where you are coming from, but surely you must see how it looks to the average joe paddler who doesn't have the benefit of some riverside frontage - and seeing as these guys are your prospective customers it might be worth seeing things from their perspective, as it appears you do from later postings.

And if all you are trying to do is to reduce the amount of hassle you are receiving from the fishermen towards your business, I suggest you find another way to do it.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

Maybe this will become an access/egress point for us eh Leo? :-)

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Dave Thomas »

twicezero wrote:Access is a well signed public footpath off the road at Carrog.
But unless the public footpath runs through a ford, It is still technically necessary to cross private land (to 'trespass', if you like) to enter the water. That is something which no amount of argument regarding rights of navigation, 'ownership' of fishing rights, etc can change. Of course, unless the farmer/landowner is himself a fisherman, it need not be a major stumbling block. But it is one area where we don't argue from a position of strength.
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Re: River Dee Info

Post by bigDave »

We were the first group (I think) of 9 paddlers on at Carrog yesterday and enjoyed our paddle, accessing the river from the public footpath
We were slightly ahead of a large club group with mixed abilities and ages having a lovely time and it was nice to see the junior paddlers enjoying the water despite the cold.

We did meet a large group of men on the bank having a BBQ with their 4x4's who repeatedly asked for our leader to come over to their side of the bank and explain why we were on the river as we were not allowed (in there opinion), some took pictures and followed us down the bank for a while.

We stayed on the opposite bank and silently paddled passed and ignored them.

It spoilt the group’s atmosphere for 1/2 hour or so but we got over it.

I hope the larger following group faired better and enjoyed their day.

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Cobweb »

We went past the anglers at the same time as the group with juniors in it and they didn't seem to create much hassle - there were some pictures taken and clearly I am a bit dim as I thought they were taking piccices of the nice people boating for their holiday snaps

p.s. Thanks to Big Dave's group for the lift back up the river to get our car

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Jim »

Dave Thomas wrote:
twicezero wrote:Access is a well signed public footpath off the road at Carrog.
But unless the public footpath runs through a ford, It is still technically necessary to cross private land (to 'trespass', if you like) to enter the water. That is something which no amount of argument regarding rights of navigation, 'ownership' of fishing rights, etc can change. Of course, unless the farmer/landowner is himself a fisherman, it need not be a major stumbling block. But it is one area where we don't argue from a position of strength.
Is there a specification as to how wide a footpath is and whether or not it is interpreted to follow the line drawn on the OS map metre by metre?
I thought it had become common practice to skirt the edge of planted fields even if the map shows a path going right across the middle, since a river will always be along the fringe of a field, where tractors would generally be hard pushed to go, I can see no reason whether the field is planted or not, that the land up to the river should not be considered if not part of the path, certainly acceptable to cross in lieu of the path. Of course it would require a legal precedent, and since labour made a point of excluding access to water from the CROW for whatever hidden agendas they may have had, it seems unlikely that the conservatives (who would find it much harder to hide their interests being essentially a bunch of 'landed gentry') are going to pay us any attention.

This is not the only location where the boundary of the footpath is (or has been) in dispute with respect to river (and even land) access, a couple of locations on the Tees spring readily to mind.

Which reminds me, isn't part of the law relating to trespass that if challenged you must leave the land by the shortest route? If you are carrying a boat, that may well be onto the water :-)

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by action_girl72 »

davebrads wrote:I don't know how to put this kindly, but what is it with paddling businesses based on the Dee that once they get to own a piece of the bank, they start siding with the fishermen in their view of river access legislation.
I note that you apologised to Leo if that isn't where he's coming from, I think that Leo is implying that we can play the long game on this particular stretch of river (at least that's my interpretation of what he's posted through thread, rather than just his initial post).

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Re: River Dee Info

Post by Norman Teasdale »

action_girl72 wrote:I think that Leo is implying that we can play the long game on this particular stretch of river
Hmmm, seems to me the suggestion is that we stop playing the game at all, and give in to unjustified aggro.

Anyway, the 'long game' has gone on for at least 20 years that I remember; is another 20 years likely to change the situation?

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