CRB for BCU?

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chriscw
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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by chriscw » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:07 pm

Thanks Andrew,

An interesting post. I filled in a form recently then came to the bit about designated identity checkers which stumped me a bit. I'd better Google it I suppose. As there is no real Canoe Club here in Basingstoke I mainly work with Mainstream and we are somewhat geographically diverse.... Locally I paddle with, and sometimes coach, various friends of all ages mostly not children.
Chris Clarke-Williams
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Touring, Coaching Beginners (I am an L2K), Surf White water trips, Weir Play (I'm not good enough to put freestyle!)

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thekidsafish
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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by thekidsafish » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:31 pm

I contacted the CRB twice, and both times I was told that it was unlawful for the BCU to insist that I have a check through them.

It is not just the ineffectiveness of the system that I find worrying, but the sheer waste of money - the cost of a needless check is greater than my membership!

Chris
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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by confusedkayak » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:27 pm

Hi,

Sorry for bringing back an old thread. I'm new here and really not a very good computer person, so was nervous about starting a new thread as the subject is similar to this one. I found this thread by Googleing for things which might help my situation and found it very informative. I was just wondering if I could pick your brains and see what people make of this.

I used to live in England and became a UKCC Level 2 in 2010. I have since moved to Scotland and work as a freelance outdoor instructor. I never changed my registered address with Canoe England because I move around every 6 months and so it was just easier to keep my mums address on the record. However, my BCU CRB ran out in November and so the problems begun. I will do my very best to keep this short(ish).

I contacted Canoe England and asked them to send me a CRB form (it was sent to my mum and my mum posted it to me). I then realised I would need someone to do my identity check for my CRB, so ask Canoe England who could do it. They sent me a list of identity checks for the south of england, I live roughly 500 miles away. So i explained that I now live in Scotland, could I please have the identity checker list for Scotland. They told me if I coached in Scotland I needed to join the SCA as long as I didn't do any coaching in England. At the time I didn't coach in England so I joined the SCA. I don't need a CRB because the SCA don't require one (bonus!). About 1 month later I get a big bulk of work offered to me by an outdoor centre in England, and of course accept it. I contact Canoe England and ask what I do now. I am a valid member of the SCA but now have to do some coaching in England. Canoe England said I needed to validate my Canoe England membership or I am not permitted to coach in England. I can only do this by getting a CRB. I asked how I can get a CRB done if I live in Scotland. The conclusion is that I have to drive 500 miles down to the south coast of england where my mum lives, to get someone down there to check my identity (a 1000 mile round trip). Is this not madness? To top if off I am currently having an English CRB done by the Duke of Edinburgh, but as I have only just started volunteering with them it isn't good enough for Canoe England!

In conclusion I have to be a valid member of the SCA and Canoe England and drive 1000 miles for the privilege of getting a CRB done, even though I am already having a CRB done on me. How does Canoe England still have any coaches left if this is how they treat them?

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by AlexN » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:25 am

Have you looked into using a Portability form? I have not done this but I think you can get Canoe England to send a portability form to whoever you did your DofE CRB with. This means they are requesting that the DofE people verify that you are who you are and no concerns arose on the disclosure. Try asking canoe England to request this.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Sayno2playboats » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:25 am

confusedkayak wrote: I will do my very best to keep this short(ish).
One of the delights of this Forum is that you never need to worry about keeping things 'short(ish)'.
Time off the water hangs very heavily for some of us and any diversion is of value! Cheers, M

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by confusedkayak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:40 am

thanks for your reply. I asked Canoe England if I could do that, they said no. I assume it is because I have only just started volunteering for the DofE, and I have to have been volunteering for over 6 months with them for my CRB to be accepted by Canoe England.

I also asked Canoe England if I could do it through post (e.g. send my completed form and ID by registered post to a checker). Again i was told no because they need to identify the photographic ID. I have been working in the outdoor industry for years so was hoping I might know someone who is a checker so thought as they already know what I look like maybe they could check my ID. Again I was told no it has to be done face-to-face. Basically Canoe England are giving me no other option then to drive 1000 miles to do this.

If there anyone I can complain to about it does anyone know?

Thanks for you reply as well Sayno2playboats, I wil remember that for the future. Just didn't want to bore anyone too much :-)

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by DaveB » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:05 am

Whilst the wholes sytem is crazy it may not be quite as bad as you suggest. Surely you could if necessary have your ID checked at BCU Towers in Nottingham which is a lot shorter than a drive to the South coast, or by an Identity checker based in the north of england which would be shorter still. I am an identity checker in West Midlands Region and my details are available to any CRB applicant via the Union; I am not just restricted to checking for my CLub.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by DanJ » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:58 am

The bit i find madness the most is the comment about using your coaching qualifications outside your home nation -

"I am a valid member of the SCA but now have to do some coaching in England. Canoe England said I needed to validate my Canoe England membership or I am not permitted to coach in England. I can only do this by getting a CRB. "


Is this really true? As a paid up member of the SCA you can not coach (and have the support of the membership benefits) in England without having CE membership.

Does this then mean CE member coaches need to get membership of each home nation they work in? I have to admit i do not read the small print very often but i thought the country you were worked in did not matter as long as you were following best practice etc etc.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by confusedkayak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:06 pm

Thank you for your reply Dave.
Driving down the the south does first appear to be more inconvient and it is purely based on my preferences. Basically driving to the border takes me about 5 hours. Then by the time I get to somewhere to check my identity I am assuming it would take about another hour from the border on the M6. So it would be about 12 hours of driving there and back. I know I'm rubbish but I would find that too much in one day. I also undertand and accept this is purefly my choice and nothing to do with Canoe England, but I just think 12 hours is too much in a day (that is without any breaks so total time you be even longer). So I would have to then find accommodation for the night. I would rather drive further south, then I could stay with my mum for a few days before driving back up. It would still take a long time (about 10 hours + time for break), but I think that would JUST be do-able for me in a day. I am sure some people will see me as making the wrong desision, but I have driven down to my mums in one day a few times and I know that I couldn't drive further than that.

DanJ - I couldn't believe this and didn't know it either. Truthfully I have been a Canoe England Member for years and have worked in Scotland and Wales without getting their membership before (I had no idea I was meant to). I also know loads of people who do this. The only reason I found this out is that when my CRB ran out I asked Canoe England for a list of ID checkers in Scotland and was told I had to belong to the SCA because I now live in Scotland. So I joined the SCA then was told (by Canoe England) that because I also do work in England I have to belong to Canoe England and Canoe Scotland. The email read something along the line that I am not permitted to do any coaching in England without a current, valid, Canoe England Membership.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:07 pm

I am quite sure that a number of things you are being told are rubbish.

Working in Scotland they have a different system so do that.

If you want to work in England then maybe some organisations may require you to have a CRB check done (eg DoE) then get it done for them. If no other organisation needs it then don't get it. I am sure you don't need to be CE member to coach in England.

If you really need a CRB through the BCU or CE then anyone can check your credentials but I suggest you use someone in the canoeing fraternity like your LCO or RCO locally in Scotland. I cannot believe that CE will challenge this unless you tell them that you have not followed their recommendation.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by quicky » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:24 pm

So you need to be a member of Canoe England?..... You probably have to go to London to get your CRB verified and the AGM in Scotland if you want to complain about it!

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by confusedkayak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:31 pm

This is what I have been told by the CRB administrator:
Unfortunately the verification process must be completed on a face to face basis; the reason the procedure is done this way is in part to prevent identity fraud. Additionally under the new Home Office rules we can only accept applications which have been verified by identity checkers who are on our approved list

I have literally phoned/emailed over 30 times trying to get this all sorted and it is actually driving me mad. It was also the CRB administrator who told me I had to be a Canoe England member to coach in England. I have just emailed someone else from Canoe England to give me a second confirmation of this and I am going to email the SCA to triple check!

Thank you for all info and responses so far.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:57 pm

So, who's going to tell Dave Rossetter that he needs to join CE in order to coach in England, and who'se going to tell Ray Goodwin?

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Pete the kayaker » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:14 pm

confusedkayak wrote:<snip>I was told (by Canoe England) that because I also do work in England I have to belong to Canoe England and Canoe Scotland. The email read something along the line that I am not permitted to do any coaching in England without a current, valid, Canoe England Membership.
What Canoe England told you is utter chod. They would like it to be so, but there is no legal requirement for this.

If your employer is happy with your SCA membership, just do it.
Is there a question of insurance? or do you have you own?
*Fringe Extremist*

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by andy g » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:26 pm

Hi
I understand your dilema. Just a thought , are you a member of a local club in Scotland. If so they may have an Identity Checker among their ranks , who should be able to do the checking and verification for you. With us (admittedly south of the border) it is our Welfare Officer who fulfils this role and CE are (hopefully) quite happy with this.
Andy

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by BryanF » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:04 pm

I am a member of CANI, i work in London every day and I run course's in Wales and Scotland 5-6 times a year and I have a CRB check done by canoe England. It all sounds like a lot of paper work but to be honest its because of my home office that i can get this all done. CANI have said I can continue to work in London as I have stated to them that in 2-3 years I will return to my home nation to work there. Canoe England did say to me at first that I needed to be a member of their books as I coached in England. Once CANI heard that canoe England were trying to "acquire" a coach they were on the case.
People move around in this industry and you shouldn't be punished for having too.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by twopigs » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:21 pm

Just think about coaching as you paddle down the Wye - out of England and into Wales, and back, several times a day......
Canoeing - bigger boat, broken paddle, more skill!

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Pete the kayaker » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:44 pm

BryanF wrote:I am a member of CANI, I work in London every day and I run course's in Wales and Scotland 5-6 times a year and I have a CRB check done by canoe England. It all sounds like a lot of paper work but to be honest its because of my home office that I can get this all done. CANI have said I can continue to work in London as I have stated to them that in 2-3 years I will return to my home nation to work there. Canoe England did say to me at first that I needed to be a member of their books as I coached in England. Once CANI heard that canoe England were trying to "acquire" a coach they were on the case.
People move around in this industry and you shouldn't be punished for having too.
I'm no lawyer, but requesting you pay for membership to work in England would appear to be in breach of Charter of Fundamental Rights for the EU (as signed for in the Lisbon treaty) and I suspect that should it be challenged, they would be found to be acting unlawfully.
*Fringe Extremist*

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by confusedkayak » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:21 pm

Right, this has literally taken me weeks so far to sort this out. Thanks so much for everyones help because I feel I might be getting somewhere. I knew this must all be rubbish about me having to join canoe england, but because the lady was so insistant I was starting to give up. But now I have had a response from another lady from Canoe England who has said:

"You can coach but as your CRB is out of date you can’t carry out BCU business ( eg. Assess star awards)"

So I have emailed her back and asked if I can still assess star awards in England using my SCA membership and pass slips and am waiting for her reply.

I don't understand how Canoe England seem to be getting away with misleading people so much. This was what the orginal lady told me

"If you are coaching in Scotland and do not, nor will not, be coaching in England or Wales I am prepared to waiver the disclosure requirement in your case only. However, please note if you are intending to, or likely to coach south of the border then you must complete the process"

Then again in a later email:

"I can only reiterate what I have already told you; if you are coaching in either England or Wales you need to have a valid enhanced DBS ( ex CRB) in place"

All just seems so over the top and money grabbing. It's a real shame.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:53 pm

You could go a little further and advise them that, under the law relating to CRB (DBS) the BCU are not entitiled to request a disclosure simply because they are not the 'deployer'.

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Randy Fandango » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:00 pm

andy g wrote:Hi
I understand your dilema. Just a thought , are you a member of a local club in Scotland. If so they may have an Identity Checker among their ranks , who should be able to do the checking and verification for you. With us (admittedly south of the border) it is our Welfare Officer who fulfils this role and CE are (hopefully) quite happy with this.
Andy
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I'm not sure any/many Scottish clubs will have an identity checker as the SCA doesn't require all coaches to be CRB checked as CE does -- which was what set up the club-based identity checkers south of the border in the first place.
To the OP I'm glad you're getting to the bottom of the matter at last and I'd repeat what's been said here and check what your employer actually requires and is happy with.
I'd also perhaps think about checking with AALA/AALS what their opinion is as I've had feedback from them that they don't require coaches to be CE members to coach paddling in England provided they were "appropriately trained" and experienced and vouched for in writing by the centre's technical advisor/expert.
For instance, we had a sailing instructor who'd paddled for years and had 3 star and FSRT and AALA were perfectly happy (with my written endorsement) for him to co-coach kayak sessions.
Obviously he couldn't issue any BCU awards.
Anyway, all of this is a bit rich coming from CE when they (or the BCU) employed at least one person as one of their club coaches who had no coaching awards at all and paid him a descent wage while they were at it.
When quizzed on this they fast-tracked him onto a level one coach course.
Obviously I've strayed a little away from CRB checks there and was just pointing out that for all their pontificating CE isn't the only body who's opinion matters in coaching at a centre and other bodies may not agree with CE's take on what's a necessity and what isn't.
Giles

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by TechnoEngineer » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:34 am

@confusedkayak - is it not worth finding out if any of the CE CRB verifiers are going on a trip anywhere in Scotland anytime soon...?
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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by thekidsafish » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:36 am

I'd rather be on exped

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by thekidsafish » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:20 pm

This is the reply I got from the CRB when I asked them if an organisation that I don't work for can CRB check me:

Dear Sir

Thanks again for your enquiry.

As previously mentioned, there is no entitlement for this request. You are not working for the BCU and they are not making a decision as to your suitability to work with children or the vulnerable.

If the governing body are advising that qualifications will not be offered or renewed – without a CRB check through their administration, I can only suggest that you seek legal advice on this matter.
I'd rather be on exped

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by David Fairweather » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:14 am

That is an interesting response from the CRB. I wonder if the BCU / Canoe England will be refunding members' who paid out for CRB checks that they didn't need?

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by mudlark » Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:42 am

I'm beginning to see a use for the BCU. If we were members of the BCU (not CE,SCA,C) could we work in any of the home countries?

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by heybaz » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:12 pm

thekidsafish wrote:This is the reply I got from the CRB when I asked them if an organisation that I don't work for can CRB check me...

...As previously mentioned, there is no entitlement for this request. You are not working for the BCU and they are not making a decision as to your suitability to work with children or the vulnerable.

If the governing body are advising that qualifications will not be offered or renewed – without a CRB check through their administration, I can only suggest that you seek legal advice on this matter.
As one who has / does work with children and vulnerable adults occasionally, and has a folder full of CRBs including the utterly pointless BCU CRB, I clearly have an interest in this and am amazed that the BCU continue to insist on requiring a CRB in order to maintain a valid coaching qualification. I'm also sick of the amount of money that must be going into the coffers of CRB "agents"; not just in this context but also in the dental profession for example where my partner has had to have all her staff CRB'd at the behest of the Dental Council who, once again, are not the "deployer".

Is there an individual out there who is being held over a barrel by the BCU on this and willing to seek legal advice? I for one would be happy to contribute a tenner towards a couple of hours of an employment law specialist solicitors time to clarify the BCU position / legality of this and possibly draft a letter to the BCu asking them to justify their position. Any takers? Anybody else willing to chip in?

Barry

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Chris Bolton » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:53 pm

It may be useful to look at https://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/

My employer requires new staff to obtain a disclosure from Disclosure Scotland; they do this directly not though the company, although looking at the website they may need to quote the company in their application. This is in England - Disclosure Scotland work across the UK, not just in Scotland.

Chris

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by thekidsafish » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:24 pm

heybaz wrote:
thekidsafish wrote:This is the reply I got from the CRB when I asked them if an organisation that I don't work for can CRB check me...

...As previously mentioned, there is no entitlement for this request. You are not working for the BCU and they are not making a decision as to your suitability to work with children or the vulnerable.

If the governing body are advising that qualifications will not be offered or renewed – without a CRB check through their administration, I can only suggest that you seek legal advice on this matter.
As one who has / does work with children and vulnerable adults occasionally, and has a folder full of CRBs including the utterly pointless BCU CRB, I clearly have an interest in this and am amazed that the BCU continue to insist on requiring a CRB in order to maintain a valid coaching qualification. I'm also sick of the amount of money that must be going into the coffers of CRB "agents"; not just in this context but also in the dental profession for example where my partner has had to have all her staff CRB'd at the behest of the Dental Council who, once again, are not the "deployer".

Is there an individual out there who is being held over a barrel by the BCU on this and willing to seek legal advice? I for one would be happy to contribute a tenner towards a couple of hours of an employment law specialist solicitors time to clarify the BCU position / legality of this and possibly draft a letter to the BCu asking them to justify their position. Any takers? Anybody else willing to chip in?

Barry
You took the words out of my mouth Barry. And yes, I would chip in.

Just to make it clear, I have no problem with crb's as such, but with the BCU trying to demand I have one needlessly through them. After a phone conversation with the coaching staff at BCU, they said that I'd have to get my employer to sign it to prove my identity. This, then, would result in my new crb being exactly the same as the one that she had signed a couple of months before.

Additionally, all crb's are 'portable'. As long as they are under three years old an employer can accept them. It's only the organisation asking to see it that come up with ridiculous demands for them.

Chris
I'd rather be on exped

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Re: CRB for BCU?

Post by Stannard » Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:41 am

This is an extract from the website of Adventure Accreditation International.

'Another common pre-requisite of outdoor awards, particularly when working with children or vulnerable people is to have a check against official records to ascertain whether there is a previous offence relating to this category on file for that person. Sadly, this is not foolproof as it relies on having already been caught and sentenced and fails to alert against those who have evaded detection, or those who slip through the net by means of changing their location or country and many countries do not operate such a scheme. The AAI expects Leaders to have been checked by the authorities in their home country where one operates and AAI Partners will have up to date checks on file with their employment records. However, as an added safeguard and to cover countries where no checks are made, the AAI insists that at all levels of the scheme AAI Leaders and Masters must never work with young people or vulnerable adults alone, but at all times alongside and with the assistance of other suitable people. This safeguards both the Leader and vulnerable Adventurers.'

AAI can be contacted at info@theworldsoutdoorcommunity.com they would appreciate feedback on this approach to both safeguarding the young and vulnerable and keeping it realistic for those who are kind enough to want to lead them on the water.

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