transfering from BCU to CCUK??

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lowertownfarmB&B
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transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by lowertownfarmB&B » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:22 pm

My husband is a level three kayaking instructor and has his four star award.

I would like to book him into a BCU five star assessment this season. However a friend has told me not to bother because "at some point he will have to transfer his BCU awards to the CCUK and will drop down a level and have to re-take the assessment in order to reach the same point".
Is this correct?

His aim is to instruct on grade three and four whitewater.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by jmmoxon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:33 pm

He may have to do the new 4 star before the new 5 star (I'm not sure on this), but as long as he remains a member the L3 coach award stays with him. Contact your LCO or BCU to confirm.

Mike
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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:44 pm

The BCU will generally accept a 4* and level 3 as satisfying the new 4* prerequisite for enrolling onto a 5* training course. (they did with me)

As Mike says

If he wants to move up the new coaching scheme, he would need to start with a level 2 transfer training course, followed by assessment and then move on to new level 3. If he wants to use the new level 3 on more advanced water, he will need Advance Water Endorsement with the 5*. If he wants to use the new level 2 on more advanced water, he will need Moderate Water Endorsement with the 4* or 5*

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by gonzo » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:49 pm

He will not loose his current L3 qualification at any time, adding a 5* will allow him to LEAD (not coach) on more advanced water.

If at anypoint he did want to transfer onto the new scheme he would need to take the Level 2 transfer course and either be assessed at this level or apply for the Level 3 (L2 training is the min pre-req for attending L3).


Roughly speaking:
UKCC L2 + 4* + Moderate water endorsement + 3* assessor = Old L3

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:53 pm

gonzo wrote:He will not loose his current L3 qualification at any time
Oh to be so emphatic! I understand the term the BCU used was 'indefinitely' which is perhaps a little less .... definite.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:14 pm

lowertownfarmB&B wrote:My husband is a level three kayaking instructor and has his four star award.

I would like to book him into a BCU five star assessment this season. However a friend has told me not to bother because "at some point he will have to transfer his BCU awards to the CCUK and will drop down a level and have to re-take the assessment in order to reach the same point".
Is this correct?

His aim is to instruct on grade three and four whitewater.
First of all, there is no compulsion to transfer at all to the new scheme. Your husband is a L3 Inland Kayak, I hope with lots of experience, and thus he can coach within the remit of his award on Class II (III). It can be argued that, with further training along the lines of Advanced WWS&R training and holding a 5 Star Award, could prove that he has sufficient training to lead and offer coaching to aid the descent on water harder the Class II (III), and with sufficient experience on this, there is no reason that he can coach beyond that difficulty of WW. If however he wishes to work professionally within a Class IV environment, the likes of the Advanced Water Endorsement, when it's finally developed, would be the benchmark for professionals. Alternatively the current L5, is the only coaching award where the assessment is within an advanced environment.

Thus in short: non-professional, the new 5 Star; professional, old L5 or new AWE when it comes.

Gene17 has a 5 star Training 11/12 December on the Dart, Advanced WWS&R 15/16 January 2011 on the Dart, 5 Star Assessment 22/23 January 2011 on Dartmoor, see http://www.gene17.com/kayaking/ for details
Last edited by Simon Westgarth on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by garya » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:27 pm

lowertownfarmB&B wrote:My husband is a level three kayaking instructor and has his four star award.

I would like to book him into a BCU five star assessment this season.
How I wish I had a wife and understanding and generous as you that would book and pay for my paddling course's , your husband is indeed a lucky man.

The routes open to him would be to trasfer straight over to level 2 with MWE, He should be able to APL this as a Level 3. or wait and do the UKCC Level 3 which is just starting to become avaliable.

For the Level 5 assesment he will have need to complete the Level 5 training and Advanced White Water Saftey course before assesment , there is also an LR registration form to submit as well. The star awards are seperate from coach assesments now so the 5 star is a vaild standalone personal performance and leadership award. He would not have to retake the 5 star assesment if he decided to transfer over to UKCC.

The BCU Level 5 is also a route that is currently still avalaiable for Professional coaching on higher grade water.

Gary Archer

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by lowertownfarmB&B » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:37 pm

Thank you for all the quick replies!

And yes - he is lucky to have me as such a caring and lovely wife!

thanks again.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by DanT » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:47 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote: If he wants to use the new level 3 on more advanced water, he will need Advance Water Endorsement with the 5*. If he wants to use the new level 2 on more advanced water, he will need Moderate Water Endorsement with the 4* or 5*
Adrian are you sure Advanced Water Endorsement is going to be an add-on to the UKCC Level 3? Where did you hear this? I heard the AWE will be an add-on onto the UKCC L2 in exactly the same way as the MWE currently is.

MWE = L2 + 4* + MWE training and assessment weekend
AWE = L2 + 5* + something similar still under development

This makes sense, the MWE is about applying L2 coaching skills to the four-star environment (aka Moderate Water, Gd II(III), the Dart Loop). The AWE would surely be applying the same L2 coaching skills to the five star environment (Advanced Water, Gd III-IV(V), the Upper Dart). UKCC L3 isn't appropriate for the AWE - its all about longer-term paddler development, mentoring people over a year, and (depending who you talk to) more focused on competitive disciplines. Similar to an old L5.

I'm interested in this question as I would like my AWE, but probably wouldn't want to do my UKCC L3. The MWE weekend was absolutely excellent and would now love to use my L2 coaching and 5* leader skills in a similar way... I want the equivalent of an old L4.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:02 pm

DanT wrote:Adrian are you sure Advanced Water Endorsement is going to be an add-on to the UKCC Level 3? Where did you hear this? I heard the AWE will be an add-on onto the UKCC L2 in exactly the same way as the MWE currently is.

MWE = L2 + 4* + MWE training and assessment weekend
AWE = L2 + 5* + something similar still under development

This makes sense, the MWE is about applying L2 coaching skills to the four-star environment (aka Moderate Water, Gd II(III), the Dart Loop). The AWE would surely be applying the same L2 coaching skills to the five star environment (Advanced Water, Gd III-IV(V), the Upper Dart). UKCC L3 isn't appropriate for the AWE - its all about longer-term paddler development, mentoring people over a year, and (depending who you talk to) more focused on competitive disciplines. Similar to an old L5.

I'm interested in this question as I would like my AWE, but probably wouldn't want to do my UKCC L3. The MWE weekend was absolutely excellent and would now love to use my L2 coaching and 5* leader skills in a similar way... I want the equivalent to an old L4.
Dan, where if at all the AWE fits in, is currently a debate, my take is:

The new UKCC L3 is a Developmental Coach role, and as such fits in where the L5 Coaching stands at present, but not the same river environment. Thus the AWE should be a bolt on for UKCC L2, which is a regular Coach role. A Developmental Coach with AWE would be on par with the current L5. The BCU's plan is to run 2-3 UKCC L3 Training courses a year, and as such is very much on par with the current L5.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:11 pm

DanT wrote:
Adrian Cooper wrote:Adrian are you sure Advanced Water Endorsement is going to be an add-on to the UKCC Level 3? Where did you hear this? I heard the AWE will be an add-on onto the UKCC L2 in exactly the same way as the MWE currently is.
Oops, perhaps I was assuming that this is how it would work, it seemed logical. I understand the AWE and anything further than the new L3 is all still under development or maybe even shelved. Who knows?

What Simon says makes sense too.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by DanT » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:18 pm

So what is the progress of the AWE debate / development / shelving??

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:34 pm

DanT wrote:So what is the progress of the AWE debate / development / shelving??
We've probably given it wider comment than the BCU. Still I understand that once a decision of where it will fit in occurs, then the outline of the award and content will be undertaken.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:36 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote: The BCU's plan is to run 2-3 UKCC L3 Training courses a year, and as such is very much on par with the current L5.
So, on that basis, do you anticipate that the highes UKCC approved qualification will be L3 with AWE? Certainly I've heard absolutely nothing about a new level 4 or level 5 and this only 5 years after the start of the process.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:40 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
Simon Westgarth wrote: The BCU's plan is to run 2-3 UKCC L3 Training courses a year, and as such is very much on par with the current L5.
So, on that basis, do you anticipate that the highes UKCC approved qualification will be L3 with AWE? Certainly I've heard absolutely nothing about a new level 4 or level 5 and this only 5 years after the start of the process.
I would say the UKCC L3 with AWE is as far as a working coach is likely to go. There may be scope for a national developmental coach for competitive disciplines, that may be UKCC L4, and as such 2-6 individuals may obtain this, if at all.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by gonzo » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:45 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:
DanT wrote:
Adrian Cooper wrote:Adrian are you sure Advanced Water Endorsement is going to be an add-on to the UKCC Level 3? Where did you hear this? I heard the AWE will be an add-on onto the UKCC L2 in exactly the same way as the MWE currently is.
Oops, perhaps I was assuming that this is how it would work, it seemed logical. I understand the AWE and anything further than the new L3 is all still under development or maybe even shelved. Who knows?

What Simon says makes sense too.
The UKCC disipline specific training is about to be launched, I've heard nothing on AWE at present but know it will be coming online soon. At the moment I've undertaken the UKCC L3 core training as part of a pilot but am awaiting news of the disipline specific training to begin.

Currently the remit of the UKCC L3 is no different to what you can do as an old L3 or new L2 + 4* + MW + 3* assessor. I would expect a bolt on to be available to increase this remit (similar to old L4) so maybe the AWE will fit in there (or then again you might be able to access it through UKCC L2 + 5*).

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:28 pm

gonzo wrote:The UKCC disipline specific training is about to be launched, I've heard nothing on AWE at present but know it will be coming online soon. At the moment I've undertaken the UKCC L3 core training as part of a pilot but am awaiting news of the disipline specific training to begin.

Currently the remit of the UKCC L3 is no different to what you can do as an old L3 or new L2 + 4* + MW + 3* assessor. I would expect a bolt on to be available to increase this remit (similar to old L4) so maybe the AWE will fit in there (or then again you might be able to access it through UKCC L2 + 5*).
As I see it;
  • ::BCU L2 was a flat water coach, but they could work on their own, unlike UKCC L1 which is an Assist Coach
    ::UKCC L2 is in effect a FULL Coach award, with considerable comprehension of CP and can work on their own and over see Assist Coaches. This was not the case for the BCU L2
    ::BCU L3 Inland is the first FULL Coach award of the old system, focusing on the environment of the coaching
    ::MWE is the bolt on from UKCC L2 to be a WW Coach, and although equivalent in environment to BCU L3 Inland, it's range of coaching solutions is considerably more.
    ::UKCC L3 is a Developmental Coach, where the application of CP is both comprehensive and wide reaching, and on par with the old BCU L5
    ::AWE is likely to be a bolt on to UKCC L2, and a further enhancement of coaching with an advanced environment. The coach would not expect to be developing coaching programmes, like a UKCC L3.
    ::BCU L4 was an none assessed yet accreditation for Advanced BCU L3 Inland Coaches, where by the AWE would be a more appropriate award for those Coaches wishing to work in a more advanced environment.
    ::BCU L5, the old Developmental Coach within a specific environment, and perhaps the UKCC L3 with AWE is the modern equivalence.
There will be lots of paddler's jumping on the UKCC L3, but once they see the development phrase required, they may opt for the AWE as the way forward. If you are heading on to the UKCC L3, it pretty much means the same as the L5 Training course, yet set within the UKCC framework, focusing on LTPD. At present I would suggest that the BCU settle the AWE frame work and offer this sooner rather than later, so UKCC L2 & BCU L3 Inland Coaches have a clear choice of whether its Professional Developmental Coach or Coach working in an advanced environment. To much hesitation on this matter will lead to disappointment in coaches heading in a less fruitful direction.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by gonzo » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:39 pm

Simon Westgarth wrote:There will be lots of paddler's jumping on the UKCC L3, but once they see the development phrase required, they may opt for the AWE as the way forward.

I agree that most coaches see the route from UKCC L2 is to go to UKCC L3 but in actual fact most are best suited to developing 4*/5* and MWE(+AWE) bolt ons.

The UKCC L3 is focussed around LTPD and yearly development plans - A massive jump from where most recreational paddlers probably need to be. The 11 days of training just to be a UKCC L3 coach in ONE disipline is a huge commitment!

I was fortunate to be on a pilot for coach educators and found most of the concepts similar to L5 level. Very interesting but most of the concepts were degree level sports science!!

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:43 am

Soooo....

L2 assesses 2*
L3 assesses 3* (there's going to be a lot of catching up there)
There is no level 4 or level 5
So under the new system who assesses 4* and 5* - is there a new assessor grade or are the coach educators doing this, what is the 'system' or is it just a bit ad hoc for a select few chosen commercial coaches? How does a current L2 get to L3 and then get to assess these higher skills awards?

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:16 am

Adrian Cooper wrote:Soooo...
There is no level 4 or level 5
So under the new system who assesses 4* and 5* - is there a new assessor grade or are the coach educators doing this, what is the 'system' or is it just a bit ad hoc for a select few chosen commercial coaches? How does a current L2 get to L3 and then get to assess these higher skills awards?
I would imagine that MWE will assess 4 Star & AWE 5 Star, but they may insist that 5 Star trainers have the UKCC L3.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by garya » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:47 am

This is the current document that outlines the process for becomming a 4* Assessor.

Basically it is a BCU L3 or UKCC L2 (held for three years ?) Plus the 5* award. I assume the UKCC would also need the MWE as well.


http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/media/p ... 230908.pdf

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Jonny Kennedy » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:10 am

I'm glad this is all so simple.. :)

So I am a BCU level 3, with 5 star and someone still keen to develop my coaching experience and other paddlers skills set.. Should I bother with coaching processes and BCU L5 training or wait to do MWE?
Someone can pick me if they need a guinea pig on these pilot courses because at the moment that seems the easiest way to progress.

Jonny

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:57 am

kenna wrote:I'm glad this is all so simple.. :)

So I am a BCU level 3, with 5 star and someone still keen to develop my coaching experience and other paddlers skills set.. Should I bother with coaching processes and BCU L5 training or wait to do MWE?
Someone can pick me if they need a guinea pig on these pilot courses because at the moment that seems the easiest way to progress.

Jonny
The MWE is already out, but unfortunately the BCU have been slightly short slighted in wanting everyone to be UKCC L2. I would of preferred if these non-UKCC awards like MWE & AWE were open to all, I think the up take would be significantly more than at present. The MWE is not popular, although in a few years it may be more so, as the numbers of paddler's with UKCC L2 and 4 Star come through.

Jonny, the choice is L5 or UKCC L3, both are a pathway to developmental coach, and both will hold weight as a professional coach. As you have the choice perhaps wait to hear back from those who have done the real UKCC L3 Training, not the pilot (the have been several pilots, and the course has changed a lot through this process), to see what the path way to assessment looks like.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:25 pm

From BCU L3, the transfer course would be UKCC L2 training, then UKCC L3.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:41 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:From BCU L3, the transfer course would be UKCC L2 training, then UKCC L3.
Adrian, they are letting BCU L3's jump straight to UKCC L3, but I would say, do the UKCC L2, as the whole UKCC process, is some what different from the old BCU scheme, and those whom have transfer via a UKCC L2 Transfer Module have been swamped with the level of work required.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:53 pm

I don't know how you find out this stuff, I scour the website only to find:
This page doesn't have any content assigned yet.

Please check again shortly.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Simon Westgarth » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:44 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:I don't know how you find out this stuff, I scour the website only to find:
This page doesn't have any content assigned yet.

Please check again shortly.
Ahh one of the National Trainer's who ran the first real UKCC L3 was at my house in Slovenia working for Gene17 last week. And of course, what I have commented on, is my take based on the conversation I have had with him and others, but as it's not in print, you can surmise that it's not signed off as yet.

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Jonny Kennedy » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:59 pm

Thanks for the advice,
So people will eventually post on here with feedback from a UKCC level 3 trainee's course... someone could say 'its brilliant, the next step' someone else could give negative feedback. Is the BCU L5 coach being withdrawn or phased out or will it hold weight for years to come, even if and when the UKCC level 3 + AWE becomes the way forward?
Im happy leading recreationally on advanced water and in no hurry to chase the ticket for making money purposes but it would be useful to progress now rather than put it off another year so the outdoor charity I volunteer at can benefit sooner too.

Jonny

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by Adrian Cooper » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:04 pm

The thing is Kenna, as ever, it is a shambles.

The BCU are running a new system which, after 5 years, has only just introduced the new L3 although the training for the old L3 was curtailed a couple of years ago. The old L4 has been suspended but the L5 is still not only recognised but people are still obtaining that qualification. Under the new system, there is no news whatsoever of the L4 and as Simon says, it may never get off the ground. The MWE and AWE were only introduced because the coaching scheme was inadequate for the uses to which it was being put. The UKCC never liked these endorsements.

I have had feedback from people on the L3 training that, since the L2 coaching skills are so all encompassing, at L3, they run out of new coaching stuff to teach you. It becomes all about the planning. Interestingly, I have also heard that if you want to do more than one dicipline at L3, you have to do these sequentially, so that will be one year to get one and two years to get 2. Great if you are trying to run a business!

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Re: transfering from BCU to CCUK??

Post by gonzo » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:42 pm

Adrian Cooper wrote:The thing is Kenna, as ever, it is a shambles.

The BCU are running a new system which, after 5 years, has only just introduced the new L3 although the training for the old L3 was curtailed a couple of years ago. The old L4 has been suspended but the L5 is still not only recognised but people are still obtaining that qualification. Under the new system, there is no news whatsoever of the L4 and as Simon says, it may never get off the ground. The MWE and AWE were only introduced because the coaching scheme was inadequate for the uses to which it was being put. The UKCC never liked these endorsements.

I have had feedback from people on the L3 training that, since the L2 coaching skills are so all encompassing, at L3, they run out of new coaching stuff to teach you. It becomes all about the planning. Interestingly, I have also heard that if you want to do more than one dicipline at L3, you have to do these sequentially, so that will be one year to get one and two years to get 2. Great if you are trying to run a business!

I suspect there will be no UKCC L4. We need to re-think the way we progress upwards, under the new scheme you progress outwards e.g. the natural progression from UKCC L2 is not direct to UKCC L3.

The UKCC L3 is more about planning a yearly development plan (hence your comment on planning). At the moment the remit of UKCC L3 and UKCC L2 + 4* + MWE + 3 star log is the same!

The bolt-ons to UKCC L2 allow coaches to develop outwards:
e.g. UKCC L2 + 4* + MWE + 3 star log roughtly equates to old L3
UKCC L2 +AWE (???) should roughly equate to old L4

Note that you can become a 4* assessor from adding on an additional course.

See overview of the new scheme: http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/media/p ... 201-10.pdf

BCU L5 should still exist as the top of the tree and will probably exist outside of the UKCC scheme. A route for the 'experts' in our sport, national trainers, etc.

Comments from my UKCC L3 core training is that it was very similar to the concepts at L5

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