Scout if you can't see...

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James Hartley
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by James Hartley »

wezzzy wrote:
I often miss "must make moves" and still survive the run/drop, does this raise or lower the grade? :)

Are they must make moves then ???
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Ricks-Freestyle-Mind »

James Hartley wrote:
wezzzy wrote:
I often miss "must make moves" and still survive the run/drop, does this raise or lower the grade? :)

Are they must make moves then ???
Exactly! Can't be a must make move...

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Strad »

wezzzy wrote:
So, if you don't make the moves successfully does this change the grade?
I often miss "must make moves" and still survive the run/drop, does this raise or lower the grade? :)
I think we now need to consider this using relativity, the grade is relative to the observers position, all the time I am getting trashed the rapid would be a definite 5, however observers from a different view point will continue to consider only 3 / 4....
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Poke »

Jim wrote:Also, if you live within 10 miles of a run it is a local run (even if you have never done it) so you should consider it 3 grades easier than listed in the guidebook.
What happens in this instance when your local run is a grade 2?
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by banzer »

Maybe if a run has a lot of wood in it we could call it 'grade tree' (the Kiachnish springs to mind).... this would also make it easier for our Irish boating friends.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by wezzzy »

James Hartley wrote:
wezzzy wrote:
I often miss "must make moves" and still survive the run/drop, does this raise or lower the grade? :)

Are they must make moves then ???
Some people think so, I suppose we can call them "you really should make that move or it all goes t#ts up"

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Adrian Cooper »

Ricks-Freestyle-Mind wrote: There's a difference between looking and paddling something.
Someone famous once said that the length of time you spend looking at a rapid is directly proportional to the length of time you spend recirculating in it.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by steddyjames »

There's only three grades... yes, no and fingers crossed.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by SwamP »

Hahaha I really liked that one Banzer, dirty Irish feckers, snarl.

This thread is ironically so funny!

So we're all in agreement that there aren't any G5 drops on Scottish classics as they've been run so often?
Lets not try to understand each other. Thanks.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Jim »

Poke wrote:
Jim wrote:Also, if you live within 10 miles of a run it is a local run (even if you have never done it) so you should consider it 3 grades easier than listed in the guidebook.
What happens in this instance when your local run is a grade 2?
Anything local below grade 3 can be considered as a swimming pool, i.e. grades don't apply and the water will always be warm and clean (apart from chemicals that make your eyes sting)

Do remember you can drown in a puddle if you try hard enough, so even grade 'swimming pool' carries some inherent risk.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Jim »

Ryan P wrote:This thread is ironically so funny!

So we're all in agreement that there aren't any G5 drops on Scottish classics as they've been run so often?
No no no, they are still grade 5 to a person that hasn't run them before, grade 4 if you have, grade 3 if you know them well and grade 2 if they are within 10 miles of home.

I'm glad I don't live somewhere like Kinlochleven :-)

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by jmmoxon »

No no no, they are still grade 5 to a person that hasn't run them before, grade 4 if you have
What about when you haven't paddled it, but someone with you has - is that grade 4.5??

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by MK123 »

kieronymous wrote:
Chrace wrote: probe to resuce your ass
Really not keen on probes near my ass.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Jim »

jmmoxon wrote:
No no no, they are still grade 5 to a person that hasn't run them before, grade 4 if you have
What about when you haven't paddled it, but someone with you has - is that grade 4.5??

Mike
Er, I think this came about due to need to inspect, so if being with someone who has run it before means you don't need to scout it must be grade 4, if it means you do need to scout then it wold be grade 5, but I guess if you have someone to talk you through the line when you scout that probably does reduce it to 4.5. Yep, lets go with that.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by jmmoxon »

Unfortunately that also brings into play grades 2.3, 2.4, 2.5 and 3.4 & 3.5!

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Last edited by jmmoxon on Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by jmmoxon »

There's only three grades... yes, no and fingers crossed.
You forgot: maybe - not today...maybe - oh no the probe got trashed & maybe - okay he made it look easy...

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by neil.farmer »

On a similar note to Banzer, I was on the kinglas in July, persuaded to run the final gd4 (under old bridge) without checking for trees. First time without a quick scout in 20+ runs. Ran slot, came into boily pool up against a semi submerged tree..... Someone is telling me something....
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by DaveBland »

"checking for wood" is always my fall back when I'm having a bad day. What it really means is "I'm paddling like a gimp and want to inspect that 2 ft ripple", but don't want the P*ss taken coz my fragile ego won't handle it.

Seriously though, wood kills and it's not worth gambling. Nice reminder.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Chrace »

MK123 wrote:
kieronymous wrote:
Chrace wrote: probe to resuce your ass
Really not keen on probes near my ass.
Especially if they end up recirculating in the same hole as you.

(And how on earth did you ever get to quote me that? :) )

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by jmmoxon »

kieronymous wrote:
Chrace wrote:The only way to run grade 5 is to force everyone to go scout it
I do hope you're kidding! On many rivers this would result in a LONG day (and night!). Sometimes you have to have some faith in the scout (and/or the probe to resuce your ass) and just go where you're told to go...!
By bad editting!

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by banzer »

Went and had a good look at the boulder on the Crack of Dawn yesterday at low low water. It's well wedged in and probably beyond levering away. I suggest either a) a hammer drill, some big metal spikes and a sledge hammer + many hours hard work; b) the same, but using dynamite (anyone got any??); c) wait for the next huge flood; or (d) just paddle down the right, down the main tongue. There are rocks down there and you'll bounce off them, but it all flushes downstream. Just keep your nose up as best you can.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by hoolabloom »

Two grades! Yes or no. MAde on the basis of your opinion at the time.

Now add in to this a tree hidden on a known route and well there is the failing of my grading system. However.........

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by neil.farmer »

hoolabloom wrote:Two grades! Yes or no. MAde on the basis of your opinion at the time.

Now add in to this a tree hidden on a known route and well there is the failing of my grading system. However.........
The old argument stating that grades are not necessary. Grading is there to ensure that you get on the correct river, don't overextend yourself or put your group in danger. Once on the river, personal judgement & risk assessment takes over. That can be oversimplified to "yes" or "no".

Let's get back to the crucial original post, if you can't see, cut out the bravado, don't leave it to chance & look! You have to be lucky everytime, the obstruction has to be lucky once.

Banzer, is the "crack of Dawn" the first or second one.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by George Mcmillan »

The rock is well and truely wedged in the Crack of Dawn which is the second one. The first one is Crack of Doom.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Notters »

Banzer,

What did you do with the tree if it took 3 of you to pull it out. is it up on the bank way out of the way. Given the level the etive can reach. I would hate to get further down and it be lodged somewhere else.

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by banzer »

A valid question...

We carried it to about 20 feet above the river on the left just after Letterbox. Check it out when you're next there. Any flood big enough to move it is taking it right out to sea I reckon! Though be my guest if you want to move it higher still.
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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Tom_Laws »

Jim Pullen wrote:Is it like Schrodinger's cat?

When you can't observe it, it's both a grade 4 and 6 at the same time and only by running it do you determine which state its in? ;-b

Heisenburg was pulled over by the police while driving the other day. The policeman got him to wind down the window... "excuse me sir, do you know how fast you were going?"

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by jmmoxon »

Heisenberg should have looked it up in "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy mark II"

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by Jim »

banzer wrote:Went and had a good look at the boulder on the Crack of Dawn yesterday at low low water. It's well wedged in and probably beyond levering away. I suggest either a) a hammer drill, some big metal spikes and a sledge hammer + many hours hard work; b) the same, but using dynamite (anyone got any??); c) wait for the next huge flood; or (d) just paddle down the right, down the main tongue. There are rocks down there and you'll bounce off them, but it all flushes downstream. Just keep your nose up as best you can.
I have to say I'm not really convinced about moving or destroying rocks to clean up rapids.

For years the crack of dawn was considered a portage for exactly the sort of hazard of you seem to be describing - boulders in the plunge pool which had vertically pinned a number of boats. Then nature shuffled things about it and a line opened up making the run easiier than the portage at most levels. Now it sounds like nature has blocked it up again, I would prefer for the rapid to return to being considered as a high vertical pin risk and best portaged than for paddlers to be seen to be willing to much about with the river bed on a whim - especially since things were at one time a considerable levering tool in a long running battle with a fishing concern.

I bet you youngsters have never had the experience of running the Etive high and having to portage left round the crack of dawn and seal launching from the higher ledge (because the lower one was covered) into the mini gorge below. Actually when it was really high the boulders were mostly out of contention if you had the balls to run the fall right and miss the wall as it turns 90 degrees in the landing zone (observed, I never had the balls myself). I'm pretty sure all guides mention the fact that the Crack of Dawn changes fairly frequently, it is a great example of how rivers change and should be held up as an example, not just cleaned up after every change.

Now, removing the tree I see differently, I completely agree with that, but can't produce a justification for why to remove trees but not rocks......
Maybe I'm I'm just an old fart with wierd views?

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Re: Scout if you can't see...

Post by TheKrikkitWars »

Jim wrote:
banzer wrote:Went and had a good look at the boulder on the Crack of Dawn yesterday at low low water. It's well wedged in and probably beyond levering away. I suggest either a) a hammer drill, some big metal spikes and a sledge hammer + many hours hard work; b) the same, but using dynamite (anyone got any??); c) wait for the next huge flood; or (d) just paddle down the right, down the main tongue. There are rocks down there and you'll bounce off them, but it all flushes downstream. Just keep your nose up as best you can.
I have to say I'm not really convinced about moving or destroying rocks to clean up rapids.

For years the crack of dawn was considered a portage for exactly the sort of hazard of you seem to be describing - boulders in the plunge pool which had vertically pinned a number of boats. Then nature shuffled things about it and a line opened up making the run easiier than the portage at most levels. Now it sounds like nature has blocked it up again, I would prefer for the rapid to return to being considered as a high vertical pin risk and best portaged than for paddlers to be seen to be willing to much about with the river bed on a whim - especially since things were at one time a considerable levering tool in a long running battle with a fishing concern.

I bet you youngsters have never had the experience of running the Etive high and having to portage left round the crack of dawn and seal launching from the higher ledge (because the lower one was covered) into the mini gorge below. Actually when it was really high the boulders were mostly out of contention if you had the balls to run the fall right and miss the wall as it turns 90 degrees in the landing zone (observed, I never had the balls myself). I'm pretty sure all guides mention the fact that the Crack of Dawn changes fairly frequently, it is a great example of how rivers change and should be held up as an example, not just cleaned up after every change.

Now, removing the tree I see differently, I completely agree with that, but can't produce a justification for why to remove trees but not rocks......
Maybe I'm I'm just an old fart with wierd views?
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