CRB's (move from CODE)

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Jay Oram
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CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Jay Oram » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:41 pm

Just moving the subject over after kind of hijacking another thread, sorry about that 'twopigs' it was not meant to distract away from the subject.

Continue here...

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:04 pm

Jay Oram wrote:I just filled out a CRB form and the ISA stuff was on there, so I don't think it was scrapped Adrian, or it is optional I'm not sure. Why would the fact people would ask about a CRB cause you to straight away think of libel or slander, it's the same as do you have a driving licence or coaching qualification surely? I'm not saying you are unfit for the post, just asking why it would offend?
The ISA info was added to the form before the ISA was shelved. I'll admit that the government is 'reviewing' the scheme.

I don't mind people asking me about CRB, that's not what I said.

It's not the same as having a driving licence or coaching qualification. Either of these provides a positive critique of your actual abilities.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by BaldockBabe » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:32 pm

"If you could prevent a 'tiny risk' while on the river, I'm sure you would take steps to safeguard against it, why not treat children the same."

Actually I disagree. We wear helmets to help prefent serious head injury and BAs to help reduce the chance of drowning, but if we were to take steps to safeguard against "tiny" risks we would be in full body suits and wearing scuba grear. Oh, no, that wouldn't work, what if the scuba grear broke down or the body suit ripped? Best not get on or near the water at all.

We cannot stop everything bad happening in the world. If we could, I am sure we would have all worked hard to do it by now. We can work together to lessen the bad things that happen, but a CRB check will not achieve this. I am sure the group working in a nursery all had CRB checks before they started their jobs, did it stop them from producing indecent pictures of young children and putting them on the internet? Clearly not. Would it have stopped the Soham Murders? Unlikely, Ian Huntly had been suspected but never arrested or convicted of some sexual offences, thus they wouldn't have shown up on his CRB check and rightly so, as he had not been found guilty of these offences.

If every parent/ grandparent/ sibling/ friend of the family had to have a CRB check there would be an uproar, this group would hate to feel that they had to prove themselves innocent before they could spend time with their kids/ grandkids/ brothers/ sisters etc yet this is the group that is statistically the most likely to offend. If they woudn't like it why should those of us who volunteer to help like it any more?

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by shanclan » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:44 pm

If you could prevent a 'tiny risk' while on the river, I'm sure you would take steps to safeguard against it, why not treat children the same.
We all take relatively large risks all the time on the river (including with children). We might take some action to mitigate them, but the aim is to balance risk and reward.

If the government wanted to reduce the risk to children and vulnerable adults, then there are a number of much more effective ways of doing this. The first priority would be to ban alcohol - this would massively reduce (guessing: halve?) violent and abusive behaviour. The second priority would be to ban all cars thereby removing the biggest cause of accidental death. They aren't going to do either of these things, because we as a a society are prepared to accept a very high risk in return for the benefits that booze and fast cars bring.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:57 pm

Yes, the benefits of booze? A high level of taxation which can help us to afford the bureaucracy.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Jay Oram » Mon Aug 16, 2010 6:23 pm

So are you saying you would rather take a little risk on a childs safety than have all coaches fill out a CRB form. Well I disagree but I am obviously fighting a losing battle.

If there was a better way, I would do it that way, I agree the system needs to be changed, and have always believed this, but I would still back some sort of resgistration so anyone could check on eligibility to work with children and vulnerable adults.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by GoldTopo » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:19 pm

Don't forget, a CRB check only shows up those who have been caught.....

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by shanclan » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:56 pm

Jay Oram wrote:So are you saying you would rather take a little risk on a childs safety than have all coaches fill out a CRB form. Well I disagree but I am obviously fighting a losing battle.

If there was a better way, I would do it that way, I agree the system needs to be changed, and have always believed this, but I would still back some sort of resgistration so anyone could check on eligibility to work with children and vulnerable adults.

Jay
Yes, that is what I am saying (not sure about others). Not because I can't be 4rsed to fill out a form, not because I think it is a particular infringement of my human rights, but because children's safety (from abuse) is damaged by adopting a form-based, negative, centralised approach that is based on a lack of trust.

I am sure that you would agree that a child's best protection from abuse is to maximise the number and quality of his/her relationships with adults. Having a network of caring and emotionally involved adults (teachers, doctors, nurses, neighbours, coaches, bus drivers, bus drivers, lollipop men etc) that they trust gives a child somewhere to go. The CRB culture undermines the nature of these relationships and forces adults to remain remote. It therefore acts in direct opposition to what is best for children in the wider sense.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by James G » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:44 pm

Jay Oram wrote:So are you saying you would rather take a little risk on a childs safety than have all coaches fill out a CRB form. Well I disagree but I am obviously fighting a losing battle.
I'm a schoolteacher. I only coach students from my school. My school holds a CRB check on me. The County holds a second CRB on me because I run DofE with the kids at my school. The BCU now wants another CRB check on me to coach the same kids. I don't see how the second or third check have helped in any way to keep these kids safer. Unfortunately, they have done much more damage than simply causing me to replicate paperwork. They drain (many) thousands of pounds from councils and organisations like the BCU. It is my firm opinion that this money could be spent in ways that benefit children far more, e.g. providing more social workers so that they can have a lower case load and hence spend more time with those at risk or helping to get more kids on the water so that they can benefit from the developmental opportunities that paddlesport can provide.

It's great that the BCU should provide a CRB service to allow one check to cover a coach for several clubs, but there are many other coaches for whom it is totally pointless because they will coach through an employer who will have carried out their own CRB check or because they only coach adults. The BCU should not waste money insisting that these coaches have CRB checks.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Adrian Cooper » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:19 pm

The BCU are of course following (blindly) the advice of the Sports quangos. They have not carried out their own analysis of the requirements.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by jmmoxon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:58 pm

The BCU are of course following (blindly) the advice of the Sports quangos. They have not carried out their own analysis of the requirements.
No, but they weren't given much choice by the government - I believe that checks are free for volunteers - but does that mean the government (our taxes) are paying for it?

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:08 pm

Every two years my will be renewed by my employer, Education Authority.

I'm neutral about the whole idea but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by shanclan » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:38 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote:...... but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.
No we don't.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by jmmoxon » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:01 pm

If the original plan for the ISA happened then it would be worthwhile - a central database that organisations buy into with a single payment & they will then be informed should anything appear relating to that person. CRBs just make it harder for everyone.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by AlexC » Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:04 pm

shanclan wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:...... but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.
No we don't.
Quite right shanclan.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by meatballs » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:49 am

Scots_Charles_River wrote:Every two years my will be renewed by my employer, Education Authority.

I'm neutral about the whole idea but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.

Nick
I missed some of the background for this. Would the BCU be rechecking on a yearly basis or something so they can state that all qualified BCU coaches are CRB checked? Is it enhanced or standard?

Is it just to safeguard children or do they refuse qualification on other grounds for just being not the right sort?

If they are doing a one off check they are likely to be overlooked by the police, or whoever informs people of this stuff, if someone is convicted. Bad news if people then have a misplaced trust in the qualification and bad for the BCU if something like that slipped through (as well as all victims ofc).

Any organisation is recommended to redo their own checks anyway so it just seems like redundant paperwork? Most kids coaches do it as part of a club, charity or outdoor activity centre who should do their own checks. The only people it would benefit would be self-employed coaches who coach kids privately as you can't CRB check yourself, but these would be the minority of coaches?
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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by SimonMW » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:07 am

Unlikely, Ian Huntly had been suspected but never arrested or convicted of some sexual offences, thus they wouldn't have shown up on his CRB check and rightly so, as he had not been found guilty of these offences.
Not to mention the fact that he didn't even work at the same school as the girls. He could have been the local bank manager and he still would have committed the crime.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Dave McCraw » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:30 am

Scots_Charles_River wrote:...... but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.
Well, the straightforward and foolproof way to protect children in paddlesport from molestation is to remove children from paddlesport - this will protect the maximum possible number of children from abuse, so it's clearly better than any alternative!

Ideas like this are rife in society and make very little sense. Yet, I'd argue in a practical sense that it's already happening, with fewer people to jump through the hoops there are inevitably fewer opportunities for children to enjoy.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by twopigs » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:38 pm

meatballs wrote:I missed some of the background for this. Would the BCU be rechecking on a yearly basis or something so they can state that all qualified BCU coaches are CRB checked? Is it enhanced or standard?

Is it just to safeguard children or do they refuse qualification on other grounds for just being not the right sort?

If they are doing a one off check they are likely to be overlooked by the police, or whoever informs people of this stuff, if someone is convicted. Bad news if people then have a misplaced trust in the qualification and bad for the BCU if something like that slipped through (as well as all victims ofc).

Any organisation is recommended to redo their own checks anyway so it just seems like redundant paperwork? Most kids coaches do it as part of a club, charity or outdoor activity centre who should do their own checks. The only people it would benefit would be self-employed coaches who coach kids privately as you can't CRB check yourself, but these would be the minority of coaches?
As I understand it the BCU should be getting us to redo them every three years as part of the coach update cycle (like your First Aid qual), but .....

Again as I understand it - standard disclosures have gone, CRB only do enhanced disclosures now.

As part of a club we get ours done through the BCU - not sure what hoops we would have to jump through to be able to get CRBs.

Redundant paperwork? Pretty much so as they are non-transferrable - imagine having to get cash from every shop you used because they don't accept other shops "cash". The introduction of the ISA VBS should sort this all out in a few more years - afterall it was only 2004 that it was recommended that it be set up. So no real hurry. If you recall the chaos which happened when CRB was set up you'll understand why Governments are keen to phase in the new scheme - one idea I have heard is that we go through the ISA VBS when our CRB is three years old.... and of course new entrants into working in schools, hospitals, etc have to go through the ISA VBS before they can start.
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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Adrian Cooper » Wed Aug 18, 2010 2:55 pm

meatballs wrote: Most kids coaches do it as part of a club, charity or outdoor activity centre who should do their own checks.
Individual clubs are not able to obtain CRB checks. They would have to do this through some 'approved' organisation which in this case would be the BCU.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Dr Robin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:51 pm

James G wrote:My school holds a CRB check on me. The County holds a second CRB on me because I run DofE with the kids at my school. The BCU now wants another CRB check on me to coach the same kids. I don't see how the second or third check have helped in any way to keep these kids safer. Unfortunately, they have done much more damage than simply causing me to replicate paperwork. They drain (many) thousands of pounds from councils and organisations like the BCU.
Out of curiousity (I know nothing about this topic), why is the CRB process so difficult? Surely it's a trivial task to search a database for convictions? In principle, why couldn't a CRB be done over the phone in seconds? Policemen do similar checks over their radios when they see something suspicious...

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by BaldockBabe » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:25 pm

Dr Robin wrote:
Out of curiousity (I know nothing about this topic), why is the CRB process so difficult? Surely it's a trivial task to search a database for convictions? In principle, why couldn't a CRB be done over the phone in seconds? Policemen do similar checks over their radios when they see something suspicious...
Because by making it more complicated the previous government was able to carry on it's policy of non-job creation???

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by banzer » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:34 pm

Dr Robin wrote: why couldn't a CRB be done over the phone in seconds? Policemen do similar checks over their radios when they see something suspicious...
My thoughts entirely. I have been unable to work as a dentist for three months since returning from Oz while waiting for mine to be done. anyone fancy being without income for quarter of a year with a mortgage to pay? It's not nice. Am currently working in Scotland where they have accepted a previous check. To quote the Mail, "it's political correctness gone mad"!
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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Dr Robin » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:44 pm

banzer wrote:I have been unable to work as a dentist for three months since returning from Oz while waiting for mine to be done.
WHAT??!! That's madness!

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Kayacb » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:01 pm

It took 5 months for my CRB to come through.

Each individual police force does it's own chcek and it has to be finished with before being sent back to the centeral office and then being deployed to the next force. for some stupid reason it's done by paper and not electronically. If said paperwork is misplaced you have to wait for the 10 week period to be up before you can chase it.

Then you have to wait for a letter from CRB before you can contact the force it's currently with. then the process starts all over again. I bypassed this by lying to which ever force the last one had said it had gone to and searching the net for the phone number of the disclosure office.

I do not understand why it's not a big ole database either but it is what it is and we just have to suck it up. But really, nearly every profession can find an excuse to do a crb, they all cough up the money for it and never grumble.

So, whilst organisations are willing to jump the hoops and not contest the system, what else can you do?

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by jmmoxon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:09 pm

To be fair most CRBs come through in 3-4 weeks now, unless you've been working overseas (Banzer) or there is some other issue with the form (e.g. lost)

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Scots_Charles_River » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 pm

Dave McCraw wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:...... but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.
Well, the straightforward and foolproof way to protect children in paddlesport from molestation is to remove children from paddlesport - this will protect the maximum possible number of children from abuse, so it's clearly better than any alternative!
You have not fully quoted me, However up here, a club or organisation can check with the SCA if someone has been checked.

What other system can work ?
Dave McCraw wrote:Ideas like this are rife in society and make very little sense. Yet, I'd argue in a practical sense that it's already happening, with fewer people to jump through the hoops there are inevitably fewer opportunities for children to enjoy.
There is definitely no drop in teacher course applicants or numbers due to our system of checks for Child and Vunerable adult Protection. Budget cuts for schools/centres/councils have reduced opportunites more than any form of CRB/CP checks. This is since 94 when I started teaching.

Up here I could apply for one in my own name and by myself. But my employer did. I have a copy of it.
http://www.disclosurescotland.co.uk/what-is-disclosure/

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by James G » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:18 pm

Scots_Charles_River wrote: What other system can work ?
How about a central database so that anyone can ring up with my National Insurance number and a password only known to me to be told instantly whether I have any convictions? (Along the line of the service that the ISA would have provided).

How about accepting that some risks are involved in any activity and that the amount of money that is required to prevent a tiny amount of abuse through the CRB system could help a lot more kids if spent elsewhere?

How about not allowing one to one unsupervised contact time between coaches and children?

How about notching the ears or tatooing the foreheads of child abusers so that they can be easily identified?

How about trusting that the vast majority of those who work with children have the kids best interests at heart?

Those are just a few suggestions, all of which would work although perhaps some would be more acceptable than others.

I looked into joining the local competition based canoe club lately. I decided not to join because it states on their website that all adults joining the club have to be CRB checked. As a teacher I obviously have nothing to hide, but I don't want to join a club where every new adult is seen as a potential child molesterer and where the management have such little regard for the amount of their governing bodies money that they are wasting. So there's one club that has lost a member and a coach because of their ridiculous approach to CRBs.

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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by meatballs » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:58 am

Scots_Charles_River wrote:
Dave McCraw wrote:
Scots_Charles_River wrote:...... but if it protects one more child or prevents abuse then we have to do it.
There is definitely no drop in teacher course applicants or numbers due to our system of checks for Child and Vunerable adult Protection. Budget cuts for schools/centres/councils have reduced opportunites more than any form of CRB/CP checks. This is since 94 when I started teaching.

Nick
Male teachers in primary school? Although I wouldn't say it is due directly to CRB checking. :)
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Re: CRB's (move from CODE)

Post by Flo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:28 am

I had my CRB returned a week or so ago because they changed the form from when it was accepted (stamped may 20th) to some other stage in the process (July 19th). I'd sent the blessed thing off to be processed at the start of May, when I started in a new job.

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