Raft Guide Training with WWI

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JayC
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Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by JayC » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:02 pm

Hi all, I'm looking at taking a raft guide training course later this year with White Water International and just wondered if anyone had any experience with them?

Cheers, J

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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:11 pm

I wouldn't reccomend going for (much less paying for) training and assessment with anyone who isn't intending to employ you off the back of that training; The training itself will hold little value (though obviously you'll learn stuff from it). Conversely a positive employer reference, or making contacts through your boss/collegues will be invaluble in securing future work.
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by Gwynfor » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:46 pm

Agree with what TheKrikkitWars said - rafting companies should be stumping up for the costs of training their employees..... Just like most other industries do!
Training courses that are not anything to do with a rafting operation will usually be of limited value in the eyes of a potential employee since you just cannot get a feel for client interaction without having some clients around to practice interacting with!
Certainly all of the rafting companies that I have worked for have been active in training new guides without charging for it. Sometimes a company will ask for a commitment to work for them for a season once training has finished, and may even have base jobs available while training such as photography, raft repair, cooking, etc.

The only worthwhile exceptions to this that I can think of are the various rafting modules offered by the NZ polytech courses (usually based on grade 2-3 rivers) which are a good introduction for newbies, or if you have a lot of spare money to go on a big boating mission, Esprit's Wild programme;
http://www.whitewater.ca/wild.html

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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by jackbay131 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:48 pm

Surely a raft training course is simply compulsory for the assesment and thus doesnt matter who its done with aslong as its a bcu level 1 training course? followed up by bcu standard assesment? or am i just over simplifying this? did my training course , paid for it , followed by site specific assesment by bcu qualified coaches now work as a casual raft guide ?
Pay cheques , here today , gone tomorrow.

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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:56 pm

Theoretically yes, you just need to do a course and be assessed by a suitable level 4 or level 5 guide who's part of the ERC scheme. Practically however, you're much more likely to be employed as a first time guide if you go through the whole procedure at a single centre; and then your references at your first employer will carry much more weight than any bit of paper (The level one and two guide certs are in many respects almost worthless, as every operation is going to need to put you through training specific to their river, facilities and equipment). Definately if you plan on working worldwide, it's the contacts and positive employer references that you need (oh and a good standard of rafting).
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by jackbay131 » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:01 pm

Ah this makes sense as i did as you said all my stuff including first aid with the same centre and now work with them.
just whilst we'r on about rafting got any idea where i can find a sylabus or ",must be able to.." list for raft level 2 , excluding the bit about doing 3 rivers
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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:35 pm

Email the BCU, the rafting quals are a byzantine mess.
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Dug
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by Dug » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:06 pm

Yeah man def try and get a job off the back of the training course if you are going as you will forget stuff etc very quickly if you don't get a season in after training.
If you do the training I've found that every country etc has their own qualification system so don't expect to get a job outside of the Wales/England on the back of a BCU quali! You've gotta have experince or go thru the next countrys training or test anyways.
As for the company I've not no idea but I'd recomend the training course the Trywern centre runs, went there as an experinced kayaker 3 years ago for the initial training before going out to work with PGL in France (sadly the rafting centre there is closed now). With Trywern being so damn small it makes it a much more technical place to train than anywhere I've rafted Since and can't fault the instruction or equipment etc.

Doug

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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by salamandaar » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:17 am

To become a level 2 guide, you need to be signed off as a level 1 on 3 rivers, only one of which can be an artifical course. You also need to have completed a level 1 SRT or WRT course. More information here.
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by cswalker » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:06 pm

TheKrikkitWars wrote:The level one and two guide certs are in many respects almost worthless
Crap!

Any good raft coach is going to use the content of these awards as the framework to training ANY new guide and it is fundamental to their development!

As for where to do your training, again it does not matter as any respectable company in the UK will value your training as it is the current standard, however it is the post training / pre assessment period of consolidation / experience that should matter as this is where the candidate will learn site specifics / protocols / tricks and techniques.

There are many schemes out there and to be perfectly frank the scheme Jon Gorman et al wrote I think is fantastic and one of the best worldwide, it provides and simple understandable and logical progression in guide development that almost every respectable international company will actually mimic / invariably be the same in what they teach so to say the BCU system is a
TheKrikkitWars wrote:byzantine mess
is utter rubbish. The difference is other companies worldwide will go deeper into other specifics that are necessary for their operations.

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TheKrikkitWars
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by TheKrikkitWars » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:52 pm

cswalker wrote:There are many schemes out there and to be perfectly frank the scheme Jon Gorman et al wrote I think is fantastic and one of the best worldwide, it provides and simple understandable and logical progression in guide development that almost every respectable international company will actually mimic / invariably be the same in what they teach so to say the BCU system is a
TheKrikkitWars wrote:byzantine mess
is utter rubbish. The difference is other companies worldwide will go deeper into other specifics that are necessary for their operations.
After, actually seeing a complete copy of the sylabus (which Phil posted, and I'd previously never been able to obtain despite several requests to various people both by email and once in person), I actually agree with you; though thats the first time I've ever seen it complete. Byzantine mess might more accurately refer to the BCU's handling of any qualification which is not in high demand publicly than to the specifics of the rafting scheme.

I still stand by my statement that having the bit of paper in an of itself isn't worth much (it's certainly not very transferable); But to clarify I hadn't meant to infer that the skills that are required to get said certificate are worthless, as clearly they're the very basis of guiding.

Why must I always end up making statements that are so excessively strongly worded as to get your goat Chris?
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cswalker
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by cswalker » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:08 pm

Hahaha, it's not you buddy, I'm just passionate about it rafting, coming up to twenty years as a guide....

Blobby
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by Blobby » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:57 am

Hey folks, maybe I can shed a little light on this subject from an employers point of view?

There is no "governing body" for rafting in the U.K. and there are various organisations offering raft guide training that are all pretty much working from a very similar framework. There is the BCU, SRA, White Water International and there are also other companies offering IRF courses.

The bottom line from our point of view as an employer is that we take all of the above tickets as a "competence" & "record of training" as well as oher international certificates. All guides are also looked at on the river and assessed/trained/familiarised on the river that they are working.

As there is no unity in the rafing community accross the different training bodies we use a technical expert that is a certified raft guide trainer in one of the above bodies to assess and sign off guides & trip leaders individually. The only system that I as an emplyer find hard to work with is the BCU system as it is very site specific & there is no BCU training carried out in Scotland.

With regards to paying for training, we sometimes offer to pay for courses and train guides & offer experience as part of there job but at the end of the day all employees need to earn there keep in any job. I have seen trainee guides take one or two seasons to get up to the standard that we mlike to see before being let loose with clients and that is when guides are useful to companies so it comes down to some form of comitment.

We are always happy for people to come along and sit on and gain experience for free in return for a bit of mucking in and helping out with handing out kit, washing wetsuits etc. and to be honest that is where we judge people. If your happy hanging up pissy wetsuits and getting the craick with customers & are not just there for the glory you are more likely to get employed as it's all part of the job.

So in a nutshell all training is good, a variety of river based experience when on training is better, and we don't employ guides without seeing & assessing them on the river that they will be working on regardless of qualification.

Hope this helps

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feelingjustfine
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by feelingjustfine » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:10 pm

I did my training with whitewater international and bumped into andy and ian from highland on the way home and was working for them full time within the month, that was with just a level 1 so i wouldn't say level 1's and 2's are worthless at all. The course it self is run by john mason and ben starkie who are probably two of the top raft guides and trainers in the country and offer a good deal with credit days in return for money off the course. The course is the same as the irf or sra one with the main difference being you don't have to pay a yearly membership for wwi and you get a more comprehensive documentation of what you have done at the end. I thought good of them and got work straight away and have managed to get work for a fair few companies freelance...think thats about all one expects out of a 300 quid course anyway:)
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Chris Gibbens
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by Chris Gibbens » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:03 pm

Dunolly Adventures is hostng a SRA Raft Guide training course on 16th – 20th October 2010.

Give them a call or e-mail and they can give you more information on it.

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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by ovac » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:39 am

Check out the following raft and river guide course on http://www.outdoorinstructoracademy.co.uk/guide.aspx
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JayC
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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by JayC » Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:14 pm

Cheers for the input everyone, I've got something sorted now for October.

Ovac I had looked at the course that EE runs in Nepal but I'll be out there early November anyway for a trip on the Karnali and flights are already booked

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Re: Raft Guide Training with WWI

Post by yakist » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:57 pm

Blobby wrote:There is no "governing body" for rafting in the U.K. and there are various organisations offering raft guide training that are all pretty much working from a very similar framework. There is the BCU, SRA, White Water International and there are also other companies offering IRF courses.
There is governing bodys for rafting, the English White Water Rafting Committee runs rafting south of the border! http://www.bcu.org.uk/our-sport/white-water-rafting/
Worth a look at this site aswell: http://www.britishraftteam.co.uk/index. ... e-a-guide-

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